[Politics] Border Security

[Thrillhouse]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/29/AR2005112901392.html

While I think we need to enforce our immigration laws, I also think migrant workers are important to the economy.
The way I see it, there is a demand for jobs that American citizens don’t want, like picking fruit. There is also a supply of workers that are willing to do that work. The breakdown is, since it is technically illegal to use this supply of workers, any employer that is willing to assume the risk can use migrant workers for jobs that American’s do want, like construction.
It seems logical to me to allow these workers into the country to legally work at the jobs American’s don’t want. It would protect the employers as they won’t be breaking the law anymore, it would help protect American’s from losing their job to a non-citizen who is willing to do it cheaper, and it would protect the non-citizens as I’m sure they would rather enter the country through the front gate instead of sneaking through the desert at night.

I must admit, I’m basing my experiences off of things that I’ve read. I would love to hear the opinions from members who live in Border States and see the problem first hand. (Of course, everyone’s opinion is welcome…)

[LaxCrazy17]

Yea I know what your saying. It's easier to hire a bunch of immagrants, whom they can pay a lot less, than American workers, who demand more money for their work. And I totally agree. It's not right, but it's how it works, if it ever changes, I'll be very surprised.

~Robin

[roycegracie47]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/29/AR2005112901392.html

While I think we need to enforce our immigration laws, I also think migrant workers are important to the economy.
The way I see it, there is a demand for jobs that American citizens don’t want, like picking fruit. There is also a supply of workers that are willing to do that work. The breakdown is, since it is technically illegal to use this supply of workers, any employer that is willing to assume the risk can use migrant workers for jobs that American’s do want, like construction.
It seems logical to me to allow these workers into the country to legally work at the jobs American’s don’t want. It would protect the employers as they won’t be breaking the law anymore, it would help protect American’s from losing their job to a non-citizen who is willing to do it cheaper, and it would protect the non-citizens as I’m sure they would rather enter the country through the front gate instead of sneaking through the desert at night.

I must admit, I’m basing my experiences off of things that I’ve read. I would love to hear the opinions from members who live in Border States and see the problem first hand. (Of course, everyone’s opinion is welcome…)

I pretty much took away the same thoughts from the article, but I want to know that after these temporary guest worker visas expire, how tough the enforcement will be for those who choose not to reapply, as well as how solidly the plan can be implemented at its outset. Specifically like what seperates it from a standard work visa, what extra restrictions will be applied, and like I said, to what degree will post-expiration enforcement be brought up. This is fast becoming an issue in the DC metro area, especially NoVa and PG though I see it starting to grow in MoCo.

This can't be the be all, end all to solving the border crossing problem of course, but I'm interested to see if such an idea could succeed, and exactly what numbers of illegals crossing borders will change.

[ColtsLax]

there was an article in a Mexican paper saying that my town, Freehold, was the best place to find work. Well more mexicans came than job, So now we have all of these illegals who dont work and live i a big tent city in the woods around town. They move around so the cops cant find them. Our taxes have risen a whole buch to pay for school and medical expenses that go with these people having to support their families. It pisses me off that i can find them but the cops cant. We need to get these guys out, because they are ruining my town.

[TheKOB]

I think the problem with immigration goes far beyond cheap labor. The US has the best institutions of higher learning in the world. The best and brightest from all over the world come to study here. Partly due to harsh immigration laws, they ususally go back to their home countries. I read an article that said every Ph.D certificate should come with a green card stapled to it. I'd say that if we did that, we'd once again be a leader in all things technological and research related.

Getting a green card, let alone citizenship is pretty much rife with government slowdowns and bureaucracy. At least speed up the process and make it easier. It's ludicrous.

[roycegracie47]

KOB, The thing is having a Master's of PhD from an American institution generally goes farther in the world than one from an school overseas. I myself had looked into obtaining my Master's in Japan but was discouraged by my advisor (and this was the only time he ever discouraged any of my crackpot ideas) because it would have been useless outside of Japan. My Dad earned his PhD in Tel Aviv but is rarely called Dr. or Prof in the US except at the one CC he teaches for, though he does love being called Herr Professor Doktor whenever he's in Germany.

I agree with you. Many of my international friends, mostly Chinese and Korean had difficulty renewing their visas to stay in the US to work.obtain their master's following our graduation, and it was speed or lack thereof that killed them in the renewal process.

