goalie interference play-on

[blindbill]

I was challenged (can you believe that) on my "play-on off" call when the outlet pass from interefered with goalie was caught. I was told that the play-on should have continued, much like a FDSW. I'm of the opinion, much backed up by members of this forum, that play-ons should be as short as possible before it gets real messy.

BUT, on closer reading of both NCAA and NFHS rules, I am now a bit confused.

NCAA is very clear: "No penalty is called if the offended team maintains possession of the ball ie. outlet pass is caught...". However, NFHS says:
(7-10.2b) "In the case of a crease violation in which the goalkeeper has possession, play shall continue UNTIL the offended team is DISADVANTAGED".
(my caps)

This sounds more like FDSW!

Can someone explain?

[LaxRef]

In my experiences, if I am interfered with during a clear or after a save (rebound and I catch it but A1 hits my stick while I'm in the crease), once the ball crosses the midfield line, it play-on is cancelled out.

In one situation that I can remember, I was interfered with off of a rebound, passed the ball to a defenseman, he passed it to a defenseman on the other side of the field and he overshot it and it went out of bounds and we were awarded a free clear. It almost doesn't make sense to me because my attitude is if I'm interfered with and I can still manage to control the ball and complete a pass to a teammate, the play-on is off because I was able to collect myself from the interference and get rid of the ball as if I wasn't interfered with.

This is called TPOAD (The Principle of Advantage/Disadvantage): you obviously weren't disadvantaged, because you completed your outlet pass, so the play-on is over.

[LaxRef]

I was challenged (can you believe that) on my "play-on off" call when the outlet pass from interefered with goalie was caught. I was told that the play-on should have continued, much like a FDSW. I'm of the opinion, much backed up by members of this forum, that play-ons should be as short as possible before it gets real messy.

BUT, on closer reading of both NCAA and NFHS rules, I am now a bit confused.

NCAA is very clear: "No penalty is called if the offended team maintains possession of the ball ie. outlet pass is caught...". However, NFHS says:
(7-10.2b) "In the case of a crease violation in which the goalkeeper has possession, play shall continue UNTIL the offended team is DISADVANTAGED".
(my caps)

This sounds more like FDSW!

Can someone explain?

Look at NFHS situation 7-10-2, which still doesn't say exactly what it means. It says:

*7.10.2 SITUATION: Goalkeeper A's outlet pass bounces past midfield and the ground ball picked up by Attack A. Is the Play-on over when the ball contacts the ground? RULING: No. Advantage has not been lost. Play continues.

I think the way to interpret this is that the play on is not over when the ball hits the ground, but it is over when the player catches the ball off the bounce.

In the section you quoted, I'd say the proper interpretation is that the play continues unless the offended team is immediately disadvantaged. In other words, I'm going to do whatever it takes to call this the same way in NCAA and NFHS. :chuckle:

[laxfan25]

I agree, if the goalie completes his clearing pass, even if it doesn't clear the midfield - play on is over (and completing the pass could include bouncing it to the recipient). The impact of the interference has been overcome - no more disadvantage from it.

[3rdPersonPlural]

According to section 11 art. 2, if a keeper 'does not play on' we blow a whistle and award the ball at the center X.

What constitutes 'not playing on'??? If he gets a free clear, wouldn't the safe thing to do be stopping?

[laxfan25]

According to section 11 art. 2, if a keeper 'does not play on' we blow a whistle and award the ball at the center X.

What constitutes 'not playing on'??? If he gets a free clear, wouldn't the safe thing to do be stopping?
The goalie can simply drop the ball and get the free clear, he is under no obligation to even try a pass. All we're doing is not removing the opportunity to hit a breaking middie with a clearing pass to get a fast-break chance.

[3rdPersonPlural]

Thanks, LR

[eme]

Always think of play-ons in this way: the WORST thing that can happen to the disadvantaged team is that they get the ball at the spot/outside box and an immediate whistle. The BEST thing that can happen to them is that they get a fast break on the other team's defense.

