Butt end width? I caught one in the face today

[mcourtne]

I played a masters (33 and older) indoor exhibition game at the dedication of a space for the Pennsylvania Lacrosse hall of fame today. The rules were “modified” box lacrosse rules. (?? I don’t know)

Towards the end of the first half, I got a butt end in the face. The stick end went through my mask and caught me under my eye. I was kind of nervous for a few minutes because there was a lot of blood and I couldn’t open my eye for about a minute. I heard someone say “oohh he’s cut”. I washed away the blood and found that my eye was ok and the blood was mostly from my nose and not from the cut under my eye. I had a doctor look at it (an ER doctor doing his residency lives next door to me) and he doesn’t think anything is broken. I’m going to get away with nothing worse than a black eye and a sore nose. The guy who did it came up to me at half time to apologize and he showed me his stick and said “look, its ok, the ref looked at it and said it’s ok” and I politely replied “No, it’s not ok. Put a butt end on that”. He may have been irritated that I didn’t accept his apology. His stick had about a 1/4 inch wide strip of tape rapped around the out side of the end many times to make a 1/8 inch thick band on the end with nothing over the hole in the end. His stick end fit easily through my helmet’s mask.

I searched the forum and got some answers regarding the butt end of a stick. I confirmed that, as I thought, there can be no hole in the end. But, it seems there is no required diameter for a butt end. I have a Brine rubber end that can fit through the mask (grill?) of my helmet (6 year old cascade) only if I force it with some wiggling. I have another stick with a STX end that fits through easily. Do you think there should be a rule dictating the width of the but end? I don’t think it would interfere with stick handling and it would prevent injury. How about outlawing home made butt ends altogether?

A funny thing happened after the game. (Funny/hard to believe :dummy: ). A player from the opposing team that I know came over to ask what happened. He was still wearing his helmet and I noticed that he had hack sawed off the bar that goes in front of his eyes. I asked, “You cut OFF the bar”? He smiled and said “I can see better”. I’m thinking to myself “maybe not for long”. He’s a high school ref. and plays recreationally in summer league, Sunday night pick up box games and grandmasters tournaments like the one at Lake Placid. Even at the recreational level I don’t think a ref will let him play in that if he sees it.

[Jacket 21]

Ow, glad you're OK through all that! I can see how you'd be upset about the whole incident.

It would seem to make sense to have a minimum diameter on the butt of a shaft... then again, how many times does one really get a direct hit to/through the facemask? Probably doesn't happen enough to be a issue for rulemakers.

Unless there are mandatory stick checks for everyone, people will play with illegal sticks, intentionally or mistakenly. And it is a contact sport... people will get injured. Try to make sure it's not you.

[RockStar]

Cruel irony - you're wearing the un-modded facemask, yet you suffer the facial injury. I play with many fools like the one you described. Everything from hockey helmets with no facemask, 1970's type T-bar or QB mask, 80's or 90's vintage lax mask some with serious mods, right on up to NOCSAE certified lacrosse helmet

I had one of these stick through mask incidents during a box laX game I reffed:

Scrum in a corner, one kid comes out with a cut under his eye (kid was wearing a 1" square ice hockey grille). Officials timeout, inspect every kid's stick, find the likely culprit (very thin layer of tape wrapped around the butt, hole not plugged). Kid gets 10 minute misconduct for illegal equipment, both coaches advised of why the penalty was assessed and ordered to check all of their kid's sticks, told that anything else illegal that we see gets 10 minutes.

Funny thing is, I can't find a rule in any form of lacrosse I'm familiar with that specs a minimum diameter for butt ends. The end holes have to be plugged, but that could be done with a single thin layer of tape and still be legal.

[WALaxRef]

There is a specific requirement the butt end of the shaft be capped with tape or the manufacturer's cap or wood ect. (Rule 1 regarding sticks NCAA and NFHS). A piece of tape would not be considered adequate. The offender would sit down for a minute and the stick must be repaired before being allowed back into the contest.

That being said, there is a maximum diameter for a but end as well. I do not recall the exact circumference but it is not much greater than the circumference of the shaft itself. The logic here is the leverage someone could achieve and have an unfair advantage.

So Like Jacket says, the rules do not account for that once in a lifetime injury since faceguards could prevent that as would many penalties that could have been called.

Hope all heals well

[LaxRef]

There is a specific requirement the butt end of the shaft be capped with tape or the manufacturer's cap or wood ect. (Rule 1 regarding sticks NCAA and NFHS). A piece of tape would not be considered adequate. The offender would sit down for a minute and the stick must be repaired before being allowed back into the contest.

This is not true. Not having an end cap is not a 1:00 penalty. The stick just has to leave until fixed, similar to not having a ball stop or having hanging strings that are too long. Even if it were an illegal crosse, it couldn't be 1:00, since you can only penalize a crosse 1:00 for a deep pocket or for not having the bottom of the mesh firmly attached.

That being said, there is a maximum diameter for a but end as well. I do not recall the exact circumference but it is not much greater than the circumference of the shaft itself. The logic here is the leverage someone could achieve and have an unfair advantage.

There is no maximum diameter specified in the rules for the butt end or plug.

[RockStar]

There is a specific requirement the butt end of the shaft be capped with tape or the manufacturer's cap or wood ect. (Rule 1 regarding sticks NCAA and NFHS). .....

How exactly do the NCAA and NFHS rules read? You have indicated that you can cover the hole with tape. If this is true.....how do you find a way to justify removing a stick from a game if there's a tape cover and no exposed metal?

Just curiosity.

Where I play and ref, I'm not bound by anything more strict than "cover the hole". I've personally found the best option is to cover the end with a bottlecap, crimp the cap onto the stick and then roll a thick tape knob around the whole butt, covering the cap with a couple layers. This is as safe as any other option and preferable to the rubber caps because the end of the shaft will never wear through.

[faceitoff]

Hahahaha... post picture of your face.

[mcourtne]

There is no maximum diameter specified in the rules for the butt end or plug.
So...does anyone think there should be? And, do you think it would be reasonable to disallow homemade butt ends. Being able to design and work with the mesh adds a lot to the game but…I don’t think the game would loss anything if all sticks had to have a rubber butt end on them.

By the way my eye and nose are fine, just sore. I had fun today making up different stories for why I have a black eye. People know I play lacrosse and they still believed that…I got in a scuffle over the last rasberry scone at Starbucks.

[skip0l]

i've had a d-pole where the buttend was old and soft, the end of the stick punched through it so there was still a buttend but there was a hole. i was letting someone use it. he hit me and the cap slid up the shaft the shaft came in grazing my cheek. cut it pretty good.

[mcourtne]

I would but I can't figure out how to do it. I'm old school. I learned to write script with a pencil. I'll give posting a photo another try.

[mcourtne]

I’m sorry for getting the butt end thing going again. I was just relating my close encounter with a butt end and wondering if anyone thought a rule change was appropriate.

There is a lot on the subject at these posts

http://www.lacrosseforums.com/showthread.php?t=19888

http://www.lacrosseforums.com/showthread.php?t=22111

http://www.lacrosseforums.com/showthread.php?t=32053

[geezer]

Some company --brine or stx? -- makes a butt end cap that extends down and has a flange (sort of like a small pistol grip kind of flaring out) to improve grip. is that legal?

[laxfan25]

Some company --brine or stx? -- makes a butt end cap that extends down and has a flange (sort of like a small pistol grip kind of flaring out) to improve grip. is that legal?
Yes, and a good butt end for protection.