Warrior Powermaster Ruling

[876GEL15]

Discussion: Legality of a Powermaster.
My personal over analyzed legal explanation: it would depend on who has the stick, and what position. Goalies, always legal. The older, bigger, stronger the player, the better the probability. Everyone else close scrutiny. If the player began the game with it, and later referee determines that it is in violation, depending on why he now has made that decision. Probably from the player having uncontrolled checks. That penalty served and the shaft is removed for the remainder of game, not the head. There is no additional penalty charged for Rule 1-24a violation.

Rule 1-24a: prohibitions relating to equipment, in opinion of the official no player shall wear or carry equipment that endangers that ind. or other players.

Ask the official before the game what is his interpretation of the rule, and how does he apply it. Be cleaver if the ref. knows what you are talking about then you know he is an on the ball up-to-date official. If he looks at you like you have a 3rd eye, he don't know jack and chances are you will just confuse him and have him watching you close from the beginning of the game.

Justification:
A.) Remember the referee might not even be aware of the stick, so he cannot call a violation when he does not know if in fact what your particular shaft is and could possibly be harmful to yourself and others.
B.) Official is aware of the stick, opposing defenseman begin the game using them. D-man (1) is 14 yr old Soph. 5'4", 125 and 1st year varsity. D-man(2) is 19 yr old PG (Post-graduate) 6'3", 180 4 years V experience. What is fair? and in the spirit of the game and fair play? D(1) is tired out by 3rd quarter and has wild checks. Give him that penalty & remove shaft from the game. Nothing additional, b/c how can his stick be illegal when D(2) is less than 20 yards away playing with his. Both began the game with the stick- on the surface equal appearance
C.) Same players: referee is aware of the stick, watches pre-games of D(1) & D(2) and sees the considerable size advantage of D(2) compared to everyone else. Tells D(2) to remove stick for before game begins, b/c of his size, skill, and experience the potential that he can seriously injure someone has increased. D(1) judgment call, he can use his or you can ask to have it removed, b/c his potential to injure others has not increased. Should D(2) try to use it and is caught, Violation Rule 5-5: illegal Crosse Personal foul 1 min. NR penalty & Rule 5-10a: unsportsmanlike conduct Personal foul 3 min. NR penalty. Total 4 min. personal foul NR, (you are only allowed 5 min/per game before ejection)
D.) For it to be legal and if allowed the player D(2) using the shaft must begin the game using it. At no time during the game may any other teammate D(3) use that shaft on the field of play. An official must assume that the player D(3) is going to use the stick to hurt someone. Rule 1-24a. This approach will prevent any end of game retaliation ploys.

Any questions, comments, suggestions, anything? Does this seem viable? I would like to know what other officials think or if they know of a different ruling.

[Snake~eyes]

What is the powermaster? Link to it maybe? Then I'l lrespond with my ruling.

[LaXDaVe]

Its a 6 lb D-pole...

[cloo24]

it's a training stick the powermaster attack shaft is 4 pouns the goalie is 6 and the defence is 8 pounds supposedly it helps your mucles but i think it would mess up your throwing and i think i'ts another warrior gimmick

[sumSum]

4 pound attack pole as I understood it.

[Snake~eyes]

Sorry but you cannot say one player can use it and another can depending on their size. I don't see how its illegal. If he makes uncontrolled checks then it is a slash. Enforce it just like any other sticks, maybe even a little tighter because this shaft may hurt a little more than you're regular aluminum. Remeber a player does NOT have to make contact for it to be a slash. I'm saying this is legal unless my assignor says otherwise.

[LaXDaVe]

Ummm...If a defender that weighs 250 lbs and is 6; 3'', and your like 5' 4'' and he hits you in the head with an 8 lb pole by accident, what do you thinks going to happen? The least of your worries is a concussion.

[876GEL15]

It should be legal, but read again the rule on not allowing a player to use equipment that could injure himself or others. Also, does using a shaft like that violate the basic unspoken rule of lacrosse, that everyone is there to have fun, have a good time, and be safe.

Devils adovcate: As an official you see a D-man getting ready to use one of these shafts 8lbs shafts in a game. My first thought is to INTENT, what are his intentions for using such a heavy stick in game play. And a stick that heavy does dramatically increase the possibilty that he can really hurt someone severely with it. My answer is that it is his intention to use that heavy of a stick to hurt someone.

Another point: this is one that MOM's will appericate. Most boys in HS are between 13-18 years old. PUBERITY time for all of them. That don't not have complete control over their bodies and a severe blow from an 8lb metal rod could result in some possible permenant damage. Broken, wrists, forearms, collarbones, ankles, etc. How would you feel if you were the referee that allowed someone to use that stick and injury like above occured as a direct result. Lacrosse is a contact, violent sport, but honestly do you think that shaft for game use is within the scope of the spirit of the game, and even good sportsmanship?

My final verdict and how I am going to run my games, they are a NO GO - ILLEGAL. Use them in practice, against the wall, whenever, but they should never be used against other players. If the kid wants a more solid, heavier stick, try to find a wood, or a basic aluminum shaft.

Comments?NO GO - ILLEGAL.

[LaXDaVe]

So what happens if he misses and wraps you in the knee cap with a 8 pound pole? There goes lacrosse. Forever. Most likely, anyway..

[cloo24]

was that for or against using it in a game laxdave

[LaXDaVe]

Lol, very much against considering I have bad knees.

