More on the new flag down

[LaxRef]

Last night I had my first game with the new rules last night, and I don't think I did too badly with the new flag down rule. I palmed my whistle when there was a flag down and didn't blow it dead too early. That is, unless the rules don't mean what they say:

If a defending player commits a foul against an attacking player and an attacking player has possession of the ball, and if the act of fouling does not cause the player in possession of the ball to lose possession, the official must drop a signal flag, make the verbal signal “flag down” and withhold his whistle until:

Twice I had a situation where player A1 had possession in the box, was fouled, and the act of fouling caused him to lose the ball, so I blew the play dead. Players were telling me I should have let play continue.

So, does the rule mean what it says, or not?

[laxfan25]

I think the players were correct - once the attack has the ball in the box on a flag down, play continues until the ball leaves the box or goes OOB, the D gains possession or the attack commits a foul, even if the attack has the ball and loses it.
At least that's my understanding!

[eme]

if he was fouled and then lost possession outside the box...flag down followed by immediate whistle

If fouled inside the box and loses possession...palm your whistle until GOODIE occurs.

So...looks like a little re-write is in order.

[Laxref_36]

I would agree with eme. That play continues until: 1. Ball comes out of the box, 2. Goal is scored, 3. Fouling team gains possession, 4. Fouled team commits a violation or foul, 5. Injury occurs which the official deems it necessary to stop play, 6. any whistle that stops the play.

A re-write is in order again.

[NCLAXREF]

OK another question....no flag down, ball loose in the attack box. B slashes A...is the new rule in force or is it a flag down or whistle right away....

Sorry if this is a repeat..

[LaxRef]

OK another question....no flag down, ball loose in the attack box. B slashes A...is the new rule in force or is it a flag down or whistle right away....

I believe it is an immediate whistle since it was a loose-ball personal foul, but given the wording of the rule and what they actually meant, your guess is as good as mine.

[shrekjr]

If fouled inside the box and loses possession...palm your whistle until GOODIE occurs.

So...looks like a little re-write is in order.
Sorry I missed this original post before posting my question. I agree with eme based on the logic that the intent of the rule is to increase offense. By killing the play because the foul causes the ball to come loose, you are NOT increasing offense!

However, Mr. Duggan this weekend, while not convinced he was right or wrong, was certain that he was going to use the interpretation that the play should be blown dead immediately until told otherwise. I can't remember his logic, but I didn't agree with it, particularly when using the logic of advantage/disadvantage. In this case, the fouling team gains the advantage by the play being blown dead! I still disagree with this way of thinking.

I think eme is correct, we need a re-write. And a clarifying memo in the meantime would be nice!!!

[laxfan25]

I believe it is an immediate whistle since it was a loose-ball personal foul, but given the wording of the rule and what they actually meant, your guess is as good as mine.
I agree that we need some quick A.R.'s on these points. My first inclination when I heard this scenario (loos-ball in box, personal foul) was that it should be a FDSW until GOODIE, based on my internal assumption of what they are trying to accomplish with the new rule. (As they said in Philly - the rule book may say something, but WE all know what they meant to say :naughty: )

[PHSLaxDude]

i've had this applied already many times. If the offensemen is fouled and drops the ball, the whistle is only blown once the ball leaves the box or the defense takes possession.

[shrekjr]

*** UPDATE ***

An email we just received from our district's Chief Referee, via an email he sent to, and received from, Walt Munze...

"I would say,let the play continue. walt m".

[LaxRef]

*** UPDATE ***

An email we just received from our district's Chief Referee, via an email he sent to, and received from, Walt Munze...

"I would say,let the play continue. walt m".

When? :WTF:

When the guy is fouled and he drops the ball in the attack area? Or when the ball is loose and there's a personal foul in the attack area?

[shrekjr]

When? :WTF:

When the guy is fouled and he drops the ball in the attack area? Or when the ball is loose and there's a personal foul in the attack area?
The question presented to him was when the player is in possession and is fouled in the box and then immediately loses possession.

Did not ask about a loose ball foul in the box.

[LaxRef]

The question presented to him was when the player is in possession and is fouled in the box and then immediately loses possession.

Did not ask about a loose ball foul in the box.

