Canadian Expansion

[PhilWings24]

Howdy. I'm basically looking for a few native Canadians to give me some insight as to wether or not the MLL should expand to canada. I know it would take a back seat to the NLL, as well as a handful of other leagues. But it seems to me that, in general, lacrosse fans want to see lacrosse, and that Toronto could easily draw a better crowd than San Francisco will

That's all, thanks for your time

(by the way, i did a search for this, and as far as i can tell, there are tons of threads discussing similar topics, but none of them discuss the MLL specifically)

[LaxGoalie28]

they will probably, do it. They do it for every sport except football.

[Lax101]

Here's the thing: I think the MLL will do that. The NLL pretty much just slapped the MLL in the face by making their outdoor lacrosse league that's going to directly compete with them. Dave Morrow does not take crap from anyone. He's going to strike back at them. You already saw it with the supplemental draft, where teams were drafting tons of NLL stars (Kelusky, among others)

[#15Roadies]

As much as I would like to see something happen it would be a very tough sell. Once the summer hits, it tough enough to get fans to come to arenas to watch box lacrosse, let alone a stadium somewhere in Toronto to watch field. There are tons of other sports vying for that T.O. stadium dollar. It would be a different thing if pro lacrosse commanded big bucks and a high profile, but the cosmo nature of Toronto would basicaly ignore field as a fringe sport.

Other Ontario centres? It will be interesting to see how field takes off after the world championships in London.

Montreal? Might be a better fit, especially seeing how lacrosse in PQ is growing.

[RockfordAttack9]

I dont think that is going to happen because of the limited number of people in Canada play Field Lacrosse.

[lax-kiddo18]

i deffinantly think they should wait to see how it goes in London for the worlds, but something safer but different would be to have provincial teams in Canada, like all of Ontario would have a team instead of a Toronto or possible Ottawa team, and then they would alternate where they play, half in Ottawa half in Toronto or maybe one more area. this might be to wide, but even a western and eastern teams for Canada. B.C, Alberta is west and Ontario, Quebec and anyone from the Maritimes makes up the East.

[tomahawks11]

toronto or mississauga would absolutely love an MLL franchise... i think it would have to wait a bit though because we just got an MLS franchise

[temporary1357]

toronto or mississauga would absolutely love an MLL franchise... i think it would have to wait a bit though because we just got an MLS franchise
I don't think MLL is big enough to cause any sports overlapping problems. I actually think the MLS team will help Toronto get an MLL team, because the city would want to find more uses for the new soccer stadium they're building.

[tomahawks11]

o yea good point........ i have hope now!!

[RockStar]

Hmmmm, a *******ized version of an unfamiliar sport.

I truthfully don't think an MLL franchise would fly in Toronto. With the exception of the Toronto Rock, second tier pro sports have a terrible track record in Toronto...... (See the Argonauts, teams even struggle when they have a history longer than 100 years!).

There might be several thousand die hard lacrosse fans near Toronto.

Truth be told though, I think that most of these would cram into Iroquois Park Arena for a sweaty Saturday night tilt between the Lakers and Redmen before they'd head downtown, fork out $10 for parking and ~$20 a ticket to watch Toronto vs. Rochester in a version of lacrosse that's less familiar and harder to watch.

My thoughts - MLL Toronto would maybe last a season longer than the Toronto Phantoms did.

For me, I'd go to a few games, but I'd find it hard to get really excited.....it's a decent sport, but it's just not as spectator-friendly as box.

[philly_bloont]

Box lax is the "*******ized" version.

Last time I checked the native americans used longpoles, didn't play indoors, and used a field size much closer to that of outdoor than the intimate confines of box.

[BClax17]

^^^Don't go there...

[Camthrax]

The MLL should at least try it out with a demo game, kind of like the Wild West Tour featuring 2 teams that would have higher profile canadians.

[Lax101]

Box lax is the "*******ized" version.

Last time I checked the native americans used longpoles, didn't play indoors, and used a field size much closer to that of outdoor than the intimate confines of box.
Out of anything, box lacrosse is a *******ized version of hockey. Field lacrosse keeps the game a bit closer to its roots (I could care less if some ogres in box lacrosse still use wooden shafts because they like beating people)

[RockStar]

Box lax is the "*******ized" version.....