[cloo24]

gotcha and 876GEL15 do you have the rule book memorized or something dag dude you have so many posts with all these crazy rules i've never heard of

[Snake~eyes]

I based my above ruling on jus what I've heard. Basically I would like to see the stick in person and see how heavy it actually ways, I have a hard time imagining 8lb sticks, I know some defensemen play with shafts that are very heavy but not sure exactly how heavy, the ones with wood in the inside. Again, once I get a chance to hold it then I will surely make a definite decision. But like I said above, you cannot say one player can use it because of his size, there are no rules in the rulebook that base anything off of weight or height so therefore you cannot say that, if you say its illegal it has to be illegal for everyone.

[LaXDaVe]

Its an 8 lb d-pole used for training the forearms during practice, not games.

[CDLax2]

i have one and its great...

[sumSum]

Its not eight pounds and its not a d-pole! Unless you have seen it available from a retailer I've yet to see...

[smitt5168]

ya i dont want to get hit one. my body is already pretty f*%&ed up from lax with injuries. but someone said something about collarbones and i got a response. if they hit you on your collarbone it'll break with any shaft. 3lbs of pressure to break it. it's like the weakest bone in your body.


if a defenseman wants to hurt you, he will. if he can't do it with hits he'll take cheap shots. so a cheap shot with a power master, that's just frekin insane.

[LaXDaVe]

it comes in D-pole, goalie, and a/m sizes babe.

[smitt5168]

i know, but i'm just saying. what the one you would piss your pants from?

[CDLax2]

i wouldnt use it in a game anyways, they are very weak

[cloo24]

really? considering the are so heavy and i think they are not hollow so thats gotta be pretty strong

[sumSum]

That would be my impression Cloo.

Dave, thanks. I didnt see anywhere they were available in Goalie or D. Or maybe I did...whatev!

[cloo24]

is steel a strong metel though? cause i have no idea about that one i could very easily be wrong

[sumSum]

Think of it this way: it was supposed to keep the Titanic afloat. The only problem was that the steel was a bad batch so it sank.

If you were to use steel to build the Titanic, its gotta be darn strong. They probably still use it today though I dont know for sure.

[CDLax2]

its weak.. trust me... I dropped it on the ground and a huge piece chipped off..... I thought it would be strong also but it really isnt

[TheKOB]

An uncontrolled check (like winding up) is a slash either way.

In terms of a powermaster being illegal for game play, that's stupid. It's a shaft, same as everything else. At any rate, who plays for the sole intent of injuring someone else? That's stupid. Also, should wood shafts be illegal? how about G forces? should there be a maximum weight for shafts? Nope. Lighter is better in terms of fast checks to dislodge the ball, that is the purpose of defense. If some idiot is waving a stick around trying to hurt someone, two things'll happen. First, he'll get a load of penalties (but not on the stick). Second, the guy he's "guarding" will score so many goals on him (because of one's inability to check stick) that his coach'll take him out of the game.

Anyways, if you can handle it, use it. Just don't complain when you get your ankles broken by some attackman. Limiting equipment like that has never been something that the rule book does. That rule is there to stop people from putting a nail through their shaft and stuff like that.

[Paul_Gait_RULZ]

why the hell would u use it though....if you wanna hurt people use a hickory LP, dont u se a heavy weithed LP that you couldnt even do anything with...hell the old cement fille poles were lighter than 8 LBS when that was the gimmick to enforce a shaft

[TheKOB]

I just got one and it seems sturdier than what was mentioned, although I haven't dropped it on the ground. I might let some of my hs players use it this weekend, and I'll let you guys know how it goes.

And if it comes back broken they'll be running laps...

[cbadman]

I was thinking about breaking out the powermaster when we play our rival :laugh but then I decided that a) I didn't want to be an a-hole, and b) I wouldn't be able to control it.

[WarriorLax22]

Originally posted by 876GEL15
Goalies, always legal.
what if the goalie runs out of the cage, loses the ball, then has to check to regain possession?

[BuCon67]

How could it not be strong...I mean common...4 pounds of solid steel vs. 5-6 ounces of say...anything else...I don't know for sure but it sounds pretty tough...if it was made out of aluminum then no...but it's steel...

[ColtsLax]

Good point, to bad this thread is over a year old. We really have to get an expiration date on threads

[LaxRef]

We really have to get an expiration date on threads

No! We want to be able to link to the old threads so we don't have to re-invent the wheel every time someone asks a question that has already been answered.

[CTLaxer]

Well, since people are talking about it, might as well chime in as I missed it the first time around.

It's an issue of safety. A hollow 7oz shaft doesn't do nearly as much damage to a body as a solid, 8lbs steel rod. What happens when you get hit in the forearm with a regular titanium shaft....it stings a little bit and bruises a tad. What happens when an 8lbs rod hits your forearm? Bones can and do get broken. I'm not big on physics, but I do believe that more force is generated from a hit with more weight since it has more inertia and energy behind it.

Also, the warning labels on the weighted practice shafts tell you to use them only for practice and not in games because of potential injuries. If anyone has one, have one of your buddies whack you with a regular shaft and then have them swing at you with the weighted shaft...then tell me the weighted shaft won't injure players on the field even if legal checks are used.

Legal or not, none of my players will ever be allowed to step on the field using a weighted shaft because I will not endanger the opposing players like that.

