Starting up a Box Franchise in the States..(thanks for the kick start roadies) [Archive]

WHEELAX2

12-01-2005, 10:19 AM

With the help of roadies, I've decided to investigate the possibility of creating a box lacrosse team here in the states..

I've always struggled with the fact that the area I live in is such a powerhouse in lacrosse, yet there really aren't many opportunities to play lacrosse locally after college, or even in the summer.

of course we have summer leagues and "box" lacrosse, but it really isn't true box lacrosse, and the summer leagues are sometimes a drag...

I guess this is a formal announcement that I will be investigating the possibility of taking on the business venture of owning a Senior level lacrosse program..

Most likely I will be pressing to enter the upcoming season in the Can Am league.

the only problem is coming up with all costs associated with such a venture.

ie .. uniforms/equipment, referees, facility rental, insurance, travel, league fees if any, etc, etc....

so, with your help, I think I can pull this off...

I need a lot of brainstorming and good ideas associated with starting a new franchise... I do realize that many of you are not businessmen/women, accountants, team owners, experienced adults, etc, but I think I can draw a lot from thoughtful conversation about this...

so, what do u think?? and I would like to discourage one-liner posts.. please take time to really think about this...

thanks!

#15Roadies

12-01-2005, 10:25 AM

OK, well I have put in one email to the QLL prez, and I'll talk with the OLA Veep for Men's (he's a good friend and probably knows everything to know) and maybe put in a few requests to the local club the Brooklin Merchants. Stay tuned for more info.

I think getting an Excel spreadsheet together to forecast costs would be your first start. Once you get a decent idea of costs, then you can quickly put a business plan together to fish with in the local community. May want to stick to Corning, but solicit in Elmira too. Not sure of the county populations though, so gather demographic statistics are good.

Maybe start an informal survey of local lacrosse players to gauge interest. Your first year you may get some hemming and hawwing, and have to import.

Hey, name the team dude!

roycegracie47

12-01-2005, 11:15 AM

This should go without saying when forming any new team, but start looking into likely sponsors both corporate and local. Corporate such as a lax company for taking care of unis/equip, the almost obligatory beer company for ref/league/other fees (they are generally very generous in helping out, including unis and the likes so long as they have they're logo everywhere). Look into local lax shops, sporting good stores, bars (especially bars, the closer to the arena the better as they'll probably kick in some rent money and team specials as well as for fundraising for travel/misc expenses). So I'd say in addition to the cost spreadsheet, start researching possible sponsors and drafting proposals. The more anal you are about this, the better results you will get.

now I just need to find a way to do this locally for me.

yesdog

12-01-2005, 11:15 AM

Hey man I been waiting for somebody to try this and you seem to be just the person to try it. I personally live in Virginia (Richmond area) and if you were thinking of going to more than just New York and surrounding states, I already have a group of guys that know their way around a rink and even can scrounge up two goalies who have played box some. As for cost most of us down here that don't go to private schools are used to paying money to fund our teams so uniforms and such could be handled by us. We've got a place down here that we can rent out to play and i got a set of goals and all. As for refs once you get your rules standardized I have two buddies of mine that ref regulary who could ref games down here. But I think that maybe your best choice for this whole thing, if you go the several states route, would be to have each team run themselves, have your standard rules etc. , set up schedules with a member of each of the teams that everyone agrees on, and just have the teams travel down on their own for games.

yesdog

12-01-2005, 11:23 AM

Oh, and antother thing what age limit are you tinking abou becasue the younger (to a certain point) the more people you'll get interested. And I also just remebered that a guy I know runs a rec league for feild down here and he said that he wouldn't have any problem using league funds to sponsor a team form here if you want it.

KnightsLAXDad

12-01-2005, 11:42 AM

Good on ya WHEELAX!

A few things spring to mind. First thing is have you established where you are going to play. I don't mean arena-wise, but league-wise. You mentioned the Can-Am league, but have you contacted them to see if they will take on another team? What jurisdication would you fall under (i.e. is Can-Am part of Ontario Lacrosse, CLA, US Lacrosse, or completely on it's own.)

You may also want to try US Lacrosse. I seem to remember they have programs to get things like this started, although it may be geared more to youth programs.

As far as cost, I think that equipment will probably be the least of of your worries in the beginning. All you really need is a set, possibly two, of jerseys. The rest can be player-provided, or offset by sponsorship. Your biggest expenditures will be franchise fees, insurance, travel, facilities. These require cold, hard cash. Again, some of this may be rolled into fees paid to whatever association the team/club belongs to.

