Penalty enforcement quiz

[LaxRef]

I didn't think this one was too hard, but maybe it's harder than I first thought:

In your rulings, be sure to indicate who serves penalty time for how long and also who gets possession. (2006 NCAA Rules)

(1) There is a loose ball. A1 slashes B1, then B1 commits a technical foul. Ruling?

(2) There is a loose ball. A1 slashes B1, then B1 slashes A1. Ruling?

(3) There is a loose ball. B1 pushes A1 from behind, then A1 turns and slashes B1. Ruling?

(4) A1 has possession. B1 slashes A1, then A1 wards. Ruling?

[pboyd]

(1) A1 serves 1-min. B gets possession.
(2) A1 and B1 serve 1-min - both NR - B gets possession.
(3) B1 serves 30-sec - A1 serves 1-min, first 30-sec NR and B gets possession
(4) B1 serves 1-min and A gets possession.

[Dose]

tough quiz, but i always thought the first person to commit a foul serves it, unless the second foul is an act of retaliation

[laxfan25]

(1) A1 serves 1-min. B gets possession.
(2) A1 and B1 serve 1-min - both NR - B gets possession.
(3) B1 serves 30-sec - A1 serves 1-min, first 30-sec NR and B gets possession
(4) B1 serves 1-min and A gets possession.
Agree except for #2. Since it was a loose ball with simultaneous fouls of equal length I think it is awarded by A.P.

[LaxRef]

Don't forget to mention where the ball gets put into play!

[EdT]

Hmmm, I have a different take on some of these (maybe I'll just show my ignorance :thinking:) :

1) The slash by A1 kills the play during a loose ball, so the foul by B1 is a dead ball foul. (Better make sure that the technical foul makes sense as a dead ball foul. A push does, but a crease violation doesn't.) Not simultaneous fouls, we have a sequence. A1 serves 1 minute, B1 30 seconds, the first 30 seconds NR. A get possession.

2) Again, slash by A1 kills the play during a loose ball, so not simultaneous fouls. A1, B1 serve 1 minute NR, A gets possession.

3) Ouch! You have play-on which will award A possession, then it goes on so long that A1 slashes. You now have simultaneous fouls, A1 serves 1 minute, B1 30 seconds. B get possession due to less penalty time.

4) Flag down ends on A1 wards. B1 serves 1 minute. A gets possession.

[LaxRef]

EdT has done some good work, but needs to look over (1), which has one error in it.

Also, no one has taken a stab at where the ball restarts in each case.

[pboyd]

Each scenario can be construed as simultaneous fouls recognizing that not all the actions (e.g., Flag Down or Play On", or when whistle is blown are included). I acknowledge the AP for secnario (2) as pointed out by my esteemed colleague LaxFan25 plus it was early in the morning and I wasn't as alert as I would normally be after working 10 hrs; driving through rush hour traffic; officiating a JV blowout and working a varsity contest.
LaxRef: You didn't ask for where the ball starts but I would ask you where was the ball when the whistle blew so we don't have to do too much work?

[LaxRef]

LaxRef: You didn't ask for where the ball starts but I would ask you where was the ball when the whistle blew so we don't have to do too much work?

Whoops, I meant to ask that. Actually, I intentionally didn't mention where the ball is; in at least one case, it doesn't matter!

[pboyd]

Resume play IAW 7-3 options:
(a) If in offensive end - restart where ball was when whistle blew or laterally outside goal area
(b) If in defensive end - free clear
Scenarios:
(1) Resume play IAW (a) or (b) depending on location when play was suspended
(2) Resume play IAW (a)
(3) Resume play IAW (b)
(4) Resume play IAW (a) or (b) depending on location when play was suspended

Good drill for Rule 7 session training this weekend.

[LaxRef]

The answers:

(1) There is a loose ball. A1 slashes B1, then B1 commits a technical foul. Ruling?

This one depends. There's a flag and an immediate whistle for the loose-ball personal foul. If the technical by B1 is one of the ones we don't call during dead balls, like a hold or ward, then ignore it and put A1 in the box for 1:00 and give the ball to team B at the spot of the foul, outside the box, or--if the foul was in the defensive end--just over midfield.

However, if it's a technical that you enforce during a dead ball (e.g., conduct foul, delay of game), then B1's foul awards possession to A1, with the spot of the ball the same as it would have been in the previous case.

(2) There is a loose ball. A1 slashes B1, then B1 slashes A1. Ruling?