[LaxRef]

Just my 2 cents:

I would not allow such a stick to be used in a game because of the danger of injury; our first priority is to make the game safe. The rules don't disallow having a stick with razor-sharp edges, but I wouldn't allow that, either!

However, I would not rule it to be an illegal crosse (i.e., if a goal had been scored with it immediately prior to discovering that it was being used, I would not disallow the goal). I'm undecided about the penalty since I haven't held one to see what it feels like, but it would fall somewhere between "Get it out of the game" to a 3:00 NR USC. If the stick was in the game and used to injure someone, there would be an ejection.

I guess a key question is this: what possible reason is there for using one of these sticks in a game besides injuring people? Aren't they heavy enough to slow down all of your standard stick movements (catch, pass, shoot, cradle, dodge, poke, slap)?

[CTLaxer]

The only possible use for this stick in a game situation would be intimidation and injury.

LaxRef, you correctly assume that it does slow down all movements and makes general life with a stick in your hand quite hard and unbearable. I would go so far as to say that no high school player would have the strength or endurance to use one for the entire length of a game, let alone a half.

[LL71]

Its not a gimic it helped a team amte of mine alot with power and accuracy, I used a shaft filled with sand for like a month and a half and I have noticed quite a difference in power. As far as the legality of it, im no Ref but i think it should be illegal because its not meant for game play its a training tool and its 4,6,8 lbs so It can cause some serious damage, and the player using it know it.

[ColtsLax]

what about a wood pole. you can do as much damage with that. Ive used one coming on a year now, so i know what i can and cant do. My friend tried to use it but i took it away cause he was slashin really bad. it depends on the user

[LaxRef]

what about a wood pole. you can do as much damage with that. Ive used one coming on a year now, so i know what i can and cant do. My friend tried to use it but i took it away cause he was slashin really bad. it depends on the user

Hollow metal < wood < solid metal.

[AZReDWiNG]

I'm not big on physics, but I do believe that more force is generated from a hit with more weight since it has more inertia and energy behind it.


I am. :D

The swinging pole first of all is hard to get swinging (Newton's 1st Law), and therefore hard to stop swinging. Since a force is being applied to the pole and nothing else is applying an opposite force, the pole is accelerating. According to F = ma (Newton's second law), the greater the acceleration and/or greater the mass, the greater the force.

So the mass of the training pole doesn't require as much acceleration as a normal pole to apply the same force. If you can move a training pole as fast as a normal pole (or nearly so), you'd apply almost 8 times the force! (6-8 oz. vs 4 lbs?)

Plus it's got inertia: if you throw a slap on someone's hand, that slap is going to want to continue into the hand. This can lead to broken hands (I don't feel like calculating the force from the pole and how much force a hand can take, but trust me on this one).

[TheKOB]

there's nothing really in the rules forbiding a stick like this, and what there is seems to be open to interpretation.

If a kid goes into a game with it, fine. If he checks with it, fine. If he does any sort of thing that would be a slash with another stick, then that's a penalty, same as any other stick. If it was illegal, the NCAA would pass a rule against it, just like they did against the big nasty, and just like they would with a razor blade shaft (that poor d-man's hands....). A stick filled with sand would be illegal, since it would be altered to give an advantage.

If you say this stick is illegal, but wood is fine, where's the line? If there's no limit, then it's all subjective, and then what's the point of the rules anyways?

That being said, I wouldn't use mine in a game, I'd rather use titanium or a STX Core. If I didn't have another stick or they broke, then I'd use it.

[LaxRef]

there's nothing really in the rules forbiding a stick like this, and what there is seems to be open to interpretation.

If a kid goes into a game with it, fine. If he checks with it, fine. If he does any sort of thing that would be a slash with another stick, then that's a penalty, same as any other stick. If it was illegal, the NCAA would pass a rule against it, just like they did against the big nasty, and just like they would with a razor blade shaft (that poor d-man's hands....). A stick filled with sand would be illegal, since it would be altered to give an advantage.

If you say this stick is illegal, but wood is fine, where's the line? If there's no limit, then it's all subjective, and then what's the point of the rules anyways?

So you wouldn't rule a razor blade shaft illegal right now, you'd wait for the
NCAA to make a ruling? :chuckle:

I would have no problem invoking the "any other act considered unsportsmanlike by the officials" clause on one of these heavy shafts.

As to the wood debate, wood has always been allowed, since it used to be the only thing around. It just so happens that hollow aluminum is lighter and came along later. I don't think anyone has a problem with innovations that make the game safer. But a shaft that's heavier than wood, well, that's the wrong direction.

[TheKOB]

So you wouldn't rule a razor blade shaft illegal right now, you'd wait for the
NCAA to make a ruling? :chuckle:


If I did, I wouldn't have to wait very long.... :rofl:

And that would only be for a factory produced shaft, something that we know wouldn't happen. If some player taped razor blades on it, that would be disallowed by other rules.

[CTLaxer]

TheKOB: I've heard of players filling shafts up with sand to intentionally hurt players of rival schools...by your logic you're saying that that is now legal in a sense because they can buy a shaft that acheives the same thing as filling a shaft with sand without having those pesky other rules that disallow it.

The difference between a wood shaft and a solid metal shaft is this: One of them hurts a little more than normal and one of them injures. It shouldn't be hard to figure out which does which.

