View Full Version : Multiple foul quiz
ncaa book 2006
Ball is loose just outside the crease and attackman A1 steps into the crease. Lead official calls "Play-on" whereupon B1 turns and taunts A1 with a loud-heard-by-everyone F-Bomb. Flag is thrown.
Now what do you do? Slow whistle? If play is stopped, who serves and for how long and who gets the ball where?
laxfan25
11-21-2005, 02:00 PM
The play-on was in B's favor, the USC committed by B1 cancels the play-on immediately. This is also a simultaneous foul situation, so A1 will serve 30 secs and B1 1 min un-releasable. Since they are simultaneous fouls, the full 30 secs must be served, even if B should score sooner than that. Since A has the shorter penalty time, they are awarded the ball on the crease. (just kidding).
LaxRef
11-21-2005, 02:04 PM
I'll hold off on answering this, but I'll pose a follow-up question:
A1 drops a loud F-bomb after his shot is caught by goalkeeper B1. B1 throws a long outlet pass to B2, who is in the attack area. B1 has the ball checked out of his stick, and then A2 steps in team B's crease (not that you'd be likely to see this, but just suppose you did). Then A3 scoops up the ball. Who's supposed to serve penalty time, and how much? (In practice, you'd probably "not notice" the crease violation.)
Laxref_36
11-21-2005, 06:06 PM
I'll hold off on answering this, but I'll pose a follow-up question:
A1 drops a loud F-bomb after his shot is caught by goalkeeper B1. B1 throws a long outlet pass to B2, who is in the attack area. B1 has the ball checked out of his stick, and then A2 steps in team B's crease (not that you'd be likely to see this, but just suppose you did). Then A3 scoops up the ball. Who's supposed to serve penalty time, and how much? (In practice, you'd probably "not notice" the crease violation.))
Assuming you threw the flag on A1 for his comment. A1 would serve one minute non-releaseable for Unsportmanlike Conduct. A2 would then serve 30 seconds for stepping in the crease. A3 scooping of the ball would then kill the flag down situation.
If you are "noticing" A2 stepping into the crease while the ball is down the other end of the field, you will open yourself up for a long and unpleasant day.
LaxRef
11-21-2005, 08:14 PM
Assuming you threw the flag on A1 for his comment. A1 would serve one minute non-releaseable for Unsportmanlike Conduct. A2 would then serve 30 seconds for stepping in the crease. A3 scooping of the ball would then kill the flag down situation.
Why does A2 serve 30 seconds for a loose-ball crease violation?
If you are "noticing" A2 stepping into the crease while the ball is down the other end of the field, you will open yourself up for a long and unpleasant day.
Agreed; I only picked that because I was trying to parallel the situation in the original post. That's why I was careful to add that you would probably "not notice" the crease violation, even if you did. :chuckle:
You lads have veered off topic somewhat what with noticing things at the far end and up in the stands.
We had a crease violation play on against Team A...then B commits a personal foul...
this is now simultaneous...A goes for 30, B goes for a minute and ball goes to Team A.
Last year we would have only sent B for that minute and conveniently forgotten about A's technical, loose-ball transgression.
The reverse is not true. Flag down for B personal foul. Now, if A wards...that kills the
slow whistle. It does not also mean that A goes for 30 as well. (True international rules, by the way).
LaxRef
11-21-2005, 09:24 PM
You lads have veered off topic somewhat what with noticing things at the far end and up in the stands.
We had a crease violation play on against Team A...then B commits a personal foul... this is now simultaneous...A goes for 30, B goes for a minute and ball goes to Team A.
Last year we would have only sent B for that minute and conveniently forgotten about A's technical, loose-ball transgression.
Actually, this was the rule last year as well. It was just not clear to most people that this was the implication of the rules, so I suggested that if this is what they really wanted they should include an A.R.
donald28
11-22-2005, 09:49 AM
The personal foul ends the play on and just to clarify, since the fouls are simultaneous, it is irrelevant that the loose ball technical foul occured before the flag down or is it time serving only because the new rule says so? If a technical foul- even a loose ball technical happened after the flag down that would only serve to end the slow whistle right? I believe I am a little confused.
WHEELAX2
11-22-2005, 10:01 AM
I don't see how you can turn a play on into a penalty.. completely absurd... so, If I push someone from behind on a loose ball, play on, then someone comes and elbows me in the face, I get a penalty for what was a play on, and he gets a USC foul/illegal check penalty?????
so, if there was a play on against the opposing team, and I got a penalty, wouldn't that in a sense lessen my penalty??
Wheelax wrote: " don't see how you can turn a play on into a penalty.. completely absurd... so, If I push someone from behind on a loose ball, play on, then someone comes and elbows me in the face, I get a penalty for what was a play on, and he gets a USC foul???"
You are correct.