10 secs. left in game. A ahead by one. A has to keep it in the box. Ah...but ball now rolls off of A's strick and comes out of the box. Your first reaction is to signal play-on...but that might not be the best thing that can happen to Team B. They don't want the time running down while they attempt to pick up the ball. They want the ball, time stopped, etc.

[LaxRef]

Always think of play-ons in this way: the WORST thing that can happen to the disadvantaged team is that they get the ball at the spot/outside box and an immediate whistle. The BEST thing that can happen to them is that they get a fast break on the other team's defense.

This is mostly right. The exception is if we get simultaneous fouls.

10 secs. left in game. A ahead by one. A has to keep it in the box. Ah...but ball now rolls off of A's strick and comes out of the box. Your first reaction is to signal play-on...but that might not be the best thing that can happen to Team B. They don't want the time running down while they attempt to pick up the ball. They want the ball, time stopped, etc.

This is where some of you guys have an edge on me. While I agree with what you're saying, I don't know that I'd be able to remember to treat this case differently in the heat of a game. Of course, the team down by 1 probably should have done something about it before it got down to 10 seconds left, so I wouldn't feel like I cost them the game or anything.

[3rdPersonPlural]

Thanks as well, EME. I was mostly wondering how a keeper signals their election to 'not' play on. Dropping the ball is the obvious signal, but perhaps a verbal indication or flicking the ball to a ref or a lively rendition of the macarena dance might be the appropriate signal.

Let's say the keeper remains in the crease for better than 4 seconds without passing or dropping or anything. Just stands there scanning the field. Do we:

A. consider his inaction to be a signal that he want the free clear and whistle the play dead at 3.5 seconds?

B. consider his inaction to be a signal that he want the free clear and whistle the play dead at 4 seconds?

C. Consider the play alive until the 4 seconds is expired and call a subsequent technical on the keeper while awarding his team the ball at midfield?

D. Consider the play alive until the 4 seconds is expired and call a subsequent technical on the keeper while awarding his team the ball atthe goal line?

I think B, but I'm often wrong........

[LaxRef]

I'd call it B. You end the play-on when the offended team commits a technical foul, then award the ball. This is no different than a loose-ball push by B1, followed by a loose-ball push from A1: the foul by the offended team stops the play-on and you award the ball (no free clear here, though).

[3rdPersonPlural]

I'd call it B. You end the play-on when the offended team commits a technical foul, then award the ball. This is no different than a loose-ball push by B1, followed by a loose-ball push from A1: the foul by the offended team stops the play-on and you award the ball (no free clear here, though).

To clarify, the crease violation scenario still has a free clear after a 4 second violation, but, of course, not the push/push scenario.

Right?

[laxfan25]

10 secs. left in game. A ahead by one. A has to keep it in the box. Ah...but ball now rolls off of A's strick and comes out of the box. Your first reaction is to signal play-on...but that might not be the best thing that can happen to Team B. They don't want the time running down while they attempt to pick up the ball. They want the ball, time stopped, etc.
Are you saying that the whistle should be blown as soon as the ball leaves the box when a team needs to keep it in? My understanding is that play continues, and you'd only whistle if the restricted team touches it first - that they could hang around the loose ball, and once the other team scoops it up, proceed to try to take it away. Have I been mistaken all these years?

A team in possession of the ball in their attack area will be warned to keep the ball in that area if:
(1) It is obvious they are keeping the ball from play, or
(2) They have the lead and the game is in the final two minutes of the
fourth quarter.
Exception: When the score is tied, neither team is forced to keep the ball in the goal area.
Once the team is warned, a stalling violation is called if the ball goes out
of the attack area in any manner and the offensive team touches the ball before the defensive team gains possession.

[LaxRef]

To clarify, the crease violation scenario still has a free clear after a 4 second violation, but, of course, not the push/push scenario.

Right?


You are correct!

[LaxRef]

Are you saying that the whistle should be blown as soon as the ball leaves the box when a team needs to keep it in? My understanding is that play continues, and you'd only whistle if the restricted team touches it first - that they could hang around the loose ball, and once the other team scoops it up, proceed to try to take it away. Have I been mistaken all these years?