The rules do not specify a maximum weight to a shaft based on materials. My thinking behind this is because it's never come up before. Kids are bigger, stronger, and faster these days. It's not rare to find someone on a high school team that could easily wield an 6 pound shaft without breaking a sweat as easily as anyone of us could use a 7oz titanium one. And that is where the problem with this issue lies

[3rdPersonPlural]

I spoke to our assigner about this issue last night. He and I agreed that weighted shafts have no redeeming value in a game situation and that in our neck of the woods would draw a 3 minute NR and a game expulsion. It is our opinion as to what constitutes dangerous equipment and since we'll warn all the coaches prior to the season that we'll have none of it, the conduct foul is in line as well.

[TheKOB]

TheKOB: I've heard of players filling shafts up with sand to intentionally hurt players of rival schools...by your logic you're saying that that is now legal in a sense because they can buy a shaft that acheives the same thing as filling a shaft with sand without having those pesky other rules that disallow it.


yep. That's just my interpretation of the rules, a player altering their stick for an advantage.

If it's not legal, then there should be something in the rules specifically disallowing it, or the NCAA should specifically disallow it like they did with the big nasty. If you disallow it because it's dangerous, then it becomes a matter of judgement and not a matter of rules. How much weight is too much weight?

If a league wants to disallow it because of the weight, that's fine, as the poster above me is doing...but I don't see anything in the rules that says it shouldn't be used...it's made out of metal right? By that same logic, you can say they can't use hickory (because of it's weight) but they can use ash or something lighter...

[LaxRef]

If it's not legal, then there should be something in the rules specifically disallowing it, or the NCAA should specifically disallow it like they did with the big nasty. If you disallow it because it's dangerous, then it becomes a matter of judgement and not a matter of rules. How much weight is too much weight?

As I said before, it's not illegal in a "goal comes off the board if scored with it" sense, but it is illegal in a

any other act considered unsportsmanlike by the officials

sense.

[TheKOB]

As I said before, it's not illegal in a "goal comes off the board if scored with it" sense, but it is illegal in a



sense.

I guess that just irritates me that it's that open ended. That opens it up to so much interpretation. Part of the point for rules is to have it standardized so that you can play by those same rules in any state. Also, by that statement, there's A LOT that can be considered unsportsmanlike that goes on in the game today.

It seems that just because it's a shaft created to be heavy, that's why there's a discussion about it. No one has the same qualms about hickory shafts, because they're a part of the history of the game, and no one uses them. I'd say that people are more injured by wood shafts than the powermaster as well, so I don't really think it should be an issue until it starts happening, and I doubt it will start happening.

There has also been a precedent set by the NCAA disallowing the Big Nasty. I say if it's so horrible, they'll create a rule against it. Until then, play on.

[RockStar]

.......No one has the same qualms about hickory shafts, because they're a part of the history of the game, and no one uses them. I'd say that people are more injured by wood shafts than the powermaster as well, so I don't really think it should be an issue until it starts happening, and I doubt it will start happening.....

Last Friday, I held a trainer shaft in one hand and a hickory shaft in the other. I also did the same test to compare the trainer to a trad-strung Mohawk Mission Head on a Mohawk Ti stick.

Difference is staggering. The trainer is far heavier than both the hickory pole, and one of the heaviest complete stick combos I can think of together.

Bottom line, a trainer is nothing more than a goon stick, and if I spot one in a game, it's coming out of the game as unsafe equipment. If I notice the use of a trainer after calling a slash/illegal crosscheck/high-stick/etc, well, there's going to be more than the normal penalty.

(That said, sneaking a goon stick by me or any other official is pretty easy - just fill a Ti shaft with mortar cement, or even fill it with a shaved-down wood shaft. I really have no way of knowing it's a goon stick unless you break it.)

[LaxRef]

Last Friday, I held a trainer shaft in one hand and a hickory shaft in the other. I also did the same test to compare the trainer to a trad-strung Mohawk Mission Head on a Mohawk Ti stick.

Difference is staggering. The trainer is far heavier than both the hickory pole, and one of the heaviest complete stick combos I can think of together.

Bottom line, a trainer is nothing more than a goon stick, and if I spot one in a game, it's coming out of the game as unsafe equipment. If I notice the use of a trainer after calling a slash/illegal crosscheck/high-stick/etc, well, there's going to be more than the normal penalty.

(That said, sneaking a goon stick by me or any other official is pretty easy - just fill a Ti shaft with mortar cement, or even fill it with a shaved-down wood shaft. I really have no way of knowing it's a goon stick unless you break it.)

But if you do break it, you get a Sammy-Sosa-Style ejection!

[laxref39]

I am. :D

The swinging pole first of all is hard to get swinging (Newton's 1st Law), and therefore hard to stop swinging. Since a force is being applied to the pole and nothing else is applying an opposite force, the pole is accelerating. According to F = ma (Newton's second law), the greater the acceleration and/or greater the mass, the greater the force.

So the mass of the training pole doesn't require as much acceleration as a normal pole to apply the same force. If you can move a training pole as fast as a normal pole (or nearly so), you'd apply almost 8 times the force! (6-8 oz. vs 4 lbs?)