WHEELAX2
11-22-2005, 10:06 AM
so, in essence a play on really isn't a play on?? why don't they just call it a penalty right then and there??
I've just got this built-in alarm going off that something is inherently wrong with that concept, whether written into rule or not..
doesn't that change the severity of the "play-on" action??
so, what was once a change of posession, now becomes a served time penalty???...
what if this kid taunts like 15 seconds after the play on is called??
LaxRef
11-22-2005, 10:12 AM
The personal foul ends the play on and just to clarify, since the fouls are simultaneous, it is irrelevant that the loose ball technical foul occured before the flag down or is it time serving only because the new rule says so? If a technical foul- even a loose ball technical happened after the flag down that would only serve to end the slow whistle right? I believe I am a little confused.
The issue is simultaneous fouls, which is always confusing. Here's the relevant portion:
Simultaneous fouls are fouls called on players of opposing teams during (1) a live ball or; (2) a dead ball when sequence cannot be determined.
a. During a slow whistle or play-on, any foul committed by the team in possession (or entitled to possession) shall result in an immediate whistle.
b. Penalty time:
1. If there is no play-on or flag down in effect and if all fouls are technical, the fouls cancel.
2. If the team in possession (or entitled to possession) commits:
(a) Only technical fouls, no penalty time will be served by that team.
(b) Any personal foul, all players involved will serve penalty time. This shall include technical and personal fouls by either team.
The blue part is new this year, and I asked that it be added if that's what they really meant (the same with A.R. 14). But really, that's what the red part implied anyway: if the team in possession or entitled to possession commits a personal foul, then everyone involved serves penalty time even if the initial foul was a loose-ball technical. This is clarified by:
A.R. 14: During a loose ball, B1 pushes A1 from behind and a play-on is called. While the ball is still live, A1 turns and slashes B1. RULING: These are simultaneous fouls. Since Team A was entitled to possession, all players involved serve penalty time. B1 serves 30 seconds and A1 serves 1:00, with the first 30 seconds of each penalty being nonreleasable.
WHEELAX2
11-22-2005, 10:18 AM
still very confused....
ok.. if my violation in a given scenario warrants that a "play on" is issued, essentially giving the other team the ball<< that should be my punishment..
I don't see how you can change the punishment as the other team commiting a penalty should not be a mitigating factor, as their penalty is considered more severe than a "play on" type violation..
another question, what if during the play on, the other team picks up the ball and the play on is off, but then the team with the ball now commits a foul, do I still serve for stepping in the crease?? << see my logic here??
laxfan25
11-22-2005, 10:51 AM
another question, what if during the play on, the other team picks up the ball and the play on is off, but then the team with the ball now commits a foul, do I still serve for stepping in the crease?? << see my logic here??
Once the play-on is turned off by the team gaining possession, the infraction has been adjudicated, so the later foul is the only pertinent one at that point.
As to you first part, yes, both teams will serve time, but the opponent will always ahve 30 secs more to serve, so you do gain an advantage, even though you'll be all even for the first 30 secs.
WHEELAX2
11-22-2005, 10:52 AM
I'm quitting lacrosse then..
I just don't see the logic nor the reasoning behind what essentially is double punishment for a minor infraction..
why is it originally a play on, then suddenly a penalty.. why isn't it a penalty in the first place even if the other team doesn't commit a foul??
laxfan25
11-22-2005, 10:55 AM
I'm quitting lacrosse then..
Maybe you should consider putting on the stripes.
Why miss out on all the fun!
WHEELAX2
11-22-2005, 11:02 AM
ok.. so play on, no flag is thrown, which means that no servable penalty has been committed.. then how does a play on become a servable penalty?? it's simply a posession changing violation, how does it then become time serving?? why would i be more severly punished if the other team committed a penalty?? they would have gotten the ball as a result of my misdeed.. < isn't that enough?
there has to be a better solution than what's in the rules
shouldn't the team who is dumb enough to get a penalty when the ball is obviously coming to them because of a play on violation committed by the the other team, be punished with a penalty and loss of posession??
WHEELAX2
11-22-2005, 11:15 AM
think of it this way, I push someone from behind on a face off, then pick up the ball.. ok.. play on was called before I picked it up, then when I pick it up, the play is blown dead, and the other team gets the ball.. so, as soon as the whistle is blown to restart play, the team with the ball commits a usc foul when one of their players taunts me...
ok.. result.. they got the ball because of the play on, but once "in posession" they committed a foul, therefore they serve, and my team gets the ball..
couldn't you consider them to be "in posession" when I commit a play on against them when the ball is on the ground? they are going to get the ball back whether or not my team touches the ball... so if they commit a penalty while "in posession" << or when the ball is technically going to be awarded to them if they pick it up or if my team picks it up, shouldn't it be the same result??
