Stick check protocol question

[3rdPersonPlural]

Yesterday I checked a stick that failed the 'roll out' test.

Or maybe it didn't.

Depends.

My co ref tossed me the ball when I secured the stick and I caught it with the stick, lodging the ball more firmly in the pocket than if I had just gently dropped it into the pocket. The roll out failed at 45 degrees, with the ball hung up onsome crinkled mesh near the ball stop.

I tried it a second time ('cause it was a close game and I'm not going to ding a minute unless I have to) and just dropped the ball in. The ball rolled out fine.

I dinged it because both coaches had seen me standing there with the stick at a steep angle with no roll out, but I felt a little like I'd created a bias by testing with a caught rather than a dropped ball.

I'm not losing sleep over this but I'm wondering if there's a procedure or protocol that I should have had in mind...

Thanks!

[laxfan25]

A good example of why we should do our stick checks at midfield, away form the madding crowd!
When I check the pocket I usually toss the ball in, not a gentle drop, but not hammering it in there either. I will also push the stick forward to get the ball into the base of the head, and then check. If it hangs for a moment and drops I usually won't ding it. I also turn the stick to 90 degrees to check. It's always nice when you can hold the stick horizontal and the ball isn't coming out - that usually quiets the bench.

[SDS416]

See, I am not sure this was done correctly. I've never seen a ref catch a toss/pass from another person and conduct the test. I think the ball should be placed in the crosse and the test conducted.

I assume you usually place the ball in the crosse. And you need to do each test in identical fashion. So in this instance I think the test was administered incorrectly.

I bet one of the coaches was more than a little bit hot, I know I would have been.

[3rdPersonPlural]

No hot coaches. Nobody pays much attention to stick checks until the actual examination which was 20 seconds after I secured ball/stick. Everybody saw the roll out fail.

I still catch soft, so I suppose that I had adhered to 25's protocol.

[Shorelax]

This is interesting....what initally came to my mind was rules versus mechanics. The rules tell us the ball must roll out - but do they tell us it must be dropped into the stick?? I breezed quickly through the NFHS and couldnt find anything about "dropping" the ball in. I am at me desk at work though...it could be in there.

Mechanics tells us if we do it the same way each time we create less oppurtunity for doubt.


I think you made the right call!!

[RockStar]

I'd say catch a pass, and throw in a few cradles, and maybe a gentle pump fake or two.

The stick has not been put through anything that would not be considered abnormal. If the pocket sags a bit deep after this treatment, there's really no need to be shy about flagging.

The only thing you need to remember for fairness' sake is to do all checks, including random ones, exactly the same way.

[Snake~eyes]

I tried it a second time ('cause it was a close game and I'm not going to ding a minute unless I have to) and just dropped the ball in. The ball rolled out fine.
This is a three minute penalty, not a one minute penalty.

[laxfan25]

This is a three minute penalty, not a one minute penalty.
I don't remember if it's NCAA or NFHS, but they've introduced that wiggle-room now, where if it's the pocket that causes the ball to not release, that you can call it a 1 min pcoket violation and have them correct it. At least that's what I recollect hearing.

[WHEELAX2]

why not drop the ball in.. roll it back and forth in the pocket, then do the test?

[Shorelax]

why not drop the ball in.. roll it back and forth in the pocket, then do the test?

Wheel - that is exactly what I do.

[WHEELAX2]

yeah.. seems reasonable.. especially with how hard some mesh can be...

and, just because the coaches saw you do the check, and it appeared illegal at the time, the results weren't conclusive.. I think you have to be 100% certain.. you can check the stick a few times.. to be sure..

[3rdPersonPlural]

Snake and 25,

Rule 5, section 4 page 36.

Deep pocket 1 minute NR. A crosse altered to gain an advantage (too short, etc.) is a 3 min NR.

However, on page 76 there is a scenario that compels a 3 minute penalty on a failed roll out UNLESS the pocket is too deep.

Odd. I blew it. I didn't feel that the violation was the result of a deliberate modification, though.

[LaxRef]

My co ref tossed me the ball when I secured the stick and I caught it with the stick, lodging the ball more firmly in the pocket than if I had just gently dropped it into the pocket. The roll out failed at 45 degrees, with the ball hung up onsome crinkled mesh near the ball stop.