Plus it's got inertia: if you throw a slap on someone's hand, that slap is going to want to continue into the hand. This can lead to broken hands (I don't feel like calculating the force from the pole and how much force a hand can take, but trust me on this one).
Because the pole is that much heavier, it takes that much more energy to get it back to position to throw another check! Yes the force coming down comes down more quickly but with less control and manueverability. Ask anyone who played defense in the 60's 70's or early 80's, they would rather have a pole that weighs less! Bottom line, better control with a lighter pole! :thumbsup:

[ragnut]

How about this scenario: kid gets hurt by powermaster, and his parents sue whoever the deepest pocket is. Jury hears there's a sticker on the shaft that says to the effect "not intended for game use." (by the way, does anyone know the EXACT wording on the shaft?). This is not a good scenario, and a coach or ref would probably be wise to not knowingly OK the use of this shaft in a game.

[RockStar]

How about this scenario: kid gets hurt by powermaster, and his parents sue whoever the deepest pocket is. Jury hears there's a sticker on the shaft that says to the effect "not intended for game use." (by the way, does anyone know the EXACT wording on the shaft?). This is not a good scenario, and a coach or ref would probably be wise to not knowingly OK the use of this shaft in a game.

That's exactly why I, and others would never knowingly allow such a stick into the game, it's nothing more than a "murder weapon".

[sailorslax88]

it's a training stick the powermaster attack shaft is 4 pouns the goalie is 6 and the defence is 8 pounds supposedly it helps your mucles but i think it would mess up your throwing and i think i'ts another warrior gimmick

its not a gimmick, its the same as using a stick full of sand, the just made a permanent shaft

[LilLaxBro]

Hey if this stick did not use the fact that it was 8lbs as a marketing ploy and just came out saying it was stronger than most sticks and not advertised as a training stick would it be considered illeagal? no its the player

[sailorslax88]

4 pound attack pole as I understood it.


only 2 pounds

[PowPow]

Ive read as much of the thread as i could and ive thought about it like this...

I cant ever remember reading a rule about how much a stick can weigh. Like "No attack/middie stick may weigh more then 3lbs and defense 5lbs" ive never seen that so i would rule it legal.

If they pull you for usuing it though, wouildnt you be able to say "What rule says i cant use this pole?" because so far ive seen nothing of the sort.

[RockStar]

..........

If they pull you for usuing it though, wouildnt you be able to say "What rule says i cant use this pole?" because so far ive seen nothing of the sort.
Most rulesets require a referee to remove any equipment that they feel is not safe. Wording varies, consequences vary.

Bottom line, most refs who know what a training shaft is, and sees someone using it would remove it from a game on these grounds.

[laxfan25]

But under NFHS rules, a coach could call for a double-horn and question the application of the rule, and I would be hard-pressed to find anything in the NFHS book that would back up this stick being illegal.
As far as it being dangerous, I think you'd have to wait to see it in use, and whether unnecessarily hard checks are being delivered.
As PowWow alluded to, there is nothing in the rules that says I can't have a solid aluminum, titanium or steel shaft, other than they fact that you wouldn't be able to do anything with them. I think you have to wait for a crime to be committed before youo could penalize anything. Just my thought.

[WHEELAX2]

I don't know how much more dangerous a heavier thicker handle can be than a solid wood shaft.

[PowPow]

Well i mean, are they pulling it becasue its solid or because it weighs to much?

If they pull because its solid...

Then Harrows, wood poles, and most other composite shafts like Connor Gills pole and those Brine poles should be pulled as well. Its jsut like that, made of a diffrent material.

Its they pull it becasue it weighs to much...

Theres no rule about to my knowledge any weight requirements for sticks or anything really in NFHS. Some older wooden shafts used today are jsut as heavy or a little lighter then PowerTrainers anyways. And what about the older Warrior Titaniums? They were bricks, but they didnt say anything about those, and they pack jsut as much of a punch.

Im aware Warrior says "Not intended for Feild play" and i also and unsure of why you would use one in a game. The msot i could see besides one on one training is at a team practice, but still, why use a 2-4lbs stick in a game? Lol.

[Woodenstick]

The 2005 posts have already covered this ground pretty well.

1. As previously stated, NFHS rule 1-10 states that "No player shall wear or carry items that, in the opinion of the referee, endanger that player or other players."

2. As shown by most of the referee comments above, even though the rules specs for crosses do not cover weight, most referees are not going to allow a stick in the game when it bears a legend "Not intended for field play" and weighs so much that the only possible reason to use the stick is mayhem.

3. As laxref pointed out, the stick probably would not be treated as an illegal crosse for penalty purposes, since that seems to require a violation of the crosse specs. But the referee would have at least 3 other options:

A. Toss the stick out under rule 1-10, w/o penalty. This is similar to what happens to a player with cleats that are too long, under ruling 1.9.1.

B. Give out a USC penalty.

For example, if I thought a player switched sticks to use the powermaster so that he could revenge an earlier hit or injure a player, I would have no hesitation about giving a USC penalty just for bringing the stick on the field, never mind using it.

C. Give a slash penalty if the powermaster stick is used in an uncontrolled way. Given the weight, a hard swing with such a pole is going to be uncontrolled. As our resident physics geniuses pointed out, mass times speed = momenteum, and the same formula determines the power needed to stop the swing as well as start it.

[WHEELAX2]

but "not intended for field play" and illegal for field play are two entirely differnet things..

baseball cleats are not intended for field lacrosse, but people use them..

football arm pads are not intended for field lacrosse, but people use them.

hockey gloves are not intended for field lacrosse, and people use them

[TheKOB]

I agree partially with C, but there is no way you can say that a swing with the pole would be uncontrolled. More force does not mean more uncontrollability.

