do you guys think this is a legal pocket? [Archive]

truste1

10-13-2005, 06:37 PM

Yeah, from what I've read, the ball has to be easily visible or its illegal. You also can't do anything to make it look like you do (or don't, when you really do) have the ball - such as dying it so it appears that way, etc. Of course, you can still see it through the sidewall but I'd assume it wouldn't be legal...

LaxRef

10-13-2005, 07:28 PM

I can't see anything explicit in the rules disallowing a solid pocket, but maybe I'm missing something.

laxfan25

10-13-2005, 07:49 PM

Is there a picture posted somewhere? The only real consideration is can you judge the pocket depth, and does it roll out.
As as concept I would think that it would promote a very quick and smooth release, without the shooting string "hook" that can occur when you really try to crank a shot. I'd like to see what it looks like.
Is it true that to get a really tough piece of leather they're using scroti from old lax refs? :naughty:

Snake~eyes

10-14-2005, 01:31 PM

Well guys I will have to give my two cents here, I haven't posted in here in while because I've been busy. But I knew LaxRef would take care of answering peoples questions.

According to the rulebook (1-7-1) it says "the net of the crosse shall be constructed..."

I would not consider a sheet of leather a net. I would say that by the book interpretation that this type of "stringing" is illegal. I thought we have had this conversation before but I guess not.

#15Roadies

10-14-2005, 01:32 PM

LaxRef

10-14-2005, 01:42 PM

According to the rulebook (1-7-1) it says "the net of the crosse shall be constructed..."

I would not consider a sheet of leather a net. I would say that by the book interpretation that this type of "stringing" is illegal. I thought we have had this conversation before but I guess not.

I would argue that it's not clear at all. First of all, what type of foul would it be? There's no A.R. or rule that says it's an illegal crosse, just a vague--at best--implication. Thus, if you find one, you'd be hard pressed to give it a 3:00 NR penalty; I think the most you could do is treat it like a missing end cap or hanging strings greater than 6 inches and send it off the field until fixed.

In addition, if there's a tiny amount of mesh connecting to the leather to the head, then it [b]has[/i] a net. Nowhere does it say you can't have a big piece of leather in there, too.

LaxRef

10-14-2005, 01:46 PM

The ILF rules make reference to the "net" of the stick and the "mesh." So I would say right off the bat, your "pocket" does not fit in with the rules of ILF lacrosse. Also, the rules state that the ball cannot be withheld from play. I would assume that withholding the ball from sight would also mean withholding it from play. (like putting the ball under your jersey or something like that).

If it's under your jersey, it's clearly withheld from play, because not only can't people see it but they can't get at it. But it's not because people can't see it.

Trying to argue that something that keeps other people from seeing the ball should be ruled withholding is completely outlandish. If I'm behind the goal and everyone else is above the GLE, and I turn my back to the GLE and put my stick, with the ball in it, in front of my body, no one else on the field can see the ball, but that sure isn't withholding it from play.How is it my fault that people aren't standing where they can see it?

Similarly, you could make a mesh so tight that no one could see through it to see the ball in the pocket. How on earth are you going to rule that withholding (or illegal in any other way)? And if you don't, how can you do the same thing to the leather pocket just because it's different?

spenny

10-14-2005, 01:57 PM

heres a direct link to a pic of the head: http://community.webshots.com/photo/356107400/375350195wTqOVl

I asked one of our local refs last nite after my masters game (snake, it was homer) and he seemed to think it was ok. he said that as long as he could see under the sidewalls to perform a pocket depth check, and that it could pass the other stick check tests, he didnt think he'd have a problem with it.
but also said he wasnt positive and would consult his rule book at home.

#15Roadies

10-14-2005, 02:10 PM

Good points LaxRef. The argument for withholding is a grasp for sure, thanks for clearing that one up! (for now... ;)

However, making a mesh so tight you cannot see the ball defeats your point. I would think that it would no longer be considered a "net."

i.e. from Merriam-Webster: "an open-meshed fabric twisted, knotted, or woven together at regular intervals"

How far you could legally tighten the mesh is one thing, using one piece of leather is another. Not to mention the potential drag effect a pocket like that would have...

laxfan25

10-14-2005, 02:24 PM

Snake~eyes

10-14-2005, 02:25 PM

Laxref, you make some good points but I'm going to have to respectfully disagree.

We can't always go strictly by the book rules, sometimes we have to also use some common sense in dicphering the intent of the rule. The intent of the rule is for players to play with net type sticks.

It also says the net must be roughly triangular.