Other things like getting certified box referees for games. If there are none local, then you have to pay to bring them in etc etc

A good place to inquire would be on the unofficial OLA forums http://www.network54.com/Forum/333879/ . Alot of knowledgeable people, and there has been expansion of both Jr A and Jr B franchises in the past year or two. There should a wealth of knowledge about what it takes. I wouldn't count on any useful information or help from either the CLA or OLA though.

I also know most of the people who recently brought a Jr A. franchise to Ottawa. I can try to solicit more info from them if you have specific questions. Feel free to PM me sometime.

Cheers...KLD

KnightsLAXDad

12-01-2005, 11:57 AM

#15Roadies

12-01-2005, 12:11 PM

I would go straight to Butch for enquiries. Ron knows lots of things, but too many contacts is confusing. Go right to the source and the guy that can give you the skinny up front.

He should be able to give provide you with a ballpark figure for start up - although 40k seems a tad pricey for a NY Sr. B franchise.

WHEELAX2

12-01-2005, 12:23 PM

I would start by contacting Ron Pallister (I got the name off of the Senior B Lax site http://www.seniorblacrosse.com/ )

It looks like that Can-Am lacrosse falls under the CLA. The contact info fromt he CLA site is:

CANAM Lacrosse
c/o Butch Jimerson
13764 Four Mile Level Road
Gowanda, NY 14070

Contact: Butch Jimerson - President
Phone: (716) 532-4548
Cell: (716) 998-7358

I've already contacted ronnie, and Butch helped get me into the league last year...

anyway.. I thought that if all else fails, money wise, etc,,, I could at least get a bunch of ex d1 guys together and possibly scrimmage a lot of the can am teams..(this would be a last resort though)

stegmakk

12-01-2005, 12:30 PM

Unfortunately I do not think the CLA (CANADIAN lacrosse assoc) will allow a US team to play in any of their divisions...if they do then that is the first hurdle...

Second is the age level you want to play at...if you are talking younger than post college you have the whole amateur vs professional issues and not paying players to play...

Third...start to check out all of the rules and regulations first about sponsors, fields, etc (maybe no bars, maybe the field needs to be a certain condition or material, etc)...

Then I would say you can start researching prices of locations, sponsors, etc...

Next would be marketing...could you get fans...if so what price can you charge, how much marketing would you need to do etc...

The project is not something that will get underway in 1 year...it might take 1.5 to 2 or longer depending on how much time you can dedicate to the project...

WHEELAX2

12-01-2005, 12:59 PM

that's what I was thinking about the time frame.. that's also why I would like to at least field a team for scrimmages and such... (this will give people in the area an idea of what box is like, and it would serve to give me a good indication of the potential for success

RockStar

12-01-2005, 01:06 PM

Unfortunately I do not think the CLA (CANADIAN lacrosse assoc) will allow a US team to play in any of their divisions...if they do then that is the first hurdle...........

No worries with many of your points, Steg.

Can-Am league is a mostly NY state based league. It is a "Senior B" level member league of the CLA.Officially it's an amateur league, so even current collegians could probably play with the senior amateurs/semi pros. (I know for a fact that several high-profile NCAA scholarship players have played Senior A in Ontario in recent years). As far as sponsors - if Can-Am is anything like OLA Senior B and Senior A, it'll be a free-for-all (The only criteria for sponsors will be that they gave you money! I've seen strip clubs named on the back of player jerseys!).

As far as getting going, I think our friend is most definitely too late for summer 2006, but could certainly shoot for 2007. Biggest hurdle is getting Can-Am to open up to another team, as this is really the only league that makes sense geographically.

Good Luck! If you get this off the ground, I'm coming down for a game!

#15Roadies

12-01-2005, 01:27 PM

Yeah, I received a message back from the QLL and their 2006 application acceptance date was a month ago. But no worries, talk with Butch first. I believe the Can-Am may be a little more flexible in terms of acceptance.

On the other hand, you could create a team and play a 10-15 game exhibition season in 2006, then full membership in 2007. That would give you the advantage of working all the bugs out of the operation and maybe give some good box exposure to those that not aware.

Rockstar quote: "The level of violence can be absolutely staggering for someone not used to it, so know what you're getting into!" You want to make sure your core guys have a good idea of what to expect.

An exhibition team would still cost you, with the refs and all, but I am sure that if you got the support of the Can-Am they would help you out as much as they could. Of course, you could seek some support from the NLL too!

I am with Rockstar - build it and they will come. Well at least a couple of hacks from the GTA will! And have replica jerseys too!

WHEELAX2

12-01-2005, 01:31 PM

the deadline for the Can-am league is January 7th, but I'm not sure I can be nearly prepared by then.. I think I'm going to go to their meeting and discuss what options are available.. of course, before then, I'll be trying to gain as much info as possible, and shopping the idea around a lot..