A team in possession of the ball in their attack area will be warned to keep the ball in that area if:
(1) It is obvious they are keeping the ball from play, or
(2) They have the lead and the game is in the final two minutes of the
fourth quarter.
Exception: When the score is tied, neither team is forced to keep the ball in the goal area.
Once the team is warned, a stalling violation is called if the ball goes out
of the attack area in any manner and the offensive team touches the ball before the defensive team gains possession.

It is normally a play-on. However, eme is saying that if it happens with 10 seconds in the game it is actually a disadvantage to the offended team to let play continue (since time is running out0, so kill the play and let them have the ball.

This is not in the rules, but may be a reasonable thing to do.

[laxfan25]

This is not in the rules, but may be a reasonable thing to do.
I've never heard this called as a play on, and find no reference to it under play-on in the book. There is no violation unless the attacking team touches the ball first after it has left the box, until they do so, it's just a ball sitting on the ground that they can't touch. To whistle it dead and give to the other team just because it's late in the game seems to be taking great liberty with the rules. Am I missing something though? Again, I've never heard anyone say until now that this scenario is a play-on situation.

[LaxRef]

I've never heard this called as a play on, and find no reference to it under play-on in the book. There is no violation unless the attacking team touches the ball first after it has left the box, until they do so, it's just a ball sitting on the ground that they can't touch. To whistle it dead and give to the other team just because it's late in the game seems to be taking great liberty with the rules. Am I missing something though? Again, I've never heard anyone say until now that this scenario is a play-on situation.

Not at all true. See:

Once the team is warned, a stalling violation is called if the ball goes out of the attack area in any manner and the offensive team touches the ball before the defensive team gains possession.

Exception: If the ball leaves the attack area due to a shot or due to a deflected pass by the defense, either team may recover.

A.R. 45. Team A, which is ahead, throws ball into its attack area during the last two minutes of regulation and, before either team has possession in the attack area, the offensive team kicks the ball out of the attack area or the ball rolls out with no one touching it while it was in the attack area. Is this stalling? RULING: Yes.

A.R. 50. Team A is given the warning to “keep it in” the attack area. After doing so, Team A player with ball runs, passes, is checked or is forced out of goal area. RULING: Ball awarded to Team B at spot of infraction. If loose ball and Team B recovers ball, allow play to continue.

A.R. 55 A stalling warning is issued on Team A with the ball in the attack area, A1 throws an inadvertent pass out of the goal area. B1, in attempting to pick up the ball, hits it out of bounds. RULING: Ball awarded to Team B.

So, the violation is the ball leaving the attack area, not the offensive team touching it. The offensive team touching it merely ends the play-on for a loose-ball technical foul. The three A.R.s don't say "play on," yet in this context that's clearly what they're talking about. Especially note A.R. 55; if there was no foul on A for stalling (a play on), how can you award the ball to B when B1 bits it out of bounds?

[Shorelax]

this is like therapy....

excellent thread.

[LaxRef]

this is like therapy....


Maybe we need a poll on how many of us are in therapy after dealing with coaches, players, fans, etc. :chuckle:

[laxfan25]

Not at all true. See:



So, the violation is the ball leaving the attack area, not the offensive team touching it. The offensive team touching it merely ends the play-on for a loose-ball technical foul. The three A.R.s don't say "play on," yet in this context that's clearly what they're talking about. Especially note A.R. 55; if there was no foul on A for stalling (a play on), how can you award the ball to B when B1 bits it out of bounds?
Good points, as usual. I stand corrected. I'll be sure to add it to my training class next weekend!

[Woodenstick]

Going back to the original thread, and whether the NFHS rule differs from the NCAA.

NFHS says: (7-10.2b) "In the case of a crease violation in which the goalkeeper has possession, play shall continue until the offended team is disadvantaged".