Thanks for the history lesson, but.......

If you bothered to read my post and consider the context, it's pretty clear that I meant that the MLL was a *******ized version of field (Field lax being the "unfamiliar sport" I was referring to).

Since you couldn't even decipher my post, I guess you also didn't bother to read your history books well enough to learn that modern day field lax is only marginally closer to the Creator's Game than box is.

What's actually kind of funny is that nowadays box is the more popular form of lacrosse all through Iroquois country. The Natives spotted an obvious improvement, and jumped right in!

[#15Roadies]

"...MLL was a *******ized version of field..." :argue:

No stinking "two point" goal in no ancient Iroquois game I can tell you that!

:nono:

[shiftylax]

You're right, they were still trying to kill each other on the 2 mile long field with giant clubs...If you guys are going to get into an argument about ancient lacrosse I recommend that EVERYONE crack open a history book, because all claims to to "old game" so far have been erroneous.

Lacrosse was a glorified death march that was used to settle land disputes. Lacrosse means "the stick", and it was named by French settlers who stumbled upon a game and thought it was a battle because everyone was beating each other over the head with sticks.

Needless to say, lacrosse was much cooler back then because it wasn't played in a field or a box...

[#15Roadies]

Shiftylax - so far I have read a number of "history" books, including those on lacrosse, cultural and ethnographic studies and such. "2 mile long fields" and "glorified death march that was used to settle land distputes" was the rare exception not the rule.

So I find it very interesting that you implore us to "crack open a history book" when to do so would only arm us to completely rebut your erroneous and sadly generalized viewpoint.

I did notice however, you said "history book" (as in the singular) and my suggestion is that you maybe crack open a few more history books (in the plural) to help increase your understanding of the ancient game.

[shiftylax]

Shiftylax - so far I have read a number of "history" books, including those on lacrosse, cultural and ethnographic studies and such. "2 mile long fields" and "glorified death march that was used to settle land distputes" was the rare exception not the rule.

So I find it very interesting that you implore us to "crack open a history book" when to do so would only arm us to completely rebut your erroneous and sadly generalized viewpoint.

I did notice however, you said "history book" (as in the singular) and my suggestion is that you maybe crack open a few more history books (in the plural) to help increase your understanding of the ancient game.

#1: You're right, I was generalizing.
#2: I was being facetious.
#3: That means I was joking.
#4: I made such statements to draw attention away from the fact that EVERY SINGLE THREAD about box (that isn't in the box forum) turns into:

"Box is better than field"

"No field destroys box"

"You're just jealous of box because its better"

"Okay, then why don't any colleges play box then"

BLAH BLAH BLAH.

Honestly, I would have just closed this thread if it was in my designated forum, but it's not so I decided to lighten the mood with some ludicrous generalizations.

Plus I wanted to see how "glorified death march" would look in a sentence. and I was right - it looks awesome.

[spenny]

Plus I wanted to see how "glorified death march" would look in a sentence. and I was right - it looks awesome.

quoted because this is plain old FUNNY! :chuckle:

[#15Roadies]

Shiftylax - you got me - my apologies for misunderstanding your factitiousness. Some noobs might also misunderstand, so while we have a good chuckle, we can also inform.

As for field or box - gimme both!

[WHEELAX2]

nowadays, I'm taking it to the next level.. sofcross and mixed mens/womens lax..

[ninja man 111]

hey i wanted to clarify that the san fransico team will grab great crowds, considering that mainly the only sucsessfull lacrosse in california is from private schools in sf

[lax_guy666]

i think they should expand to canada i mean look how successful bringing the NLL to toronto was...they almost sell out the place everynight....if they brought the MLL to canada the stadium would be almost full every night to guarenteed

[PilotShinjiIkar]

Thanks for the history lesson, but.......

If you bothered to read my post and consider the context, it's pretty clear that I meant that the MLL was a *******ized version of field (Field lax being the "unfamiliar sport" I was referring to).