I'm just thinking that during the play on the team who does not commit the violation is going to get the ball, they are the only team who can gain posession of the ball, so they can almost be considered to be in posession of the ball, though not technically the true definition of posession... so, while the ball is technically theres, whether or not it is in their stick, or on the ground, they commit a servable penalty, thus marked by a flag down, since they have "posession" of the ball, the whistle should be blown, and play stopped.. the play on in essence gave them the ball, so the play on is over.. since they have committed a penalty while in "posession" they shall serve the full time, and the opposing team shall be awarded the ball...
they've already been awarded posession by the play on, so the play on has been resolved...
by the way, I was going to say something about how this paralells a lot of absurd international rules that make absolutely no sense in a game play situation..
laxfan25
11-22-2005, 11:53 AM
shouldn't the team who is dumb enough to get a penalty when the ball is obviously coming to them because of a play on violation committed by the the other team, be punished with a penalty and loss of posession??
That is exactly what would happen if they commit something other than a technical, which essentially just kills the play-on and they get the ball.
If the team that would get the ball on the play-on commits a personal, they'll be serving a minute while the opponent will get 30 secs. Since the opponent has lesser time on the penalties they would be getting the ball as well.
Justice is served!
Laxfan25 wrote:" Justice is served." when commenting on Wheelax'S situation.
I think I agree with Whelax2. The loose-ball crease violation by A1 is punished extra harshly when B2 commits his slash by this clarificationof the rule. Wheelax2 is arguing, I think, that B2 should lose the ball AND be man down for a minute. Now, with this calrification for 2006, A gets the ball but it's all even for 30 seconds (each team a man down) and then man up for 30 seconds. It's like saying to B; during a play-on AGAINST your team's infraction...a slash will really only cost you 30 seconds of man down rather than 1 minute.
I had always thought the origin of simultaneous fouls lay in trying to prevent retaliation fouls...and this was accomplished thru locking in both parties for the lesser penalty time.
laxfan25
11-22-2005, 12:16 PM
Hey, I don't make the law, I just enforce it!
WHEELAX2
11-22-2005, 12:17 PM
yeah, but is it right to enforce a rule you don't agree with??
laxfan25
11-22-2005, 12:22 PM
yeah, but is it right to enforce a rule you don't agree with??
As long as it's a rule, I've got to enforce it, or else the other coach, being a longtime Rules Forum reader, may object, as well as give me a poor evaluation, which is the greatest sin of all!
Hopefully the coaches, who write the rules, will realize the folly of poorly constructed rules and make changes based on LaxRef's recommendations for the '07 book.
LaxRef
11-22-2005, 12:49 PM
As long as it's a rule, I've got to enforce it, or else the other coach, being a longtime Rules Forum reader, may object, as well as give me a poor evaluation, which is the greatest sin of all!
Hopefully the coaches, who write the rules, will realize the folly of poorly constructed rules and make changes based on LaxRef's recommendations for the '07 book.
FYI, I think I submitted this one as "Is this what you mean? If so, you should include this A.R.; if not, you need to change the wording of the rule." I'm not sure it makes sense, but then what % of simultaneous fouls does make sense?
As to selective enforcement, I don't think you should get to be an official unless you enforce the rules that exist, not the rules you think should exist. What if a cop believed that it should be okay to drink and drive and let someone go who killed a family member of yours? Would that be okay?
WHEELAX2
11-22-2005, 12:56 PM
I think that's quite an extreme comparison, that isn't even in the same realm.. what I was referring to about "if you don't agree with the rules.. etc" was that if you don't like rules you are supposed to enforce, isn't there something you can do about it? instead of passively enforcing them because you "have to".. u can make suggestions, etc..
LaxRef
11-22-2005, 01:40 PM
I think that's quite an extreme comparison, that isn't even in the same realm.. what I was referring to about "if you don't agree with the rules.. etc" was that if you don't like rules you are supposed to enforce, isn't there something you can do about it? instead of passively enforcing them because you "have to".. u can make suggestions, etc..
I agree totally, and I am very active in making suggestions about changing the rules. But if they don't accept my suggestions, I have to enforce the rules, not just the ones I think are reasonab.le
WHEELAX2
11-22-2005, 01:59 PM
I would just hi lite all the ones I liked, then explain to the coaches before the game, the rules we were going to play by.. ok.. just kidding...
pboyd
11-22-2005, 06:19 PM
I don't understand the addition of "This shall include technical and personal fouls by either team." It seems to contradict 7-6.b.2(a) and (b). Wheelax's arguments make good sense to me and have me questioning the new AR although I agree it's in alignment with the rule as previously written w/o the above addition.
Pboyd: I think the addition you are questioning refers to the "all players involved will serve..." in the previous sentence. The player who comitted the loose ball technical, and the player who comitted the personal.