View Full Version : Goalie interference with flag down
C.Montgomery
03-02-2006, 10:47 AM
A1 in defensive half, clearing the ball, is slashed by B1. A1 then passes to GK A2 who is in his crease. B2 then checks the stick of A2 while he is in the crease and has possession causing him to drop the ball. B1 is going to serve 1-3 minutes for the slash and team A will get the ball over midfield. Does B2 have to serve any penalty time or is there no penalty for GK interference in this case?
LaxRef
03-02-2006, 11:00 AM
NCAA or NFHS? Big difference here.
In NFHS, as much as you might feel that B2 should be punished (and I'm not sure I disagree), I don't think the rules cover this situation, so B2 essentially gets a "free" foul unless you think you have something warranting USC (like he takes 2 steps into the crease and gets all over the goalie to make him drop the ball because he thinks he can't be penalized).
In NCAA, I was about to say that it would be time-serving. However, the new flag-down rule in NCAA specifies that all technicals are time-serving once the ball enters the attack area. Thus, I'm thinking it might be the same.
It sure feels like this should be time-serving, but I don't think it is. Anyone else have thoughts?
C.Montgomery
03-02-2006, 11:09 AM
NCAA or NFHS? Big difference here.
In NFHS, as much as you might feel that B2 should be punished (and I'm not sure I disagree), I don't think the rules cover this situation, so B2 essentially gets a "free" foul unless you think you have something warranting USC (like he takes 2 steps into the crease and gets all over the goalie to make him drop the ball because he thinks he can't be penalized).
In NCAA, I was about to say that it would be time-serving. However, the new flag-down rule in NCAA specifies that all technicals are time-serving once the ball enters the attack area. Thus, I'm thinking it might be the same.
It sure feels like this should be time-serving, but I don't think it is. Anyone else have thoughts?
I agree. I feel as the rules are written for NCAA/NFHS (not ILF) this is a "free" foul. I have never seen this happen, but the idea that someone could get a "free" foul just feels wrong.
3rdPersonPlural
03-02-2006, 11:13 AM
So with a flag down on B any and all technicals by B before the ball enters A's attack area are 'free'? (NFHS?)
I agree with Monty. This is funky...
C.Montgomery
03-02-2006, 11:23 AM
The only "free" technicals would be crease violations/GK interference with the ball/goalie in the crease.
LaxRef
03-02-2006, 11:30 AM
So with a flag down on B any and all technicals by B before the ball enters A's attack area are 'free'? (NFHS?)
I agree with Monty. This is funky...
Certainly not all technicals, as any other technical would be a technical with possession and would serve 30 seconds (unless, of course, a goal is scored during the flag down).
However, we have two technicals which occur during posession by the offended team which are not time-serving: goalie interference with possession in the crease, and a crease violation with possession in the crease. These are both play-ons, with the penalty being a free clear if the outlet pass is incomplete (or not picked up immediately) or if the ball isn't run out of the crease.
Here--to me, at least--the crease violation isn't an issue. B1 slashes A1, flag down, A1 passes to GK A2, B2 steps in the crease. Eh, big deal. But if the foul is interference, you're killing the team's advantage, and it seems like there should be a consequence.
laxfan25
03-02-2006, 11:50 AM
At first I was going to say that it would be different in the NCAA and Fed, but as I thought it through I believe it would be the same - time serving. My feeling is the key item is that the team had possession when the second foul was committed, which in any FDSW situation would earn an additional time-serving penalty.
The new NCAA rule even makes it time-serving when the ball is loose, but it would always have been time-serving if there was possession when the technical was committed. I would feel right giving 30 seconds for the GK intereference, but I may be proven wrong.
LaxRef
03-02-2006, 12:09 PM
At first I was going to say that it would be different in the NCAA and Fed, but as I thought it through I believe it would be the same - time serving. My feeling is the key item is that the team had possession when the second foul was committed,
Which matters for every technical foul but a crease violation with possesion in the crease or interference with possession in the crease.
which in any FDSW situation would earn an additional time-serving penalty .
Where does it say this? What makes you think that this overrides the fact that the penalty for a crease violation with possesion in the crease or interference with possession in the crease is a free clear?