Since you couldn't even decipher my post, I guess you also didn't bother to read your history books well enough to learn that modern day field lax is only marginally closer to the Creator's Game than box is.

What's actually kind of funny is that nowadays box is the more popular form of lacrosse all through Iroquois country. The Natives spotted an obvious improvement, and jumped right in!

Lol improvement I dont think so, you guys have box simply because of weather conditions. Lacrosse is lacrosse and i'm sure if you guys had the oppertunity to play field you guys would do it. My friend went back to his home in Quebec and everyone at this lax store there was like wow you really play on the field? Like a actual grass field? It must be really really big. And my friend laughed because he thought it was hilarious. Now i'm not saying which it is better but box lax was not created with the intention of replacing lax but simply drawing people to the ice rinks during the summer by hockey promoters. And field is much much more popular world wide. And personally its much easier to play field lax everywhere else in the continent where it isn't so cold and ice rinks aren't that plenty. Theres football field everywhere and field lax is almost the same size so its makes much more sense to play field than box.

[OutBurst]

The MLL should not expand into Canada until there are 50,000 fans attending each and every game. Otherwise, it just isn't worth the money.

[BClax17]

Lol improvement I dont think so, you guys have box simply because of weather conditions. Lacrosse is lacrosse and i'm sure if you guys had the oppertunity to play field you guys would do it. My friend went back to his home in Quebec and everyone at this lax store there was like wow you really play on the field? Like a actual grass field? It must be really really big. And my friend laughed because he thought it was hilarious. Now i'm not saying which it is better but box lax was not created with the intention of replacing lax but simply drawing people to the ice rinks during the summer by hockey promoters. And field is much much more popular world wide. And personally its much easier to play field lax everywhere else in the continent where it isn't so cold and ice rinks aren't that plenty. Theres football field everywhere and field lax is almost the same size so its makes much more sense to play field than box.
We do have the oppertunity to play field lax. The weather has nothing to do with box lacrosse, believe it or not, northern USA has the same weather as southern Canada which is where most of the population lives. Another strange fact is that Canada and the USA are different countries there for we do different things. We play box, you play field.

[Led_Zeppelin]

I think PilotShinjiIkar is right. Canadians love box because it ties into hockey so closely (play one in winter, on in summer all in the same rink with practically the same equipment) and Americans play field because we play a lot of field sports that we can use for lacrosse (ala football), where as we don't have as many hockey rinks.

[PilotShinjiIkar]

We do have the oppertunity to play field lax. The weather has nothing to do with box lacrosse, believe it or not, northern USA has the same weather as southern Canada which is where most of the population lives. Another strange fact is that Canada and the USA are different countries there for we do different things. We play box, you play field.

Well than, if this has nothing to do with weather than what does it have to do with? National pride? More specifically Canadian? But back to that person's statement that Box Lacrosse is an improvement lacrosse if that was true and weather isn't a factor in the popularity of Box in Canada than why doesn't Box spread like wild fire in America? Yes there is the NLL but kids dont exactly go run in droves to play Box. And why is Box only popular in Canada and the Czech Republic internationally speaking and really no where else?

[philly_bloont]

My bad making that initial reply post.... didn't know that this kind of thing blows up regularly.


The future of pro lacrosse in both America and Canada depends greatly on the success of the two leagues: if the MLL stays afloat, I'm sure they'll focus on the midwest and south before turning their attention to Canada, but there's no reason why they wouldn't expand into at least a couple canadian markets.

However, if the NLL actually follows through with their dual season plan and succedes, then Canada will obviously already have a few teams set up.

Either way, I'd be extremely surprised if Canada ended up with no teams, as long as the MLL eventually nears the 20 team mark, which could take a long time.

[RockStar]

Lol improvement I dont think so, you guys have box simply because of weather conditions........

Just FYI - box is a summer sport, and it's plenty warm outside to play field. Box was invented as a way to use thawed hockey rinks during the summer, but it caught on and replaced field as the dominant form.

Whether it's an improvement or not has been debated to death elsewhere. I certainly like it better, no point really arguing about it we'll never solve a thing.