This goes under the problems I have with Unec Roughness. If no other rules have been violated, then why make up a rule where the ref can be subjective to this extreme? That leads to basic differences in play calling, which negates the whole purpose of rules in the first place which is to provide a standardized way to play the game. This opens the door for refs being viewed, or just plain being, biased. If you're going to set a weight specification then set it, but don't fudge it because it doesn't meet your view of fair play, even though it meets the NCAA's and NFHS's. Call a slash a slash, but this is going overboard.

[WHEELAX2]

I spoke to our assigner about this issue last night. He and I agreed that weighted shafts have no redeeming value in a game situation and that in our neck of the woods would draw a 3 minute NR and a game expulsion. It is our opinion as to what constitutes dangerous equipment and since we'll warn all the coaches prior to the season that we'll have none of it, the conduct foul is in line as well.


why do they not have a redeeming value in a game? and what weight is legal for play??

will there be scales on the sideline?

[laxfan25]

there is no way you can say that a swing with the pole would be uncontrolled. More force does not mean more uncontrollability.

This goes under the problems I have with Unec Roughness. If no other rules have been violated, then why make up a rule where the ref can be subjective to this extreme? That leads to basic differences in play calling, which negates the whole purpose of rules in the first place which is to provide a standardized way to play the game. This opens the door for refs being viewed, or just plain being, biased. If you're going to set a weight specification then set it, but don't fudge it because it doesn't meet your view of fair play, even though it meets the NCAA's and NFHS's. Call a slash a slash, but this is going overboard.

Mr. O'B, we discuss again! I remember our back and forth on the UR as well.
As you can see from my earlier post, in and of itself I don't see how you can penalize a stick for being too heavy - but how it is used is certainly under my control. However, I DO say that a swing with a stick can certainly be uncontrolled, and the harder you are swinging, the more likely you are to get a slash call. Remember that under the specific RULES, a slash can be called even if contact is not made with the player or the stick if the official feels that the check had the potential to injure. I'm very familiar with the concept of a hard stick check, and most pass muster with me, but I have on occasion called a slash, even when the check only got stick - when the check was out of control. (By out of control, I mean that the player could reasonably stop the check in mid-delivery, and that it was delivered with excessive force).

[TheKOB]

Mr. O'B, we discuss again! I remember our back and forth on the UR as well.
As you can see from my earlier post, in and of itself I don't see how you can penalize a stick for being too heavy - but how it is used is certainly under my control. However, I DO say that a swing with a stick can certainly be uncontrolled, and the harder you are swinging, the more likely you are to get a slash call. Remember that under the specific RULES, a slash can be called even if contact is not made with the player or the stick if the official feels that the check had the potential to injure. I'm very familiar with the concept of a hard stick check, and most pass muster with me, but I have on occasion called a slash, even when the check only got stick - when the check was out of control. (By out of control, I mean that the player could reasonably stop the check in mid-delivery, and that it was delivered with excessive force).

I agree with you, and I've called a slash (one) that didn't hit anyone (attakman trying to show off). I don't think a check that gets stick and only stick should ever be called a slash. As in the UR thread, I don't think there should be a penalty for checking too hard. It's the area where it hits, not the force of the hit. If you take into account the latter, it gets way too subjective.

[spenny]

As in the UR thread, I don't think there should be a penalty for checking too hard. It's the area where it hits, not the force of the hit. If you take into account the latter, it gets way too subjective.

what about intent to injure?

[laxfan25]

I agree with you, and I've called a slash (one) that didn't hit anyone (attakman trying to show off). I don't think a check that gets stick and only stick should ever be called a slash. As in the UR thread, I don't think there should be a penalty for checking too hard. It's the area where it hits, not the force of the hit. If you take into account the latter, it gets way too subjective.
I will admit that very few stick on stick checks get flagged, but on the UR side, it is not only where the hit occurs that is taken into account. - force is factored in.
The thing to realize is that the entire process of officiating contests is entirely subjective - a lax ref is making a thousand judgements a game, on every interaction between players. Yes, there will be differences in judgement between two officials, but hopefully there is consistency throughtout the game so you have an idea of what is being called and what is being allowed. I will also grant you that in areas like SC you likely have officials that haven't played the game, which is very challenging in my view. You also have players with no history in the game, and part of what I try to do is educate the players, especially at the lower levels.
Last spring I had 10 HS kids go through my ref training class so they could do middle school games. While only a few actually committed to doing it (a loss for the others, since those that did pulled down $40 for a MS game), I do know that they learned a lot about the striped team on the field and what we do, and I had very little complaining from the guys that were trained when I reffed some of their games.
Hopefully I'll have a chance to visit your area and do a couple games. I'll be interested in your evaluation!

[Woodenstick]

I agree partially with C, but there is no way you can say that a swing with the pole would be uncontrolled. More force does not mean more uncontrollability.

More force does mean more uncontrollability. If you drive a car 70 miles per hour it is harder to stop or turn than if you drive 30 mph. By the same token, the harder you swing a stick, and the heavier the stick, the harder to control.

This goes under the problems I have with Unec Roughness. If no other rules have been violated, then why make up a rule where the ref can be subjective to this extreme? That leads to basic differences in play calling, which negates the whole purpose of rules in the first place which is to provide a standardized way to play the game. This opens the door for refs being viewed, or just plain being, biased.