These are not simultaneous fouls. The slash by A1 results in a flag and a whistle since it happened during a loose ball. The slash by B1 occurs during a dead ball--even if you haven't had time to blow the whistle yet--so you have A1 in the box for 1:00 NR, B1 in the box for 1:00 NR (the penalties are NR because of 7-2-d). Team A gets the ball because of the dead-ball foul by B1. Team A gets the ball at midfield because the ball would have been put in play in B's offensive end after the first slash, so the slash by A1 is a free clear.

(3) There is a loose ball. B1 pushes A1 from behind, then A1 turns and slashes B1. Ruling?

As LF25 pointed out, these are simultaneous fouls. B1 serves 30 seconds NR and A1 serves 1:00 (with the first 30 seconds NR). The ball is put into play at the spot or outside the box.

(4) A1 has possession. B1 slashes A1, then A1 wards. Ruling?

Here, there's a flag-down for the slash by B1, then the technical foul by A1 ends the flag-down. Team A gets the ball in their offensive end, outside the box (free clear if necessary). B1 serves 1:00.

[eme]

LaxRef wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaxRef


(2) There is a loose ball. A1 slashes B1, then B1 slashes A1. Ruling?



These are not simultaneous fouls. The slash by A1 results in a flag and a whistle since it happened during a loose ball. The slash by B1 occurs during a dead ball--even if you haven't had time to blow the whistle yet--

I am wondering about the last sentence above. Is there an AR on this topic? Are you saying it is impossible to have simultaneous personal fouls during a loose ball?

[EdT]

Are you saying it is impossible to have simultaneous personal fouls during a loose ball?

Well, here's one situation where you can. NCAA rules. Flag down due to B1 slash, A brings the ball into attack area and ball becomes loose. While ball is loose, A1 slashes ending the flag down. Simultaneous personal fouls which ended during a loose ball. A bit contrived, but with the rule changes more likely to happen this year.

[cnylax]

What about loose ball with 2 usc fouls for fighting

[LaxRef]

What about loose ball with 2 usc fouls for fighting

If they occur simultaneously (as best you can tell) in an everyday sense of the word, call them simultaneous. However, if there's someone who started it, then a retaliation, I wouldn't call them simultaneous. To me, one is live ball, one is dead ball, so the team that started it actually gets the ball. However, no one will fault you if you call it simul and award by A.P.

In any case, fouls are 3:00 NR ejection fouls.

[LaxRef]

Well, here's one situation where you can. NCAA rules. Flag down due to B1 slash, A brings the ball into attack area and ball becomes loose. While ball is loose, A1 slashes ending the flag down. Simultaneous personal fouls which ended during a loose ball. A bit contrived, but with the rule changes more likely to happen this year.

I'd argue these are not simul fouls during a loose ball, since only the second one occurs during a loose ball.

[eme]

Remember, a loose ball personal foul is NOT a slow whistle situation. Ball is loose. A1 slashes B1. Flag Down and whistle it dead.

What I am questioning is Laxref"s assertion: Loose ball. Slash by A1 against B1. Flag down and whistle is going to mouth as B1 slashes A1 before the whistle sounds.

I would say these are simultaneous personal fouls. NOT a live ball foul followed by a dead ball foul.

But I need help backing myself up in the ncaa rulebook. I am still looking. The best I can do is the first sentence of the Simultaneous fouls section page 80:
" Simultaneous fouls are fouls called on players of opposing teams during a live ball or a dead ball when sequence cannot be determined."

I would say the whistle hasn't sounded yet...it is still a live ball situation above.

[laxfan25]

The only problem with that is that we have already made the determination that if something occurs (such as a goal being scored) after we recognize an issue but before we can blow the whistle - that the play is considered dead.
So while your assertion makes me look a little better on my previous answer, it would seem to contravene our understanding of when the dead ball starts, no?

[shrekjr]

I have to agree with laxfan25. The situations where the ball becomes dead without a whistle are too numerous...goal, out of bounds, failure to advance, out of box after "keep it in" warning, etc. The only time a whistle kills the play is an inadvertant whistle. Otherwise, the play kills itself. At least it makes more sense to me that way.

[eme]

I dunno, guys. Hard to go against the clear black and white of the first sentence in simultaneous foul section.

Loose ball. A1 slashes B1 and before you even get to throw the flag, much less blow the whistle...you have B1 immediately turning a beat later and whacking A1. I would have a very hard time selling that as a dead ball foul by B1.

[tjslax]

I think of this almost like me trying to get my whistle blown during a shot. A1 takes a shot while I am trying to blow the play dead. While the ball is in flight I finally get the whistle blown and the ball sails out of bounds, all the way to the school wall. Now since I am considering the play dead prior to the shot (that's when I was trying to end the play for IP), I'm not going to hold A1 responsible for delay of game (throwing the ball 100 yards away after play ended). He thought play was continuing. Same thing in the slash situation, if the player doesn't hear the whistle, he assumes play continues and his actions should be considered to have occured during play if the whistle hadn't sounded yet.