[laxrat22]

ok heres my impute. i live 10 minutes away from the largest border crossing in the world- san diego/tijuana. our local economy is driven from migrant workers, but its a problem. the crime rates in the southern part of the county where the higher concentration of mexicans live is much higher than those of other parts of the county. you always have to keep an eye out around these parts. i think they should have a work program for these illigal workers so they can safely cross everyday to work up here instead of risking their lives crossing illegally. but illegal immigration won't stop, ever i don't think, as long as there's opportunity here they'll come'

[Thrillhouse]

I think the problem with immigration goes far beyond cheap labor. The US has the best institutions of higher learning in the world. The best and brightest from all over the world come to study here. Partly due to harsh immigration laws, they ususally go back to their home countries. I read an article that said every Ph.D certificate should come with a green card stapled to it. I'd say that if we did that, we'd once again be a leader in all things technological and research related.

Getting a green card, let alone citizenship is pretty much rife with government slowdowns and bureaucracy. At least speed up the process and make it easier. It's ludicrous.

I’m going to have to disagree with you on that one. We wouldn’t have a problem with illegal Mexican immigration if Mexico had a stronger economy. If we hoard the best and the brightest from around the world, those countries will just get poorer and illegal immigration will get worse. I say let them got back to their countries and let them lead those countries to a stronger economy.
Although, with Mexico, and many other developing nations, the problem isn’t so much with stupid leaders, it’s corrupt leaders. It’s up to the Mexican people to fix that problem.

[TheKOB]

I’m going to have to disagree with you on that one. We wouldn’t have a problem with illegal Mexican immigration if Mexico had a stronger economy. If we hoard the best and the brightest from around the world, those countries will just get poorer and illegal immigration will get worse. I say let them got back to their countries and let them lead those countries to a stronger economy.
Although, with Mexico, and many other developing nations, the problem isn’t so much with stupid leaders, it’s corrupt leaders. It’s up to the Mexican people to fix that problem.

I wasn't really talking about the problems with illegal immigration, I was just going off on a tangent about immigration being the answer to some of our other troubles.

[Thrillhouse]

I wasn't really talking about the problems with illegal immigration, I was just going off on a tangent about immigration being the answer to some of our other troubles.

I read another article that said that to apply for a travel visa to the US, a Mexican has to pay a non-refundable $100 fee.
Could you imagine Mexico asking an American for $100 to visit TJ?!
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1135872,00.html

[roycegracie47]

^^^well that link offered up a bit more info than the last one, at least for what I wanted to know. 6 year visas, but having to return home before applying again. So no chance for renewal notcie at the close of the visa without leaving America, plus the general distrust in the visa application process/bureacracy is really going to win out? I think this plan sunk itself amongst many not willing to put much faith in it.

[anjang86]

I think the problem with immigration goes far beyond cheap labor. The US has the best institutions of higher learning in the world. The best and brightest from all over the world come to study here. Partly due to harsh immigration laws, they ususally go back to their home countries. I read an article that said every Ph.D certificate should come with a green card stapled to it. I'd say that if we did that, we'd once again be a leader in all things technological and research related.

Getting a green card, let alone citizenship is pretty much rife with government slowdowns and bureaucracy. At least speed up the process and make it easier. It's ludicrous.

You took the words right out of my mouth. My dad got his PhD back in '96 and we still don't have a Green Card... even though we've lived in the States for 14-15 years now. I know my uncles that win a Green Card in a week through the DV lottery and it takes us 20 years to do it the hard way (hopefully).

[OutBurst]

Let's spend more money that we don't have. Yes, let's do that, cut taxes, fight wars we don't need to, help out the rest of the world, and leave the rest for our own well-being.

[Ram-X-manII]

there was an article in a Mexican paper saying that my town, Freehold, was the best place to find work. Well more mexicans came than job, So now we have all of these illegals who dont work and live i a big tent city in the woods around town. They move around so the cops cant find them. Our taxes have risen a whole buch to pay for school and medical expenses that go with these people having to support their families. It pisses me off that i can find them but the cops cant. We need to get these guys out, because they are ruining my town.