Yes, UR is somewhat subjective, but so is slashing, USC, or for that matter trivial vs. callable for most penalties. We have rulings and other referee training to try to standarize UR and other subjective calls, but there will always be judgment. The alternative is to try to come up with an objective rule, such as the "3 step" rule for hockey, and I don't think such a rule is possible for UR. You normally don't see a lot of UR calls, so I believe that only fringe play is affected by having such a rule.

If you're going to set a weight specification then set it, but don't fudge it because it doesn't meet your view of fair play, even though it meets the NCAA's and NFHS's. Call a slash a slash, but this is going overboard.

As a practical matter, the use of a powermaster training stick or any one of a hundred other possible dangerous items in a game will almost never occur. Trying to outlaw every possible dangerous item would fatten the rulebook and invite people to try and game the rules. A catch-all "no dangerous stuff" rule is a better way to go. Personally, I have never seen any equipment barred as dangerous purely at the referee's discretion under rule 1-10, so it doesn't seem to me to be a problem area. [Casts have a special ruling giving guidance, so I would say exclusion of casts is not "purely" at the ref's discretion.]

[TheKOB]

As a reply to all ya'll, what about wooden shafts? I'm confused. Do you honestly think someone would choose would over titanium, or even aluminum? What could the purpose possibly be to play with a wood shaft? You think the I.N. team in the World Championships played with old school all wood sticks because they throw better? Why do you think wooden shafts are even still around?

As both a coach and a ref, there are definite differences. On defense you want to intimidate your opponent, and part of that might just be carrying a heavy stick, the mantra "if a shot is taken from the crease, a butt is on the ground", etc. But having to judge intent is just something officials don't need. I realize that they can't make rules for every occurance, but something like this, which there is obviously a decent difference of opinion, shouldn't be officiated out of the game. As for all of refereeing being a judgement game, that's squinting your eyes a little too much so that everything looks the same. If that were the case, why have a rulebook at all?

I've never seen, used, or even wanted to use my powermaster in a game, but I don't think it should be disallowed for something subjective as "too heavy" unless you're planning on answering the question "how heavy is too heavy?". If the rules committee is ignoring this but legislating that we can't put bottle caps on our butt ends anymore (another pointless rule that I've ranted about at great length), that's a bit strange.

BTW, are goalies allowed to have this shaft? How about attack? To me, ya'll are arguing that the weight is the only thing that makes it illegal. If a slash is a slash, it should be called as such. It shouldn't matter if he's swinging a cardboard tube, a wooden shaft, or a powermaster.

[LaxRef]

I've never seen, used, or even wanted to use my powermaster in a game, but I don't think it should be disallowed for something subjective as "too heavy" unless you're planning on answering the question "how heavy is too heavy?". If the rules committee is ignoring this but legislating that we can't put bottle caps on our butt ends anymore (another pointless rule that I've ranted about at great length), that's a bit strange.

People were trying to use bottlecaps, so they outlawed them. AFAIK, people have not been using PowerMasters. If they are, let me know and I'll submit an A.R.

But by your logic, I should be able to use my razor-blade lined head since the rules don't explicitly prohibit it. That's why we need that "miscellaneous" clause for dangerous stuff: you can't list every dangerous item some moron might try to use.

I agree partially with C, but there is no way you can say that a swing with the pole would be uncontrolled. More force does not mean more uncontrollability.

No, but more mass does, since more mass = more inertia. It is inherently harder to make heavier objects change direction.

[spenny]

plus: more inertia, bigger owwie.

[navyboy28]

ive read pros and cons and came up with my summary.

1) the shafts are not explicitly illegal for field play
2) they show no advantages over a regular shaft other than hurting people
3) most responsible refs would not allow the shaft to be used

refering to 2+3, whats the advantage of a woodie other than having a heavier shaft that hurts people more an why would a ref rule differently on a woodie than a training stick or a regular stick filled with sand?

[elementsk8r070]

What is the ruling on the Warrior Orange Crusher? I am curious because I was sent an Warrior Orange Crusher because powermasters were out of stock at LD. For quite a while, I thought it was a training handle in box length but then I saw that sportstop sold both the orange crusher and box length powermaster

Orange Crusher- http://sportstop.com/product/WARRIOR06OCRUSHERBOX

Box training handle- http://sportstop.com/product/WARWTH

I am just wondering if this is legal for field use

[dram183]

the crusher is just a thicker krypto, the powermaster is like a steel/iron weight

[RockStar]

..........
2) they show no advantages over a regular shaft other than hurting people
3) most responsible refs would not allow the shaft to be used

refering to 2+3, whats the advantage of a woodie other than having a heavier shaft that hurts people more an why would a ref rule differently on a woodie than a training stick...........

I dunno, what's the difference between a ~3/4 pound wood shaft and a ~2 pound metal one?

Wood is certainly used mostly for it's hurting power (it also absorbs checks better), but it's not even on the same plane of reality as the metal trainer shafts being discussed

......or a regular stick filled with sand?
I think some rulesets have a clause that at least implies that metal shafts need to be hollow. It would appear that NCAA doesn't.

Again, even though wood is used to bring pain, there's a huge difference between ~ten ounces of lumber and a do-it-yourself trainer.

An engineering calculation (done by a sleepy RockStar on the back of a beer label) suggests that you could fit about a pound and a half of sand into a 30" shaft. (If you use a rich mortar mix, add another 40% to that. Anyone else want to crunch the numbers for if you use pennies? :agree:).