KnightsLAXDad

12-01-2005, 01:35 PM

Yeah, I received a message back from the QLL and their 2006 application acceptance date was a month ago. But no worries, talk with Butch first. I believe the Can-Am may be a little more flexible in terms of acceptance.

Not to discourage you, but the QLL would be a long haul from Corning. Aren't most of the teams Montreal, and further east, based? You'd be a lot closer to home with Can-Am, being mostly northern NY and southern ON.

WHEELAX2

12-01-2005, 01:39 PM

Not to discourage you, but the QLL would be a long haul from Corning. Aren't most of the teams Montreal, and further east, based? You'd be a lot closer to home with Can-Am, being mostly northern NY and southern ON.

yeah, that's pretty much what I've decided already.. there are already teams in Syracuse, buffalo, and right over the border in Niagara falls... I think the can am league would provide the best geographical solution

#15Roadies

12-01-2005, 02:11 PM

Yeah, I still don't have a good idea where Corning is in the big picture...

Anyways, if their deadline is Jan. 7th and you have a solid business plan and some sponsorship interest, you may get provisional acceptance. You want to start hiring staff (er, I mean volunteers!) to help you getting things done.

KnightsLAXDad

12-01-2005, 02:42 PM

Corning would be roughly 100 miles due south of Picton or 130-140mi SE of Toronto metro.(rough estimate from Google Maps).

WHEELAX, one idea is to recruit a "Sports Management" student from a local (Junior)College who is looking for a case study or experience to give you hand. It's win-win since you get free help, and they get hands-on experience. Try contacting one of the local college faculties.

#15Roadies

12-01-2005, 03:59 PM

"Miles?" What's a "miles?" :chuckle: Sheesh, I was thinking that Elmira was south of Albany for some reason. Duh.

KnightsLAXDad

12-01-2005, 04:27 PM

"Miles?" What's a "miles?" :chuckle: Sheesh, I was thinking that Elmira was south of Albany for some reason. Duh.

I'm old, eh! I'm of the generation that was in grade school when metric was introduced. I mix the two. I work better in miles than kilometers and use pounds not kilograms. :grin:

I also know what 45's and LP's are.....

BelliesLax

12-01-2005, 05:29 PM

Box in THe states would be a good idea

Hooligan

12-01-2005, 07:34 PM

Box in THe states would be a good idea
Before box in the states can exist, field players have got to understand the two games are completely different. That the only thing they have in common are lacrosse balls, sticks, and the common goal of netting as many shots as possible.

WHEELAX2

12-02-2005, 07:01 AM

yeah.. I just want people to at least get an opportunity to watch and play..
I believe that some field players may have better skill sets that would work with the box format as opposed to the field format..

#15Roadies

12-02-2005, 07:01 AM

"...the only thing they have in common are..." {wait there are a few more}

Picks, pick 'n roll, screens (both kinds), body checking, running, sprinting, using open space, fakes, dodges, cutting, inside shooting, most equipment and... more I am sure.

Any kid in central New York that is smart enough to be a decent field player, will be smart enough to adapt to box. I think the biggest challenges are adjusting playing habits and cross-checking.

I say this because: there AREN'T ENOUGH YANKS PLAYING BOX LACROSSE!!! :wow:

There, rant over, now back to the thread.

Wheelax2, I was graced with the OLA Sr B by-law doc today, so I'll have a look and tease out some pertinent information. Stay tuned.

#15Roadies

12-02-2005, 07:30 AM

The entry fee for the OLA Sr. B league is:

$4000.00 consisting of $1000.00 upon application & $3000.00 upon membership acceptance.

New members pay an equity share on the Sr. B Council bank balance (not sure what this means)

$500.00 Presidents Cup fee (the Council will then pay the entry fee)

$100.00 per playoff home game (gate share)

The OLA has year dues and they are:

Dues: $810.00 per team

11.00 per person per year for Insurance (not sure if Can-Am pays this fee)
(lets say $240.00 per team)

So that would be about $5500.00 plus a bit to start a team in the OLA Sr. B circuit. Remember these figures are in funny-munny, so the Can-Am is probably less than these figures and probably a whole lot more flexible.

Not sure if the CLA has similar fees, but they do have some cool info:

Club Handbook (http://www.lacrosse.ca/handbook.asp) - this will give you an idea about how to form a community run club (i.e. with volunteers)

#15Roadies

12-02-2005, 07:47 AM

Box lacrosse jerseys could probably be had for about $1200.00 USD for a very basic home/away set. ($20.00 X 30 X 2 sets)

Shorts - probably half the above.