Incredibly i am doing this topic in debate class. I understand your frustraqtion but the fat is you can not deny these people basic needs like education, food, and such. It goes against the fourteenth amendment of the constitution. How much have these people raised the taxes in your town? Do youknow this or are you just saying that because you hear its true? Illegal Immigrants from Mexico send 4 to 6 billion dollars back to mexico each year. It is their second largest form of international revenue. Now i doubt that your raise in taxes that you may or may not have does little to effect your standard of living as much as this 4-6 Billion does to the people of Mexico. Think global, man. :thumbsup:

[TheKOB]

Let's spend more money that we don't have. Yes, let's do that, cut taxes, fight wars we don't need to, help out the rest of the world, and leave the rest for our own well-being.

Is there a point that's relevent in there, or is this just the standard liberal cut and paste argument to anything? :nut:

[OutBurst]

Is there a point that's relevent in there, or is this just the standard liberal cut and paste argument to anything? :nut:

We don't have the money to build the wall that the government wants. Point.

Just because it is popular doesn't mean it is wrong.

[TheKOB]

We don't have the money to build the wall that the government wants. Point.

Just because it is popular doesn't mean it is wrong.

Walls don't really work, at least I didn't think so.

[ColtsLax]

Incredibly i am doing this topic in debate class. I understand your frustraqtion but the fat is you can not deny these people basic needs like education, food, and such. It goes against the fourteenth amendment of the constitution. How much have these people raised the taxes in your town? Do youknow this or are you just saying that because you hear its true? Illegal Immigrants from Mexico send 4 to 6 billion dollars back to mexico each year. It is their second largest form of international revenue. Now i doubt that your raise in taxes that you may or may not have does little to effect your standard of living as much as this 4-6 Billion does to the people of Mexico. Think global, man. :thumbsup:
What 14 ammendment, they are not citizens, they are not protected by our constitution?

our taxes were raised by 10%(property) in 2 years, its a lot

[ColtsLax]

Walls don't really work, at least I didn't think so.
it worked in berlin, it kept the people seperated

[OutBurst]

it worked in berlin, it kept the people seperated

Ouch. Zing. Bamboozled.

[TheKOB]

it worked in berlin, it kept the people seperated

it wasn't so much the wall, it was the mine fields, german shepards, communist guards, and razor wire that kept the people seperated. Remembering when all of those were removed, it didn't take the people that long to take down the wall.

Unless you're suggesting doing something like that all along our boarder with Mexico, I'd say it might be a good idea to try and find another solution.

I have heard that, as primitive, short, and as lacking good vertical leaping skills, that doesn't stop Mexicans from making use of ladders..... New plan?

(random noises showing message board dominance)

[Formerlaxdemon]

it worked in berlin, it kept the people seperated


That is did Coltslax. I was living in West Germany when the wall came down. I lived in the city of Augsburg and the people there were not happy at all to see the wall come down as they felt that their Eastern kin would be a drain on their society and not really aid in the future of a united Germany; simply the two countries should have remained separate. Those that I still talk to there feel that now, almost a decade after the wall came down, their worst fears came to pass.

[ColtsLax]

it wasn't so much the wall, it was the mine fields, german shepards, communist guards, and razor wire that kept the people seperated. Remembering when all of those were removed, it didn't take the people that long to take down the wall.

Unless you're suggesting doing something like that all along our boarder with Mexico, I'd say it might be a good idea to try and find another solution.

I have heard that, as primitive, short, and as lacking good vertical leaping skills, that doesn't stop Mexicans from making use of ladders..... New plan?

(random noises showing message board dominance)
its not like were going to build a wall and then leave. we erect sniper towers, miles apart. Some sniper rifles can shoot miles. and we can use some automated machine guns and razer wire too, for good measure.

im just saying that walls can work.

[OutBurst]

The Great Wall of China was pretty effective too.

[roycegracie47]

The Great Wall of China was pretty effective too.
Meh, The Mongols just went around the sections...so did the Manchus.

[TheKOB]

its not like were going to build a wall and then leave. we erect sniper towers, miles apart. Some sniper rifles can shoot miles. and we can use some automated machine guns and razer wire too, for good measure.

im just saying that walls can work.

yeah, I'm sure everyone in the press would love that. About how many snipers would we need? The government gets into trouble for executing criminals who kill and rape multiple people....how about killing men, women, and children on sight for simply wanting something better?

I think we do already have a wall down there, but it's ineffective

[roycegracie47]

It's more a chain-link fence than a wall isn't it?

[TheKOB]

That is did Coltslax. I was living in West Germany when the wall came down. I lived in the city of Augsburg and the people there were not happy at all to see the wall come down as they felt that their Eastern kin would be a drain on their society and not really aid in the future of a united Germany; simply the two countries should have remained separate. Those that I still talk to there feel that now, almost a decade after the wall came down, their worst fears came to pass.