Furthermore I would by rule say this is a 3:00 penalty. The rulebook specifically states that a missing butt(funny - haha) and >6 inches are specifically not penalties in the rulebook and the casebook. If you look at rule 1-7, I'm sure you can find places where there is no backing to penalize someone 3-minutes for various violations in that section but I'm sure you would. I would post some examples but I have to head out.

Snake~eyes

10-14-2005, 02:26 PM

A traditional pocket is not made of "mesh" either, originally it was leather thongs with gut weaving between. Now you just have one big leather thong. I like the creative innovation, and as long as I can check the depth, what's the big deal?
I imagine purists had the same issue when "woods" became metal.
I do not have an issue with it other than I do not believe its legal. I do think it takes away from the game (being able to see the ball and all) but if they made an official ruling allowing this stick to be used then I wouldn't be upset about it.

#15Roadies

10-14-2005, 08:31 PM

I think the traditional pocket would count as a "net" and "mesh." It is not made of mesh of course, but once it is strung it is considered mesh: "a woven, knit, or knotted material of open texture with evenly spaced holes" - Websters again...

lax4life6

10-14-2005, 09:16 PM

ok so theres a list of stuff your pockets allowed to be made out of right? like nylon,mesh, synthetic materials? (correct me if im wrong). if leather is on there than it should be legal right? just make the sidewalls loose enough to see the top of teh ball for a stick cheack and youre good i would think. but im no ref. just speculating

#15Roadies

10-15-2005, 07:51 AM

I think that leather can be on there, but it must constitute a material that is "woven" or "woven together." One piece of leather is not woven and does not constitute "mesh" or "net."

I think when they say the net should be roughly triangular they are referring to the general shape of the net when it is in the head, which are roughly triangualr. Although it seems a little archaic nowadays...

scruffy221

10-15-2005, 08:03 AM

You could ounch diamonds in the leather and make a mesh-like leather piece, if that makes sense

LCNlaxman

10-15-2005, 09:34 PM

You could ounch diamonds in the leather and make a mesh-like leather piece, if that makes sense

It makes sense, and is an interesting concept.

EHSLAX12

10-16-2005, 01:22 PM

i think there is some restriction to it. i think u gotta have expanded sidewals or somethin.

laxfan25

10-16-2005, 03:57 PM

I couldnt find the exact wording in the pdf version of the NCAA rulebook, but I know there is a mention of there of how it is illegal to make the shape of a ball in your stick (IE, painting a white circle, putting in a white circular shooting string), and Im guessing that you could probably call this under the same principal depending on the wording.

The fact is, the underlying motive seems to most certainly be to hide the ball and create an unfair advantage, so you are going to find people that call it just because it takes away from a game.

Just because you have a leather pocket isn't the same as painting a ball on your pocket. I would also disagree that the primary intent is to hide the ball. After all, players can follow a pass into his stick, and a player cradling with a defender checking him is hard to hide. My belief is as I stated earlier - I think that pocket design could give a very smooth, quick release without a big windup - defintiely a preferred pocket design in my world. As long as the pocket met the test requirements I wouls be OK with it until a different, specific ruling came out. If you were to zoom in on the pocket with an electron microscope you would see all sorts of spaces in it! :drool:

laxfan25

10-17-2005, 07:24 AM

And how would that be any different from a ball with a white spot in the shape of a ball painted into it?
That would be different because the white painted spot is specifically written into the rules.

LaxRef

10-17-2005, 08:07 AM

That would be different because the white painted spot is specifically written into the rules.

Exactly! I don't know why this point needs to be explained.

laxfan25

10-18-2005, 07:19 AM

My point being, if you cant hide the ball with a stick with a completely opaque pocket as you claim, then why did they outlaw something that give no more of an advantage?

So from that, I think that at the least, there needs to be a rule to outlaw this. I would view a completely opaque pocket as just as much if not more of an advantage of painting a white ball into the pocket (which is specifically prohibited), so why should it be legal?
Because it is not illegal? The point about the painted ball is that there is only one reason for doing that - to deceive the other team, whereas a valid point can be made that the primary intent of the leather pocket is performance improvement.
I'm not even sure if this is something that has hit the market, or is just someone playing around with design. If it does become a product I would expect there to be a memo regarding it. In the meantime, if one showed up in my game I will accept it, assuming it meets the other rules. this is probably one of those situations that LaxRef refers to, where there may be differences in interpretation depending on the crew you have. To be safe, if you have one of these pockets go to the ref crew before the game and ask their opinion for that day.