The MLL should not expand into Canada until there are 50,000 fans attending each and every game. Otherwise, it just isn't worth the money.

Geez, up until this coming season, the MLL was a schoolbus league where the top club typically draws 6,000 to 7,000 fans.

If a club could draw that many in a Canadian city, it would be well worth their while to expand.

Fact is, expansion won't happen anytime soon. I don't think an MLL club could draw anywhere near 6,000. It's a second-tier pro sport that's unfamiliar to most. In addition to being unfamiliar, it's complex and thus harder to learn than a lot of sports. Difficult sell at best.

[#15Roadies]

"...why doesn't Box spread like wild fire in America" Partially because there was and, to a certain degree, still is a well documented prejudice against it among the elites of American field lacrosse. If that prejudice did not exist chances are box would be far more popular in the States than it is today. On the flip side the same can be said that as box increased in popularity there existed a prejudice against field lacrosse in the Canadian box elites and {ahem} arena owners.

"Well than, if this has nothing to do with weather than what does it have to do with?"
"...you guys have box simply because of weather conditions." That has already been easily debunked. We were playing field lacrosse in worse weather conditions far longer than Americans have been and we still do. Nowadays our "weather conditions" in the prime field areas of Ontario are less severe than, say, Rochester on your average day. (nevermind Buffalo and the perpetual 3 feet of snow - LOL!) Using weather as a reason for the popularity of box lacrosse simply doesn't make sense because the prime box season is played during the optimum weather conditions for field.

Using any anecdotal lacrosse information based upon comments in Quebec is simply a low water mark at this point in time.

Availability of hockey rinks, esp in the US hockey hotbeds is more or less the same than as any place in Canada. Plus it takes far fewer rinks to stage box lacrosse than it does hockey because there are far less players and games to schedule. One or two rinks per town would do it and I am certain that practically every town in the NE USA has one or two rinks.

Definately a hockey correlation here in Canada, but if the US-loves-field-sports axiom were true, why isn't field hockey wildly popular in Minnesota or Boston? Or rugby?

So it all seems to come back to that prejudice. Fortunately those walls are starting to come down in both field & box sectors on both sides of the border and that is great for both sports IMHO and provides great opportunties for kids of all kinds and nationalities to play the greatest sport on earth. Once that prejudice is placed out on the fringe where it belongs, then we can start working towards bringing lacrosse into mainstream Canada where it belongs. Until that happens, any MLL expansion to Canada would be a sure way to lighten someone's pocket. Maybe in 10 or 20 years, but not any sooner.

In the meantime, get as many American kids playing box as possible - even if it is a 15 game season, get 'em playing. That is only going to improve both sports.

[OutBurst]

Geez, up until this coming season, the MLL was a schoolbus league where the top club typically draws 6,000 to 7,000 fans.

If a club could draw that many in a Canadian city, it would be well worth their while to expand.

Fact is, expansion won't happen anytime soon. I don't think an MLL club could draw anywhere near 6,000. It's a second-tier pro sport that's unfamiliar to most. In addition to being unfamiliar, it's complex and thus harder to learn than a lot of sports. Difficult sell at best.

Were you agreeing with me?

[RockStar]

Were you agreeing with me?
No.

You said expansion to Canada needs to wait until the MLL is drawing 50K per game.

I disagreed, saying that the MLL is a $1.98 league, and that if a Canadian team could draw 6K to 7K, that was enough to justify expansion.

[shoebag2000]

I think that its a bad idea, at least at the moment. They need to wait until the league catches on more, which may well happen within the next few years with the west coast expansion. I'm really looking forward to how things turn out for the outlaws, seeing as how the mammoth have one of the highest average attendence records in the NLL.

And to whoever said the thing about how they are gonna do well in SF, I disagree. Having a lot of prep schools playing lax is still just that, a lot of prep schools. The vast majority of schools are public. If it got big in public schools, then I think that would boost things a lot. I certainly noticed that there is a big difference in lax popularity in colorado compared to arizona, and I'd bet that it has something to do with it being very popular in public schools. There are a ton of teams in the state compared to arizona, and there are also just a ton more people who even know what lacrosse is.