You must have matching team helmets (and maybe gloves) so I'll let you do the math on that. They could be fancy shmancy field buckets (big $$$) , or you could go with a set of Bauer hockey helmets + Oneil cages. (less big $$$)

Then there is goalie equipment for goalies - they usually have their own but... Now, how many good box goalies do you know? Hey, there was this big guy in Rochesta that stoned us at the Fann Cup - while I don't think he is NLL calibre, he could pan out to fill in the pipes in Sr. B.

One way to recoupe costs is to levy a player fee to cover the costs of new equipment.

PS - referee fees are $100.00 per game for $1400.00 for the season

WHEELAX2

12-02-2005, 08:06 AM

This is what I've come up with so far.. I have the Can Am Franchise Application, and start up fees..

Annual Membership: 350.00 (not sure if it's canadian/american $$)

Deposit of a Negotiable bond, to be repaid in three years less any expenses

1000.00 (Ca or US, not sure)

a sedond bond for playing of matches, and fulfillment of financial obligations to the association, its officials, and other members.. 1000.00

annual meeting January 7th ath the Tonowanda Council House (I'm assuming it's near Buffalo where the Tonowanda Braves play)

as far as matching buckets.. I remember that no one on our team had a matching helmet nor matching colors for helmets.. some teams did have matching gear, but ours did not.. (if we have to match, I would require players to purchase )...

as far as jerseys.. I'm thinking that we would probably purchase a set for each player that would be paid for by each player, assuming that we would be on an exhibition level.. If we were not at the exhibition level, the team would have to purchase such gear, and probably charge each player a deposit fee to ensure that they returned the gear accordingly (but that's something to work out)..
jerseys roughly 2500.00 or so, depending on our status..

#15Roadies

12-02-2005, 08:17 AM

Excellent work Wheelax! I thought the Can-Am would be as cheap and as flexible.

So you are looking at an initial 5k?

WHEELAX2

12-02-2005, 08:22 AM

I'm thinking that it might be a little more considering unexpected costs, etc.. I can see them charging extra for refs, etc, and if I have to use any other services for promotions, etc..

#15Roadies

12-02-2005, 08:34 AM

Just aside: did you contact the ILA about a Jr. B franchise in their proposed NY Jr. B league? Apparently there was some interest from Elmira. If there are other folks from that area interested, this could be a very good opportunity for both clubs. Having a feeder team for call-ups would be a good thing...

WHEELAX2

12-02-2005, 09:27 AM

Haven't contacted them yet, but I'm going to..

Senior B is for 21 yrs and up right?

#15Roadies

12-02-2005, 09:51 AM

Yeah, Sr. B is for 21 years and up, but I believe you can have younger call-ups if required.

WHEELAX2

12-02-2005, 09:53 AM

so, would they have to be members of a junior squad for an official call up?

#15Roadies

12-02-2005, 10:11 AM

I'm not sure. Generally in our case up here, the call-ups are all juniors.

In the OLA Sr. B by-laws it says that you must submit your final signed roster of 25 players by July 1st to the OLA. It doesn't specify where those signings can come from, so I would speculate that the Can-Am has regulations on this that are, again, pretty flexible. You could sign anyone so long as they are 'sign-able.'

WHEELAX2

12-02-2005, 10:31 AM

I remember that I didn't even have to sign until like our 5th game or so..

and signing just basically means that the players won't just up and leave u dry right??

WHEELAX2

12-02-2005, 11:43 AM

Ok.. so I'm going to the January 7th meeting to give my proposal..

here are some potential team names::

crystal city pilots

finger lakes pilots

western pilots

the base of the team will be western new york, specifically corning new york.. corning ny is known as the crystal city, and is famous for it's glass making artisans and corningware.. I took the word pilots from the lumber trade many years ago.. these "pilots" would navigate lumber down the chemung canal for further processing... now, the area is known as the soaring capital, as gliders are very popular in the area.. the corning area was heavily populated by native americans and most recently the iriquois nation. corning also merged with knoxville to make what is now the City of corning..

if anyone can work anything historical into the team name, it would be greatly appreciated..

i'm really thinking pilots, but I need a first name, or maybe a totally new one if someone has a suggestion

#15Roadies

12-02-2005, 12:27 PM

Signing means that the players you have will be the players you go with in the playoffs and President's Cup tourney. No bringing in ringers for the finals (although there are ways around that!)

Now players can bail on you anytime, but they won't be able to play for another team without a release. When you file your final roster you have to indicate all your releases too. At least in the OLA Sr. B league you do. Not sure about Can-Am.