Whew! Because if they were saying that about a loose ball, they'd definitely need to make that clear. I think they still need a bulletin explaining that the wording in the rulebook is wrong, though.

[shrekjr]

I believe it is an immediate whistle since it was a loose-ball personal foul, but given the wording of the rule and what they actually meant, your guess is as good as mine.
If you had a loose ball technical foul in the box, you'd have a slow whistle to give A an opportunity to gain possession. Using the same logic with the new rule, why wouldn't that apply to a personal foul in the box as well?

[LaxRef]

If you had a loose ball technical foul in the box, you'd have a slow whistle to give A an opportunity to gain possession. Using the same logic with the new rule, why wouldn't that apply to a personal foul in the box as well?

Because a loose-ball personal foul has always been an immediate whistle?

Or are you saying "When there is a flag down and then a loose-ball personal in the box, allow play to continue until you have a GOODIE"? I guess I could see that, although that's one more thing that will make me need to re-wire my brain if that's what they really want (and I'm guessing it is, but—as you know—I hate guessing).

But for a loose-ball personal in the box with no flag down, I think you still have to have an immediate whistle, and I think the wording in 7-8 supports that. If we can trust the words that are printed there. :chuckle:

[shrekjr]

But for a loose-ball personal in the box with no flag down, I think you still have to have an immediate whistle, and I think the wording in 7-8 supports that. If we can trust the words that are printed there. :chuckle:I agree that is the way it has always been, I just don't understand the logic of giving A the opportunity to gain possession and continue play during a technical foul but not a personal foul, especially with the new rule. Then again, I should have learned a long time ago not to try and question the logic of a rules committee of any sport!

[laxfan25]

If you had a loose ball technical foul in the box, you'd have a slow whistle to give A an opportunity to gain possession. Using the same logic with the new rule, why wouldn't that apply to a personal foul in the box as well?
If you had a loose ball technical in the box, you'd have a play-on, not a slow whistle (assuming that this isn't occurring on an FDSW). so the commutative logic doesn't hold (although I agree that if and when this gets clarified, it will likely be that a loose-ball personal in the attack box will bring a flag, with the whistle held until GOODIE - that's my opinion).

[shrekjr]

If you had a loose ball technical in the box, you'd have a play-on, not a slow whistle That's what I meant. Hey, I think like the rule book is written...you're supposed to know what I mean!!! :chuckle:

[popasmurf]

Whew! Because if they were saying that about a loose ball, they'd definitely need to make that clear. I think they still need a bulletin explaining that the wording in the rulebook is wrong, though.

Sorry for bringing up an older thread, but I am very confused by this.

1) I still do not understand if the ball is loose in the attack area and a personal foul flag down occurs. Is the whistle blown immediately?
2) Same situation not in the attack area...is the call different?
3) Outside the attack area, player with possession is fouled (personal) and drops the ball. Immediate whistle?
4) It seems like you guys are saying that the same situation as (3) in the attack area, it is slow whistle. Is that correct?

Please help me with these questions. I have searched but am now even MORE confused.

[blindbill]

Don't be concerned about bringing up an old thread. This is exactly why they're kept around, so people can learn! BTW welcome to the officials Forum.

My understanding: 1) Yes 2) No 3) Yes 4) Yes

[LaxRef]

Sorry for bringing up an older thread, but I am very confused by this.

We don't care so much if you bring up an older thread here. You were at least nice enough to search before you asked!

Keep in mind this rule is for NCAA only and not NFHS.

1) I still do not understand if the ball is loose in the attack area and a personal foul flag down occurs. Is the whistle blown immediately?

Your question is not entirely clear, so I'll address the possible cases:

Loose ball in team A's attack area with no flag down, and B1 commits a personal foul: immmediate whistle and assess the penalty (this is not a flag-down situation even though the flag is thrown because play does not continue).

Loose ball in team A's attack area while there is already a flag down for another foul by team B, and B1 commits a personal foul: not entirely clear by the current rules or by the COC bulletins. My inclination would be to kill the play if there are loose-ball personal fouls occurring just for safety's sake. In addition, normally we stop play for a loose-ball personal, and the rule doesn't tell us to not do it here, so that implies we should go with the immediate whistle. Anyone else have thoughts here?