The new NCAA rule even makes it time-serving when the ball is loose, but it would always have been time-serving if there was possession when the technical was committed.
Only if there is possession in the box. So, if team A has possession in the box and B1 interferes with goalie A1 waaaaay at the other end of the field, I agree it's time serving. If you see it and call it.
I would feel right giving 30 seconds for the GK intereference, but I may be proven wrong.
It would feel right, but that doesn't make it right.
I think LaxRef is right: only with ball in the attack goal area can loose-ball violations generate another flag.
LaxRef
03-02-2006, 12:13 PM
I think LaxRef is right: only with ball in the attack goal area can loose-ball violations generate another flag.
What's your thought on the original situation: flag down, then goalie interference with possession in the crease? Time-serving, or no penalty of any kind (since they're going to get a free clear anyway)?
laxfan25
03-02-2006, 12:42 PM
Only if there is possession in the box. So, if team A has possession in the box and B1 interferes with goalie A1 waaaaay at the other end of the field, I agree it's time serving. If you see it and call it.
It would feel right, but that doesn't make it right.
See, I told you I would be proven wrong. But hey, don't you care about my feelings???
I think we need an A.R. to cover this situation - it would seem to goad the penalized team into whacking the goalie's stick, since there's no additional fine. We shouldn't be encouraging lawlessness out there. :clap:
By NCAA new rule, page 82 ..."where a flag is down, in this situation , once the ball enters the attack goal area, all technical fouls...against the def. team are time-serving..."
In the above situation we are stuck. There would not be an additional flag for the goalie interference...just as in the past. There would have to a rule change/AR.
Of course, if he really belts the goalie it could be a personal foul.
CoachRob
03-03-2006, 11:21 AM
Flag down against B1 for s slash, he serves time. The GKI against B2 only gets a free clear for team A. If team A commits a foul, then we are into simult. fouls, which mucks it up. But this GKI is no more than a free clear, and is not time serving. Why would you think the slash B2's teammate committed would punish B2 as well? That doesn't make any sense, LR. (the sins of the father should not be visited upon his son, so to speak)
LaxRef
03-03-2006, 11:37 AM
Flag down against B1 for s slash, he serves time. The GKI against B2 only gets a free clear for team A. If team A commits a foul, then we are into simult. fouls, which mucks it up. But this GKI is no more than a free clear, and is not time serving. Why would you think the slash B2's teammate committed would punish B2 as well? That doesn't make any sense, LR. (the sins of the father should not be visited upon his son, so to speak)
The issue is that B2 is getting a "free" foul, since team A is already getting a free clear. Thus, B2 knows that he can hack away at the goalie's crosse, even though he's in the crease, since there's no way to penalize him for it. Thus, the rule should be changed to allow a penalty here.
But, again, the rules the way they are now don't really allow you to penalize B2.
This situation has been kicked upstairs to the rules committee.
LaxRef
03-03-2006, 01:14 PM
This situation has been kicked upstairs to the rules committee.
And it's on my list so that if it doesn't get addressed now maybe it will for next season.
laxfan25
03-06-2006, 04:32 PM
I was reading the FDSW section in response to one of ShrekJr's questions, when I noticed this A.R.
A.R. 28.... A1 interferes with the goalkeeper, play-on. B1 then slashes A1 and the play is stopped. A1 serves 30 seconds for interference and B1 serves one minute for the slash. RULING: In both cases, play shall be resumed with the ball being put back into play from the spot where the second foul occurred, with the 20-yard rule in effect.
Isn't this almost on point to our discussion here - that GK interference is only a play on - never a time-serving offense? Based on this A.R., they are giving A1 30 seconds for that infraction. While this is more of a simultaneous foul situation on opposing teams, isn't the concept the same - GKI CAN be time-serving at times?
C.Montgomery
12-17-2006, 09:12 PM
It's a new year, and after a one full pass (plus a little more) of the 2007 rules, I can't find anything that addresses this situation.
LaxRef
12-17-2006, 10:11 PM
It's a new year, and after a one full pass (plus a little more) of the 2007 rules, I can't find anything that addresses this situation.
Looking at my notes, I did not submit this for this season; I thought it was a little too esoteric and that I was already pushing my luck with the number of suggestions I submitted. I was, however, quite successful again this year and will try to submit it for next year.