However, if you have so many players bail and you don't have enough to field a team for games or whatever you forfeit your perfomance bond. Hence you can sign 25 guys, but I think 12 is the minimum to play a game.

Pilots sounds like a cool name!

WHEELAX2

12-02-2005, 12:45 PM

I just talked to ron, he thinks I should write up a proposal to present in the meeting on January 7th.. he thinks that if it were on an exhibition level for the first year, that I would have to ask each team individually if they wanted to play us during their practice time.. of course they would reap the benefits of playing unknown players, and make a little off it in turn; while we would be gaining critical experience, and test the marketability of the franchise in the area..

I'm working on a website now..

how does western new york pilots sound??

#15Roadies

12-02-2005, 01:25 PM

Well, if it is an exhibition team for the first year... then also check with Ron about a Can-Am exhibition team coming up to Ontario for a weekend in May to play some exhibitions with the OLA Sr. B's teams, or contact Mike Mitchell about playing some ILA teams... or...probably a better fit to get started - contact René Cournoyer, QSLL prez about some games up there.

Here is the QSLL site (http://www.crossesenior.qc.ca/senior/accueil.php) - they even have some videos up there now - scroll down to the Extrait vidéos section.

WHEELAX2

12-02-2005, 02:20 PM

I think I'm going to work with as many teams as possible, most likely, we'll play some teams from other leagues as well.. for now, is's just a matter of really thinking this thing through

WHEELAX2

12-05-2005, 09:46 AM

website started, but who knows where it's going!

http://www.geocities.com/dlisi220/crystal_city_pilots.html

#15Roadies

12-05-2005, 10:25 AM

I think you should start with some content regarding the game itself, a little history and a little blurb on the Can-Am league. Then maybe some box pix and such...

WHEELAX2

12-05-2005, 11:20 AM

well, this "mock-up" site is strictly to legitimize the effort for when I shop the team around to potential sponsors, etc.. once we have a roster, sponsors, home arena, league status, etc.. it will be updated and have its own website..

WHEELAX2

12-05-2005, 02:31 PM

ok.. Business plan is about 70% complete.. just need to complete it and come up with a proposal to present at the annual meeting on January 7th

#15Roadies

12-07-2005, 12:58 PM

bumped for news...

WHEELAX2

12-07-2005, 01:06 PM

no real news as of late. I have much of my business plan completed. I still have to review and tweek it. I'm also in the process of formulating a proposal to present my idea to the Can Am league on January 7th. I am also working with a few sponsors now, Bud Light, Coca-Cola, and one area bar. One of my major problem areas is going to be getting a squad of at least 15-20 super-dedicated players. I also think initial funding is going to be a hurdle. once I shop the idea around, and see what options I have, I'll have a better idea of what this little venture is going to cost.. I do not want to disclose the preliminary financials, but I will tell you that it may reach double digits (thousands that is). Eventually I will need funds for Jerseys, goals, practice gear, in game gear, med kit, etc, etc.... I also need to work with area arenas to sort out fees, etc.. Unfortunately, a few guys I was counting on for the season happened to be drafted to the MLL.. anyway, I'm taking it easy today as I am loaded down at work, but I am going to press hard tonight and see what I can come up with...

RockStar

12-07-2005, 01:35 PM

.....Unfortunately, a few guys I was counting on for the season happened to be drafted to the MLL.....

That's OK, sign them anyway. The CLA will probably let you bring them out in time for the President's Cup tourney!

(Refer to last summer's John Grant Jr. fiasco).

WHEELAX2

12-12-2005, 11:30 AM

ok.. progress has been a tad slow of late.. still working out a few kinks and getting as many players as possible..

boxlaxman

12-12-2005, 01:16 PM

Hey Guys,

Just got through this thread....

It looks great what you are trying to do with the Can-Am league BUT...we need to get things going at a grass-roots level here in the US.

I have been involved in box lacrosse here in the states for over 20 years. I am in the DC area. We have tried, as hard as we can to play "real" box down here and keep the game true. There are several big leagues including the Philadelphia Box Lacrosse League (www.phillyboxlacrosse.com) and the Baltimore Indoor Lacrosse League (visit www.e-lacrosse.com for photos and videos). The BILL has a TON of current and former NLL pros. Billy Curtis from Rebel Lacrosse Wear (www.rebelwear.com) is VERY involved in box. He takes a team to the Czech Republic every year and runs the BILL.

What we need to do is form a national association that can offer sanctioning to all of these little leagues around the USA. I propose the USBLA (United States Box Lacrosse Association). We can unify the rules, equipment and format and hopefully, offer a national championship in the not too distant future.

I'm curious to hear everyone's thoughts....