Brush or Penalty?

[stegmakk]

I was playing LSM, and their middie was trying to go 1 on 1 with me.
As he starts running straight on at me I go to give a solid poke to the chest as I usually do (usually time it right before they bring the stick across their body and can either knock their stick away or impede that first burst of their dodge)...
As luck would have it the guys hands were low and his hand movement was just a hair quicker than I expected.
With the poke check his stick was flattened almost vertically against his body.
Since the poke ended up on his shaft and not the chest as usual, plus both the momentum of the check and his own opposite momentum, my check slid right up his stick and up under his helmet to his neck.
Happened in about a second. I wasn't continuing to push through the check any more than normal it was just bad luck it hit his stick and slid up to his neck. The guy dropped down and I got a penalty.
Granted his head snapped back, but technically I would have called it a brush.
Who's call was correct...me or the ref?

[laxfan25]

Granted his head snapped back, but technically I would have called it a brush.
Who's call was correct...me or the ref?
The ref obviously, since that is what his responsibility is on the field, to make that kind of call. Haven't seen too many "call your own fouls" games, and they usually don't work out too well.
"Technically", I would have called you for a slash. I don't like contact around the neck. Penalties are still penalties even if inadvertant. "I didn't mean to do that!" doesn't work as a defense.
How would you justify calling that a brush? I am familiar with the brush call and have used it when there is light or incidental contact with the helmet, but not when a poke check ends up in the throat of the other player. That'll get you a minute.

[LaxRef]

I agree with LF25. You weren't in control of your stick if you rode up and hit him in the neck. 1:00 personal foul.

Incidentally, your intentional poke to the chest is also a 1:00 personal foul.

[stegmakk]

Thank you...I wasn't sure.
I wasn't trying to even go near his head. It just slid up before I could stop it.
I didn't make a big argument or fret, I asked the ref and did my time.

[CoachK]

I wasn't aware that there was a rule in the book against poke checks? and I'm really lazy right now, so I won't look it up for a couple days atleast... Which rule would you be referencing? unsportsmanlike contact?

[LaxRef]

I wasn't aware that there was a rule in the book against poke checks? and I'm really lazy right now, so I won't look it up for a couple days atleast... Which rule would you be referencing? unsportsmanlike contact?

There's no rule against poke checks. There is a rule about hitting the opponent's body with your stick (slashing), so when stegmakk says:

As he starts running straight on at me I go to give a solid poke to the chest

I'm interpreting that to mean he pokes the opponent in the chest with his stick. That's a slash (although not everyone will call it; if there's some contact I won't necessarily call it, but I will if it looks like it would have hurt if the player wasn't wearing pads). If he mean's that he's poking in the general vicinity of the chest, but hitting the stick or the golved hand on the stick and not the body, no foul.

[stegmakk]

What I meant by the usual poke to the chest is this...
I don't go out and just hack a guy...
However most of the time when a guy sets up to make a run from up top his stick comes across his face in either a fake, or an actual dodge.
What I do is time the move with my poke check. Normally I time it so I land it a split second (unnoticeable by many a ref) before his stick gets there. This will either A) twist his stick by his own hard cradle as hhe brings his stick across mine, or B) if I get there late, or he brings the stick back the way it came, with a poke with follow through will throw his dodge off. It isn't a bone breaking thrust, but just a quick medium strength poke with a strong short follow through.
With it timed as they bring the stick in across their body, it legitamately looks as if I am trying to poke their stick which is legal. So I have actually never been called on this kind of check.

[ploaref]

as a general matter, refs that have played lacrosse will recognize this check for what it is: a slash. Coaches love to coach it, perhaps because of what they believe to be the ambiguous nature of the infraction...AND...because it is often effective in stopping a speedy offensive player who is bearing down directly on a (more or less) stationary defender. Fact remains, thrusting the stick, or "poking" it if you prefer, directly and deliberately into an attacker's chest is a dishonest, lazy, potentially very dangerous check. i'll call it every time i see it...

[RockStar]

.....Fact remains, thrusting the stick, or "poking" it if you prefer, directly and deliberatly into an attacker's chest is a dishonest, lazy, potentially very dangerous check. i'll call it every time i see it...

I'm in complete agreement.

In case anyone is interested, the CLA and the NLL both take a very, very, very dim view of this type of check for box.

It's called spearing, and it's a 5 minute major penalty.

In CLA attempted spearing is worth 5 minutes, while a spear that makes solid contact is a match penalty (basically 5 minutes plus a game misconduct, with a teammate being forced to serve your 5 minutes).

With this as my background, seeing talk of a spear check being worth only one minute in the sin-bin throws me off a bit!

[laxfan25]

I'm in complete agreement.

In case anyone is interested, the CLA and the NLL both take a very, very, very dim view of this type of check for box.

It's called spearing, and it's a 5 minute major penalty.

In CLA attempted spearing is worth 5 minutes, while a spear that makes solid contact is a match penalty (basically 5 minutes plus a game misconduct, with a teammate being forced to serve your 5 minutes).