2) Same situation not in the attack area...is the call different?

Loose ball personal outside the attack area: immediate whistle.

3) Outside the attack area, player with possession is fouled (personal) and drops the ball. Immediate whistle?

Yes. Outside the attack area, the old rule about the ball touching the ground applies.

4) It seems like you guys are saying that the same situation as (3) in the attack area, it is slow whistle. Is that correct?

Yes. For a personal inside the attack area, play continues if the foul causes the player to drop the ball, but NOT if the ball is already loose when the foul occurs.

[popasmurf]

Thanks to both of you. I guess that makes sense.

This next question I'll try to be more specific. NCAA rules
(1) B1 has possession in his defensive area and is fouled (either technical or personal). He runs down the field and drops the ball or passes to B2 and B2 drops the ball before he gets to his attack area. Is the whistle blown?
(2) Same scenario but the ball is dropped after B1 (or B2) enters his attack area?

Thanks

[LaxRef]

Thanks to both of you. I guess that makes sense.

This next question I'll try to be more specific. NCAA rules
(1) B1 has possession in his defensive area and is fouled (either technical or personal). He runs down the field and drops the ball or passes to B2 and B2 drops the ball before he gets to his attack area. Is the whistle blown?

Yes.

(2) Same scenario but the ball is dropped after B1 (or B2) enters his attack area?

Play continues until we have one of the conditions for ending the flag down (GOODIE: Goal, Offense fouls, Out of box or OOB, Defense gains possession, Injury, Equipment issue or expiration oof game clock). Hmmm. Based on that mnemonic, you'd think you would let play continue on a loose-ball personal. I will try to get this cleared up for next year's rulebook.

[popasmurf]

This question is not meant to be inflamatory. I really don't understand what is the logic behind calling "play on" on a loose ball technical committed by the defending team in the attack area (possibly allowing the offense to pick up a loose ball and score) and having a loose ball personal foul committed by the defending team (like a slash during a loose ball) being immediately whistled dead thus not giving the offense a chance at a scoring opportunity?

[GILax18]

So basically. If i'm attacking, and a defender fouls me so that I lose possession, a flag is thrown, but no wistle until the defending team gets the ball, the ball leaves the box, or any other reason for a whistle?

I like that, its more like hockey. on a delayed penalty, play continues until the fouling team gains possession.
Now we just need to add an extra attacker for pulled goalie =]

[spenny]

what does the acronym GOODIE stand for?

[ColtsLax]

what does the acronym GOODIE stand for?
GOODIE: Goal, Offense fouls, Out of box or OOB, Defense gains possession, Injury, Equipment issue or expiration oof game clock

Also for clarification, when we say "possesion" we do not mean individual possesion, we mean team possesion. If you have the ball in your stick, and drop it, you may not personally be inpossesion, but your respective team is considered to have possesion. The opposing team would have to pick the ball up for you to lose possesion

[LaxRef]

Also for clarification, when we say "possesion" we do not mean individual possesion, we mean team possesion. If you have the ball in your stick, and drop it, you may not personally be inpossesion, but your respective team is considered to have possesion. The opposing team would have to pick the ball up for you to lose possesion

That is incorrect. A ball is in player possession if the player can cradle, pass, or shoot. A ball that is not in player possession is a loose ball. A ball in flight is in team possession if caught by the same team (sometimes; this rule has changed recently).

[ColtsLax]

That is incorrect. A ball is in player possession if the player can cradle, pass, or shoot. A ball that is not in player possession is a loose ball. A ball in flight is in team possession if caught by the same team (sometimes; this rule has changed recently).
yeah, but if the ball is down in th box, you dno't blow the whistle, because the attacking team did not lose possesion. Or did they lose possesion, but the defedning team just not gain possesion? Hmmm

[LaxRef]

yeah, but if the ball is down in th box, you dno't blow the whistle, because the attacking team did not lose possesion. Or did they lose possesion, but the defedning team just not gain possesion? Hmmm

The NCAA rule used to be to blow the whistle if the attacking team lost possession. Now it is that, once the ball is in the box, we blow the whistle if the defense gains possession. There is a world of difference there.