I tried it a second time ('cause it was a close game and I'm not going to ding a minute unless I have to) and just dropped the ball in. The ball rolled out fine.

No foul, for two reasons. One, if I try it and it seems to stick, but I do the test a few more times and can't repeat it, I assume something funky (like some mesh getting pinched between the ball and the head) happened and the stick is really legal.

But more importantly, the rule says:

A.R. 6: During the crosse inspection, the officials discover that the ball does not roll freely from the pocket, with the ball either remaining in the pocket when the head is rotated toward the ground and held horizontally or the ball sticking momentarily before rolling out. RULING: 3:00 non-releasable penalty and the stick is removed from the game whether the ball is being held by the head or by the stringing. (Exception: If the pocket is too deep and the officials feel that the pocket depth is the reason the ball will not release, a 1:00 nonreleasable penalty may be assessed and the crosse may return if adjusted.)

Thus, I'm not flagging it if the ball hitches at 45 degrees; I'm looking to see if the ball is still in the crosse when it's held horzontally. I believe the NFHS wording is the same (since I submitted the same suggestion to both rules committees).

[3rdPersonPlural]

"Rolls freely' is the term that is causing the difference here.

A ball will 'roll' way before horizontal. At horizontal it, well, drops. No rolling involved. This is the expectation beyond 45 degrees, as a matter of physics.

I read that rule as the rotation should be from vertical to horizontal, and if it don't roll on the way there, it fails.

[3rdPersonPlural]

LR read 5.4 situation H on page 76 of NHSF book.



'when the head is rotated toward the ground' happens WAY before horizontal, as I see it.

[LaxRef]

LR read 5.4 situation H on page 76 of NHSF book.

'when the head is rotated toward the ground' happens WAY before horizontal, as I see it.

You're right, the wording isn't the same. But there's still no justification for picking 45 degrees. I mean, if the ball sticks in the head momentarily when the cross is at 85 degrees, are you going to flag that? I mean, you've rotated it from 90 degrees to 85 degrees, which is certainly rotating it toward the ground, right? Where do you draw the line?

As I've mentioned, I'm really working hard these days to not over-officiate, and this is a good example. If we flag it only when the ball sticks when the crosse is horizontal, no one in their right mind can argue the call (though there will still be people who argue it; I'll leave it as an exercise to determine the logical implications of what I think about those people).

If you pick 45 or 30 or 60 or 85 degrees, you're making an arbitrary judgment that won't be the same from game to game. Further, the players have no way of knowing what "today's rule" will be and so can't set their sticks accordingly. When you do the coach's certification, the coach would have to ask, "I don't know if their equipment is legal. What angle do you use on the rollout test? What about your partners?"

Finally, if we use "horizontal" as a benchmark, we can always say, "Well, the NCAA uses 'horizontal,' so that's what we're interpreting the NFHS rule to mean as well."

[3rdPersonPlural]

I see your point, and it is likely that if the ball does not come out at 45 degrees or less it is also sticking at horizontal, but it's that word 'roll' that leads me to believe that somewhere between 90 and 45 is where the rulebook meant for us to set the line.

Your standard is absolute and easy to replicate and categorize, but it's a 'drop out' test, not a roll out test.

[laxfan25]

I also like the "absolute" nature of going to horizontal. Sticks that have been pinched won't release the ball even when you get to 90, and it is blatantly obvious that we have a foul as you walk the stick to the table.

[eme]

Page 95 of the current ncaa rulebook has pictures of the stick check procedure.

[LaxRef]

Page 95 of the current ncaa rulebook has pictures of the stick check procedure.

True, but that doesn't give any guidance as to where the ball has to roll out.

[laxfan25]

Page 95 of the current ncaa rulebook has pictures of the stick check procedure.
Well THAT certainly clears things up! Lessee, you bring the stick to a 15 degree angle from vertical and the ball should pop out... Can't see anyone complaining about failing THAT test. :agree:
Actually, if the NCAA followed up on the stick instructions from a "few" years ago, the ball was supposed to be resting ON the stop when the stick was held vertical, no baggy pocket behind the stop where the ball would nestle.
If that was the case the ball would roll out as soon as you went a little past vertical. We all know where that point of emphasis went - right where the "hand on the plastic" went!

[Shorelax]

and as it relates to 3rd's original question...there is no guidance in how to place the ball into the stick.