With this as my background, seeing talk of a spear check being worth only one minute in the sin-bin throws me off a bit!
In CLA they consider spearing a poke check with the stick? I was unaware of that. Here in the States spearing is when you deliver a body check by leading witht he crown of your helmet. Dangerous for both the giver and givee, and a 3 min. non-releaseable.
I have to admit, coming from the defensive ranks, that the poke check delivered when the opponent is trying a face dodge is often taught, and rarely called as a slash, since it doesn't look like a swinging blow to the arm or body. It will leave a welt on the sternum just the same!

[stegmakk]

I have to admit, coming from the defensive ranks, that the poke check delivered when the opponent is trying a face dodge is often taught, and rarely called as a slash, since it doesn't look like a swinging blow to the arm or body. It will leave a welt on the sternum just the same!
Exactly...its not like it is a viscious poke check while his stick is an arms length away...it is a legal poke check...just a hair early...
Also it is not thrown ridiculously hard trying to cripple the man...
but I do see how a ref with a veryu keen eye and a very technical view of the rules could call it a penalty...as long as it is close I have not seen a penalty called on this...I would argue my case on this

Now as for the original predicament, I can see it being a penalty...even though the initial poke was "legal" unfortunately I didn't stop the slide up his stick into his neck/head area...again...it was all in less than a second and I don't think there was time to react...I've had deliberate throat checks done to me and those arent fun...so I wouldnt purposely do that to a guy...but I do see Laxref's point that I should have had a bit more control...I accept the penalty for that.

[RockStar]

In CLA they consider spearing a poke check with the stick? I was unaware of that......

Yes, spearing is a little more literal here.....it's using your stick as a spear! I think NLL has an explicit headbutting penalty to cover the other type of spearing. Under CLA, I guess you could call charging or roughing, at 2 minutes, 5 minutes, or match as required.

As far as penalizing spearing - I gave you how the rules are written, and this particular rule probably hasn't been updated since 90% of players were still using woodies.

In practice, with the tupperware sticks, it takes a fairly vicious intentional poke to get the 5, and it damn near takes a jousting match to earn the match penalty.

With most refs, a lesser spear is typically penalized with a minor penalty. The call is usually cross checking or slashing.....incorrect, but equitable as there is no provision for a 2 minute minor for spearing in our rulebook.

[ColtsLax]

you have to watch though, because if you throw a poke and hit the guys hand, and he moves it away from his body, it could be considered a ward

[Lacrosse Ref LA]

as a general matter, refs that have played lacrosse will recognize this check for what it is: a slash. Coaches love to coach it, perhaps because of what they believe to be the ambiguous nature of the infraction...AND...because it is often effective in stopping a speedy offensive player who is bearing down directly on a (more or less) stationary defender. Fact remains, thrusting the stick, or "poking" it if you prefer, directly and deliberately into an attacker's chest is a dishonest, lazy, potentially very dangerous check. i'll call it every time i see it...
Wow this is right on !! Unfortunately it is taught by some coaches and I find it a recipe for disaster. A check like this that ends up into the throat could be very damaging and could result in a very serious injury. Another check that is similar is when a defender pushes his stick forward (hard) with his back hand and guiding it with his forward hand and "shooting" it at the offensive player. The defender has no control after he has lunged the stick forward even though he attempted to aim it. This is a check that is taught by coaches also.

[Lacrosse Ref LA]

If he gets called for a ward that would be a good thing because you would get the ball.

[Woodenstick]

"Granted his head snapped back, but technically I would have called it a brush."

Forgetting about the contact with the neck and chest, any time a player's head snaps back from a blow to the head, it is not a brush. A "Brush" implies a minor contact with the helmet that has no affect on the checked player.

[RottingMind13]

a snapback of the head can be done by a good actor on the field though making a play look much more severe than it was and causing a penalty that may not have otherwise been called. With a stick in the general vicinity of the players head and a good acting play, i'm sure that can get called at least 3/4 of the time. Unless the ref was the players acting director

[LaxRef]

a snapback of the head can be done by a good actor on the field though making a play look much more severe than it was and causing a penalty that may not have otherwise been called. With a stick in the general vicinity of the players head and a good acting play, i'm sure that can get called at least 3/4 of the time. Unless the ref was the players acting director

But if the official thinks the ball carrier was acting, it's a technical foul on the offense.

[RockStar]

a snapback of the head can be done by a good actor on the field though making a play look much more severe than it was and causing a penalty that may not have otherwise been called.....

Where I come from, that crap is called diving.

Being caught doing this will lose the respect of everyone near the field, possibly including your coach and teammates.

[Snake~eyes]

Steg,
as you know this is a judgement call, I agree with LaxRef's opinion by the story but if you showed us the video clip LaxRef would give you his opinion (using his judgement), I would give you mine, ploaref would give you his opinion ectect. ;)


Good luck out there.