RYU

10-20-2005, 06:30 PM

I'm w/ LaxRef on this one and fail to see how an opaque pocket provides an unfair advantage. But as long as we're argueing over the semantics of "net" & "mesh", I see a simple solution to get around that. Take a hole puncher and punch a few 1/4" holes in it. You could even punch them along the perimeter of the pocket so the holes don't affect the handling characteristics of the pocket at all. If you poured water into the pocket, the it would drain throw those holes wouldn't it? So then, the pocket would meet the definition of a "net".

Regarding the opaqueness... you could achieve the same thing using tightly woven fabric, say something cut from a cotton shirt, bed sheet, curtain, canvas bag, denim, etc. For functional purposes, the ball would still be opaque & hidden. For inspection purposes, it would still meet the standard of "net" or "mesh", since cloth is a series of tighly woven thread. If you hold cloth up close, it still transmits light, and if you pour water, it will drain it.

bartsimsonii

10-20-2005, 08:12 PM

I did not notice my pocket could start such a debate. This pocket is "made". I tried to just put a rectangular piece of leather in the head but it did not make the right pocket. The pocket is an elongated triangle with very rounded edges or an oval with its width decreasing like this \_/. I did not intend to make this pocket so the ball can be hidden but rather for it to be unusual and new. The only problem witha leather pocket is that it has to be specificaly cut for the shape/pinch of the head so the pocket forms nicley. I would imaging that the pocket would be nicer with string sidewalls instead of leather ones. It throws quite nicely though. I also cant imagine it being illegal because no rule denies it from being illegal but it probablly would matter upon the referee and how he interprets the rules. But technically it seems that it is legal if you just go by what the rulebook sais and do not use your own judgment.

CTLaxer

10-21-2005, 04:15 AM

Does anybody else think this would be a crappy pocket? I certainly think it would be a waste of time. The thickness of the leather would have to be pretty significant in order to ensure that it did not snap at the sidewalls where it is held to the head after a few hard passses....It seems like this is a moot point, even though it is sparking some serious and applicable debate on the legality of material that you cannot see through. Hell, I can barely stand the new found prominence of mesh and offset heads (scoured for 3 non offset excaliburs), call me oldschool I guess. No offense to the OP and stringer.

Just my $0.02

laxfan25

10-21-2005, 07:32 AM

Does anybody else think this would be a crappy pocket?
While I agree that the stringing holes may need reinforcement, I thought the concept was sound, in that I thought you would get a very smooth, quick release with little arm movement. The advantage this gives a player is that you can keep the stick in tight to your body and still get a good hard snap throw without a big windup. I did a game yesterday, and one of the D men was constantly checking guys sticks when they brought it back over their shoulder to pass or shoot. You can avoid this if your pocket releases the ball easily. I usually kept my pocket fairly shallow on attack for that reason - the deeper the pocket the bigger the windup typically.
I also thought it would have less "catch" or hook as the ball comes out. This is why you see guys with several rows of shooting strings, to avoid that issue - you want to know where the ball is going, irrespective of how hard you throw. Pockets that have a whip can be very difficult to judge based on how hard you throw it.
If this was something you were trying to put into production, you could build templates of various heads, and punch out the leather large enough to roll the edge so that you would string on a doubled-up section of leather. You could also wet the leather and shape it on a form to pre-build a pocket, and lastly, you could punch a few holes in the pocket area to make a leather "mesh". :nut:

bartsimsonii

10-21-2005, 09:04 AM

While I agree that the stringing holes may need reinforcement, I thought the concept was sound, in that I thought you would get a very smooth, quick release with little arm movement. The advantage this gives a player is that you can keep the stick in tight to your body and still get a good hard snap throw without a big windup. I did a game yesterday, and one of the D men was constantly checking guys sticks when they brought it back over their shoulder to pass or shoot. You can avoid this if your pocket releases the ball easily. I usually kept my pocket fairly shallow on attack for that reason - the deeper the pocket the bigger the windup typically.
I also thought it would have less "catch" or hook as the ball comes out. This is why you see guys with several rows of shooting strings, to avoid that issue - you want to know where the ball is going, irrespective of how hard you throw. Pockets that have a whip can be very difficult to judge based on how hard you throw it.
If this was something you were trying to put into production, you could build templates of various heads, and punch out the leather large enough to roll the edge so that you would string on a doubled-up section of leather. You could also wet the leather and shape it on a form to pre-build a pocket, and lastly, you could punch a few holes in the pocket area to make a leather "mesh". :nut:

That was a very good description of the pocket.