I've heard that there was a great deal of prejudice from the west germans towards the east germans to begin with.

I haven't been there recently, but I don't think that their worst fears came to pass. Yeah, there was some initial problems but now Germany has a shortage of labor and has to import workers (who, btw, they treat as second class citizens...)

[TheKOB]

It's more a chain-link fence than a wall isn't it?

I think in spots it's an actual wooden wall quite a few feet high.

If you guys think our border security expenses are high now, try turning that whole border with Mexico into a DMZ.

[roycegracie47]

I think in spots it's an actual wooden wall quite a few feet high.

If you guys think our border security expenses are high now, try turning that whole border with Mexico into a DMZ.
That's sounds like just the tip of the iceberg with this plan seeing as it calls for detention centers and spy planes. Now it just needs gurads from each border to stare each other in the face, completely immoble for hours on end while others march around in formation.

[ColtsLax]

yeah, well germany got plunged into a depression when the wall fell because the east was poor, and the west wasnt, so the west had to p[ay to rebuild the infrastructure to connect the two cities. They had to help the east back on its feet, and i sapped a lot of west germanys strength. Germany has some serious problems, and if you just go into a west city and an east city, you can see the differance

[laxrat22]

Walls don't really work, at least I didn't think so.

ya, it would be a big waste of money to build a wall across the whole border. the ones they have now don't work very well. what we need is beefed up security, more man power, unfortunately we don't have the money for it. thats why i think volunteer citizens (minute men) aren't a bad idea. but they should have to go through some training so they know what to do and don't cross the line. but all the hispanic civil leaders like to geton the news and portray them as gun-tottin rednecks that are there to shoot at them, so people oppose them.

[roycegracie47]

but they should have to go through some training so they know what to do and don't cross the line. but all the hispanic civil leaders like to geton the news and portray them as gun-tottin rednecks that are there to shoot at them, so people oppose them.


Unfortunately an equal ammount of "minutemen" have come close to portraying this. As for training, I don't think that's the answer. You'd still need a law enforcement officer (local police, INS, although at that point they should be enforcing the law) because I just don't trust them as "volunteers" to not cross the line. Sure, some may be very good at just spotting and reporting, I just have this fear that those few who are the crazy, gun-totting, good ol'boys will ruin it for the ones who stayed within the bounds of just being a concerned citizen.

[Frndlefire]

I'm just curious. One of the major arguments for allowing or condoning illegal immigration is that those workers will take jobs that no american will (example here was fruit picking). Now, is it that no Americans will take these jobs, or is it just that no Americans will take these jobs at the substandard wage that they employers are willing to offer? If it's the latter I feel this isn't a valid arguement...then again...I'm one of these crazys that believe you should be able to feed wife and two children (national average) if you work 40 hours a week.

[Thrillhouse]

I'm just curious. One of the major arguments for allowing or condoning illegal immigration is that those workers will take jobs that no american will (example here was fruit picking). Now, is it that no Americans will take these jobs, or is it just that no Americans will take these jobs at the substandard wage that they employers are willing to offer? If it's the latter I feel this isn't a valid arguement...then again...I'm one of these crazys that believe you should be able to feed wife and two children (national average) if you work 40 hours a week.

American’s don’t want jobs migrant workers do because they don’t pay a lot and they are seasonal. A farmer’s profit margin is pretty slim as it is, if he makes a profit at all. If a farmer had to pay fruit pickers more money, the price of the products would have to go up. It’s going to be a lot harder for a man to feed his family of four if the price of lettuce is $5 a head.

I’ve been reading articles that farmers that rely on migrant workers had a bad season because there is a short supply of workers. Part of it is tighter border security, but more of it is the migrant workers were heading to the Gulf Coast to work higher paying construction jobs.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/10/12/MNG53F74SK1.DTL

[Formerlaxdemon]

it worked in berlin, it kept the people seperated


I posted something about the Berlin wall (having lived in West Germany at the end of the Cold War) and then my post was deleted. I guess it was wrong of me to state what my friends and neighbors thought of both the wall and the reunification of Germany and then to use that as the basis for comparison of a similiar American bulwark. Oh well. I don't know why it would have been deleted. I have never had a moderator or administrator so much as email me with warnings regarding anything I have ever posted.