[LaxRef]

I think of this almost like me trying to get my whistle blown during a shot. A1 takes a shot while I am trying to blow the play dead. While the ball is in flight I finally get the whistle blown and the ball sails out of bounds, all the way to the school wall. Now since I am considering the play dead prior to the shot (that's when I was trying to end the play for IP), I'm not going to hold A1 responsible for delay of game (throwing the ball 100 yards away after play ended). He thought play was continuing. Same thing in the slash situation, if the player doesn't hear the whistle, he assumes play continues and his actions should be considered to have occured during play if the whistle hadn't sounded yet.

So, wait, if you're trying to blow the play dead during a shot, you conisder the play to be dead already, but if you're trying to blow the play dead after a slash, you consider the play live? Or did you forget to put a "not" somewhere?

[tjslax]

What I'm saying is: if I haven't blown the whistle yet, I'm going to assume the players thought their actions occured during play and penalize them as such. Players are told to play until the whistle and we can't expect them to know to stop play because we are in the process of trying to blow the whistle.

[LaxRef]

What I'm saying is: if I haven't blown the whistle yet, I'm going to assume the players thought their actions occured during play and penalize them as such. Players are told to play until the whistle and we can't expect them to know to stop play because we are in the process of trying to blow the whistle.

So, if you're about to blow the whistle for a timeout by team A, and A1 steps in the crease before you can blow it, you're going to take the ball away from team A because A1 thought the play was still live?

What if you're about to blow the whistle and A1 shoots the ball into the goal before you can do it? He thought the play was live, so how can you take the goal away?

I'm not sure you've thought this position completely through.

[tjslax]

Actually I have thought this through. I would most certainly recognize the timeout situation you described and am in full agreement with you there. And I would most certainly take away the goal that went in when I was trying to blow the whistle.

I don't know how you can expect the players to behave like the ball is dead when you haven't blown the whistle. I would expect them to continue playing until I blow the whistle and will penalize them accordingly.

Your position confuses me. In the case I cited earlier, A shot is about to be taken by A1. Illegal screen is set by A2. My whistle has broken, while I am getting my handy second whistle out, a shot is taken and it goes wide of the goal. Your interpretation, it would sound to me, would be the play was over A1 however did not place the ball directly on the ground or hand it to an official so he will be sitting for 30 sec-delay of game.

I don't mean my "argument" to sound like an attack-I have the utmost respect for you. In actuality there are times when this should be treated as up to the officials descretion, but an AR on this may be helpful.

[LaxRef]

Your position confuses me. In the case I cited earlier, A shot is about to be taken by A1. Illegal screen is set by A2. My whistle has broken, while I am getting my handy second whistle out, a shot is taken and it goes wide of the goal. Your interpretation, it would sound to me, would be the play was over A1 however did not place the ball directly on the ground or hand it to an official so he will be sitting for 30 sec-delay of game.

I don't think I've ever implied that I thought anyone should be penalized in this situation. But there's a difference between not penalizing someone for an action that they believed was legitimate because they didn't know the play had been killed (since the whistle hadn't been blown yet)--I agree with this completely and even think they should get a fraction of a second leeway after the whistle blows since it takes a second to process the whistle and stop what you're doing--and penalizing someone for an action that would have been illegitimate if the ball had been live when they might have believed that the ball was still live when it wasn't.

Yikes! That was a mouthful. Here's what I mean:

If I were, say, about to stop play for an out of bounds by A1--preparing to give the ball to team B--but then team B held or interfered or something else before I managed to blow my whistle, I'm not giving the ball back to team A because of the foul by B, even though team B had every reason to believe that they were, in fact, committing a live-ball foul.

Of course, personal fouls will always be enforced whenever they occur, but technicals may not be if they occur during a dead ball.

This all started with the discussion of simultaneous fouls: A1 slashes B1 during a loose ball (so the play should be killed) and B1 turns and slashes A1 while you're trying to blow the play dead. In practice, it probably doesn't make a lot of difference whether you call B1's foul live-ball or dead-ball, but I believe that it should technically be called a dead-ball foul, with the ball being awarded to team A instead of by A.P. (since if the foul is dead ball we don't have simul fouls, although by 7-2-d the penalties will still be NR). I don't technically think it is right to say, "Well, B1 thought it was a live ball foul because the whistle hadn't blown yet, so we should treat it like it was live-ball and use the simul. foul rule." In fact, to do so gives a slight reward for being the one who retaliates, since you might get your retaliatory slash in and then still get the ball for your team.

I hope this clears up my position. If not, let me know!