Anyway, add this fill weight to the half pound of shaft, and you have yourself a goon stick on the same level as the trainer.......If I find it, it's out of the game under the "unsafe equipment" catch all rule. A coach can appeal until he's blue in the face for all I care......if he says too much, I'll smack his freaking wrist with the shaft I just confiscated so I can be sure he knows exactly why it's coming out of the game! :crazy:

[TheKOB]

that would be considered adapting it to get an advantage.

[WHEELAX2]

as far as choosing wood over metal, I play box and some field with a wooden shaft, not to hurt anyone, but for the effect it has in taking checks.. the wood dampens the effect of the check.. it is also 100x more durable than any metal shaft out there.. it's also a cheaper alternative as well, an not that much heavier..

it's also what the game was played with for hundreds of years.. including a time not long ago..

[WHEELAX2]

just to add a little common sense as well..

I don't understand why refs tend to think players are always trying to get away with something..


come on.. think about it.. you know as well as I do that 99% of players are not trying to get away with anything.. you also know when a player is just out to hurt someone.. regardless of what kind of equipment he is using..

a player could be trying to hurt someone with the lightest stick on the market.. does that make his actions safer?? I hardly think so..

so why can we automatically assume that a player using a weighted shaft is simply trying to hurt someone..

do you think people driving SUVs are purposely trying to hurt someone??

considering that the effects of a SUV vs. a Car are much greater than Car vs. Car..

I mean.. should SUVs be outlawed??

logic.. anyone??

[EricL]

It is legal because theres no ruling of weightness (not that im aware of) and that the danger to others part... isn't every stick dangersous,

Think of it as this. An aluminum shaft thats hollow will do as much hurting as a aluminum shaft thats not hallow because its the surface not the inside.

[laxfan25]

Think of it as this. An aluminum shaft thats hollow will do as much hurting as a aluminum shaft thats not hallow because its the surface not the inside.
Eric, you need to go back to physics class! The MASS is the crucial measurement along with VELOCITY. A solid stick hitting you at 30 mph will hurt way more than a hollow stick doing the same - although both will hurt!

[TheKOB]

a certain amount depends on how rigid the stick is. It's also a sliding scale. A 4th grader can swing a aluminum shaft harder than a powermaster. But we're getting off topic....

[tomtom]

As a reply to all ya'll, what about wooden shafts? I'm confused. Do you honestly think someone would choose would over titanium, or even aluminum? What could the purpose possibly be to play with a wood shaft? You think the I.N. team in the World Championships played with old school all wood sticks because they throw better? Why do you think wooden shafts are even still around?

As both a coach and a ref, there are definite differences. On defense you want to intimidate your opponent, and part of that might just be carrying a heavy stick, the mantra "if a shot is taken from the crease, a butt is on the ground", etc. But having to judge intent is just something officials don't need. I realize that they can't make rules for every occurance, but something like this, which there is obviously a decent difference of opinion, shouldn't be officiated out of the game. As for all of refereeing being a judgement game, that's squinting your eyes a little too much so that everything looks the same. If that were the case, why have a rulebook at all?

I've never seen, used, or even wanted to use my powermaster in a game, but I don't think it should be disallowed for something subjective as "too heavy" unless you're planning on answering the question "how heavy is too heavy?". If the rules committee is ignoring this but legislating that we can't put bottle caps on our butt ends anymore (another pointless rule that I've ranted about at great length), that's a bit strange.

BTW, are goalies allowed to have this shaft? How about attack? To me, ya'll are arguing that the weight is the only thing that makes it illegal. If a slash is a slash, it should be called as such. It shouldn't matter if he's swinging a cardboard tube, a wooden shaft, or a powermaster.

First off, people can use wood for a variety of reasons. First off, wood is cheap. Many people would rather take a stick they can make at home for 5-10 bucks worth of hardwood into a game than an $80 metal shaft that's just as strong. If anybody really just wanted a woodie for the weight, they could simply put some weights inside and call it a day, this way keeping the strength of an expensive metal shaft. Sure, there may be players who like the checks of a woodie, but in the end it's not that big of a difference, simply a few ounces.

Some also like it simply for nostalgic value, for example, me. In the I.N. case it was a display of heritage, they were using all wooden sticks, no plastic heads, just the way the Iroquois did for hundreds of years before metal and plastic came onto the lax scene.

And the weight of the shaft isnt necessarily important, its whether the stick is dangerous. After all, I could bring out a d pole that weighs 20 pounds, but it all that weight is at the bottom it isnt dangerous. However adding an extra 12 ounces to the head of a pole will give it a mean check.

[inblack]

Devils adovcate: As an official you see a D-man getting ready to use one of these shafts 8lbs shafts in a game. My first thought is to INTENT, what are his intentions for using such a heavy stick in game play. And a stick that heavy does dramatically increase the possibilty that he can really hurt someone severely with it. My answer is that it is his intention to use that heavy of a stick to hurt someone.

Comments?NO GO - ILLEGAL.

In the box, we look for this ... we call it Bringing out the woodie!. Often in a hot game (or a cement head player) once the score is out of hand, or looking for revenge, you will suddenly see a big old wooden crosse out on the floor.

Nothing illegal about the stick or him using it,

but since you have already called two periods and not seen it once, ... Why is he using it now?
You know I'm keeping an eye on that player.