While this is not the usual case, it would seem to me that even though the defense caught the outlet pass, they might be disadvantaged. For example, the Goalie's stick is hit, and the pass is now a high floater instead of on a line. If the D-man has to stop running but catches it and then loses it because the Attackman could catch up to him, there is a disadvantage. Therefore, in my opinion, even though the outlet pass is completed, there is still some judgment involved for NFHS. I don't know about NCAA, do you follow the letter of the rule ( a catch is a catch) or is there a "spirit of the rule -- look at advantage"?

I agree that normally catching the outlet pass should be enough to show no disadvantage for NFHS. But I think there is some judgment, especially at the lower levels like youth and modified.

[LaxRef]

Going back to the original thread, and whether the NFHS rule differs from the NCAA.

NFHS says: (7-10.2b) "In the case of a crease violation in which the goalkeeper has possession, play shall continue until the offended team is disadvantaged".

While this is not the usual case, it would seem to me that even though the defense caught the outlet pass, they might be disadvantaged. For example, the Goalie's stick is hit, and the pass is now a high floater instead of on a line. If the D-man has to stop running but catches it and then loses it because the Attackman could catch up to him, there is a disadvantage. Therefore, in my opinion, even though the outlet pass is completed, there is still some judgment involved for NFHS. I don't know about NCAA, do you follow the letter of the rule ( a catch is a catch) or is there a "spirit of the rule -- look at advantage"?

I agree that normally catching the outlet pass should be enough to show no disadvantage for NFHS. But I think there is some judgment, especially at the lower levels like youth and modified.

While in principle I think you're probably right, I think in practice if you try to split hairs like this it's just going to make you look bad. The outlet pass is thrown, it's completed, you blow the whistle and award a free clear. Now one coach is mad because you gave a free clear and the other is mad because he thinks he had a fast break going, and they both think you blew it. It also goes into their running tally of how many times you blew the whistle, which when it reaches a certain point they say you didn't let the game have any flow.

Me, I'm going to stick with my plan of trying not to interfere with the play unless I really need to. I'm really trying to let the minor stuff go this year, which is hard to do when there are so many minor rules violations.

[FitzGoalie]

this actually happened to me in a game today. i made the save, and the crease attackman hit my stick as i was picking up the ball in the crease, so the ref called play on. i made the outlet pass to one of my defenders and the ref called play on over. i thought it was a pretty fair call, but then again the infraction was pretty minor and clear had a good break. i think that ideally in this situation, if the goalie is aware of the situation and wants to take advantage of the foul, he should just drop the ball and let the other team pick it up, thereby initiating the penalty. wouldn't that be the simplest solution?

[pboyd]

"...the crease attackman hit my stick as i was picking up the ball in the crease, so the ref called play on." The loose ball play on situation you describe is over when you gain possession. If you didn't complete the outlet pass - there would have been no call since paly on was over. The opportunity for an outlet pass and/or free clear only pertains to a goalie interference when goalie has possession.
In training we emphasize "green grass/blue sky" to ensure that the disadvantaged team on a loose ball play on actually gets the opportunity to play after gaining possession. If a play on were called for a loose ball push and the disadvantaged team/player gained possession but his stick was immediately checked and he lost the ball before coming up and looking to run/pass - we would blow the whistle and award the ball back to the team that was originally disadvantaged.

[LaxRef]

i think that ideally in this situation, if the goalie is aware of the situation and wants to take advantage of the foul, he should just drop the ball and let the other team pick it up, thereby initiating the penalty. wouldn't that be the simplest solution?

Bad idea. What if the play-on is for something else, like a loose-ball foul by your team, or even an official's error? Or he called the play-on for a loose-ball interference, and you pick up the ball, ending the play-on (as pboyd describes above)? Then the attackman picks up the ball and fires it into the goal, and the goal is good. I mean, you can be pretty sure, but you can never be sure.

The same thing applies to, say, playing a loose ball and getting pushed. Sometimes player A1 knows he got pushed and hears "Play on!" so he stops playing. But maybe the official didn't see the push by B1 but a hold by A2. If you stop playing, you may give a fast break to the opponents.

If you have possession, you're interfered with while in the crease, and you want the free clear, just stand there with possession for 4 seconds. That way if you happen to be wrong somehow, the offense will get the balll outside the attack area.