Play Situation Today

[eme]

I am the official for the FO. FO ensues. Ball is loose. I see A1 being pushed from behind by B1. "Play-on"...then whistle. Award to A1.

B Coach says, "But B1 had the ball in his stick when he pushed A1."
I replied that It may have been, but I didn't see it...and he's raised a question that I am going to take the rest of this game to figure out...
I never had a view of the ball...I thought it had gone astray somewhere. B1 did not "ward" with his arm nor was the "push" violent...but he did nudge him from behind to make him stumble.

So here's my query. Let's say B1 did have the ball. Was he guiltless in this situation?

[LaxRef]

It's certainly an illegal push, since it was not a push directed at the person in possession nor was it within 5 yards of a loose ball.

[Snake~eyes]

I agree, interesting though. Its hard to push off with the ball, if its the free hand that's an obvious call but it must be very hard to push with two hands on the stick and maintain posession of the ball throughout the push.

[Laxref_36]

I would agree that it is a push. However, ask yourself about the advantage vs disadvantage aspect of the play. It should help answer your question. If you never saw that B had possession, and you thought the ball was loose, you need to make that call.

[WHEELAX2]

wouldn't it kinda be in the realm of a warding violation..

[laxfan25]

I think your comment that "he did nudge him from behind to make him stumble" is sufficent to judge that he gained an advantage, and your call was correct to take the ball away. The fact that he had possession was immaterial at that point. Whether the call was a push or a ward also is inconsequential - the result is the same.

[goalieskcickay]

Someone did something similar in an indoor game I was watching. He had possesion and about two feet on his defender. His team was losing, and he quite violently smashed against the defender, shoulder on chest, helmet on helmet. Is this legal?

[LaxRef]

Someone did something similar in an indoor game I was watching. He had possesion and about two feet on his defender. His team was losing, and he quite violently smashed against the defender, shoulder on chest, helmet on helmet. Is this legal?

A helmet-to-helmet or helmet-to-body contact is spearing: 1:00-3:00 NR penalty. So no, it's not legal.

What is less obvious is whether, if there's no helmet contact, is it legal. See:

http://www.lacrosseforums.com/showthread.php?t=4884

http://www.lacrosseforums.com/showthread.php?t=11655

http://www.lacrosseforums.com/showthread.php?t=11660

http://www.lacrosseforums.com/showthread.php?t=29234

[goalieskcickay]

Thanks, it wasn't like he used the top of his helmet as much as the side/facemask, to rattle the defender.

[LaxRef]

Thanks, it wasn't like he used the top of his helmet as much as the side/facemask, to rattle the defender.

Doesn't matter. If you initiate contact with the head, it's spearing. Of course, I'd have to see it to know if I'd call it.

[hulllaxplayer]

If he just hit him from behing id say penelty. But if a1 turned away just as b1 was hitting him no penelty.

[LaxRef]

If he just hit him from behing id say penelty. But if a1 turned away just as b1 was hitting him no penelty.

That might be relevant if the player applying the hit didn't have possession.

[eme]

I am in a bit of disbelief with your answers here. When, in the 150 years of lacrosse being governed by rules, has anyone been called for pushing while in possession of the ball?

I know what the rules say. For 150 years the game has said something verrrryyy different.

[LaxRef]

I am in a bit of disbelief with your answers here. When, in the 150 years of lacrosse being governed by rules, has anyone been called for pushing while in possession of the ball?

I know what the rules say. For 150 years the game has said something verrrryyy different.

This shouldn't happen. The rules shouldn't say things they don't mean.

I've certainly called the team in possession for a push away from the ball, but never the ball carrier. In most cases, I think the ward rule covers a push by the player in possession

We've talked about this before: according to the rules, the bull dodge is a ward. The only argument I've heard against calling this that makes sense is that the defense is usually trying to hit the ball carrier, so he needs to be able to "hit back" to defend himself and avoid getting knocked over. However, if there was a guy just standing there and the ball carried took him out, I would call a foul (either a ward or an IBC). I've never seen this happen in a field game but saw it once in a youth league game when I was first officiating (the coach wanted a "charge" call, and I probably should have called something here especially since the league was a no-contact league).

But, back to your question, how would you call this if you saw it:

A1 catches the ball in front of the goal, and defender B1 is in front of him,with his back to A1. A1 pushes B1 from behind, then shoots and scores.

How can that not be a push? I mean, you could call it a ward, but it's really a push.

[laxfan25]

I am in a bit of disbelief with your answers here. When, in the 150 years of lacrosse being governed by rules, has anyone been called for pushing while in possession of the ball?

I know what the rules say. For 150 years the game has said something verrrryyy different.
I will say it's a rare occurence, usually the defender is facing the guy with the ball, but in the case you cite, if you felt it warranted a push call with the ball being loose, it would seem that the same call would be merited even if he had just scooped it up. The defender was disadvantaged by the push, since the pusher got away scot free. However, if it makes you feel better - you blew the call! The guy pushing in the back had possession! (Still doesn't seem right though).

[cnylax]

If A1 had both hands on his stick he can't be called for a ward so it would have to be a push?

[LaxRef]

If A1 had both hands on his stick he can't be called for a ward so it would have to be a push?

There is actually no rule that says if A1 has both hands on the stick then he can't be called for a push. I actually submitted this to the NCAA rules committee, and they declined to include it.