Multiple penalty?

[Woodenstick]

1. A1 has a knee on the ground w/i 5 yards of a loose ball. B1 bodychecks A1 from the back , initiating the contact with his head.

2. C1 and D1 get in a fight. D2 leaves the bench and strikes C1 while yelling obsenities.

3. E1 passes to E2. As E1 releases the ball, F1 bodychecks E1 to the ground. F1 then refuses to get off E1. When E1 tries to shove F1 off, F1 punches E1.

What is your call? This would be a quiz if I was sure that I knew the answers...

[LaxRef]

My answers follow. These may not be the same for everyone.

1. A1 has a knee on the ground w/i 5 yards of a loose ball. B1 bodychecks A1 from the back , initiating the contact with his head.

I'd have to see it. It's spearing, so it's a minimum of a 1:00 NR penalty. The "from behind" and "on the ground," to me, add to the perceived severity of the foul, so it would probably be at least 2:00-3:00 NR. However, this sound so blatant that I might rule it to be a 3:00 USC (really matters only for HS, where two USCs gets you ejected) or a 3:00 NR ejection foul.

2. C1 and D1 get in a fight. D2 leaves the bench and strikes C1 while yelling obsenities.

C1 and D1 ejected, 3:00 NR penalty for each (simultaneous fouls for the purposes of determining who gets possession). Now D2 gets a dead-ball expulsion foul, so team C will get possession. I see what you're saying: D2 has committed two expulsion fouls (fighting and leaving the bench) and a USC (language). If he uttered the obscenities before leaving the bench, you could pile a USC on top of the expulsion foul, but otherwise I think it's all part of one 3:00 NR expulsion foul. However, I would include all of this info in my report and suggest that the suspension be extended since he left the bench and then threw punches.

When it is "less simultaneous" (e.g., D2 leaves the bench, you eject him, and then he starts more trouble of any kind after he should have been removed from the field and the coach is not controlling the player), you can give the coach a USC for not controlling the ejected player.


3. E1 passes to E2. As E1 releases the ball, F1 bodychecks E1 to the ground. F1 then refuses to get off E1. When E1 tries to shove F1 off, F1 punches E1.

Depends on whether there's possession. I'm assuming the bodycheck is legal (maybe it's not; if so, 1:00-3:00 penalty). F1 refusing to get off E1 is a hold or interference, so that's possession (play on, of course) if the ball is loose or a 30-second technical if it's in possession. (If F1 is still on E1 when possession is gained off the play on, then you'd have a technical with possession and F1 would get 30 seconds.)

I'm thinking E1 is probably guiltless in trying to get F1 off of him, but I'd have to see it. Then F1 gets ejected for throwing the punch.

So, you have

1:00-3:00 for the IBC, if any.
0-30 seconds for interference.
3:00 NR for the expulsion foul.

The difference here is that we have distinct fouls before the expulsion foul. Once the guy is expelled, you can't keep penalizing him (although I think when a player is disqualified for 5 personals, there's nothing to keep you from giving him more; I gave such a player a USC once when he threw a little tantrum after getting his fifth personal).

I hope that helps!

[blindbill]

Without my rule book:
1) B1 = 3 min for spearing + 1 min. for illegal body check + expulsion
2) Depending on "fight", C1 & D1 = 1, 2 or 3 min. USC + possible expulsion;
D2 = 3 min. USC for leaving bench area + 1 min. for obsenities + expulsion
3) F1 = 3 min. USC for punch + expulsion

[laxfan25]

Without my rule book:
1) B1 = 3 min for spearing + 1 min. for illegal body check + expulsion
2) Depending on "fight", C1 & D1 = 1, 2 or 3 min. USC + possible expulsion;
D2 = 3 min. USC for leaving bench area + 1 min. for obsenities + expulsion
3) F1 = 3 min. USC for punch + expulsion

1) If I'm going to give him 3 min for spearing, I wouldn't add another minute for an illegal bodycheck - I would just consolidate the violations under the one major foul.
2) If C1 and D1 are truly fighting I don't think you have an option on the expulsion, give 'em three and toss 'em. D2 would pick up 3 for fighting and be expelled, again I would likely consider the language as part of the other foul.
3) F1 will get a hold call (0 - 30 as LR said), but then get 3 and an expulsion.

Sounds like you better get that game under control! Whew!

[blindbill]

I am under the impression that we can give someone 4 min. max. Is this incorrect? Or is this just for stick/equipment inspection violations?

Under the circumstances described, I'd give 'em all I could.

[LaxRef]

Without my rule book:
1) B1 = 3 min for spearing + 1 min. for illegal body check + expulsion
2) Depending on "fight", C1 & D1 = 1, 2 or 3 min. USC + possible expulsion;
D2 = 3 min. USC for leaving bench area + 1 min. for obsenities + expulsion
3) F1 = 3 min. USC for punch + expulsion


For (1), it's one illegal bodycheck. I don't think you can give two illegal body check penalties for one boody check (spearing is an illegal body check penalty). And I don't think you can give him an illegal body check penalty and an expulsion for the same action. I mean, if you're going to do that, what's to stop you from giving him 3:00 IBC + 3:00 USC + 3:00 Expulsion = 9:00 NR?

Similarly for (2); you need to eject C1 and D1 (since they were fighting); I don't think you can give D2 7:00 NR, especially since leaving the bench is an expulsion foul, not a USC.

Finally, in (3), the punch bring s a 3:00 NR expulsion foul; it is not a USC and an expulsion foul.

[LaxRef]

I am under the impression that we can give someone 4 min. max. Is this incorrect? Or is this just for stick/equipment inspection violations?


This is not a rule, but an interpretation. You can't give more than 3:00 for an illegal crosse; you can pile on 1:00 NR for adjusting or jamming the crosse, and I don't see why they couldn't get another minute for not having, say, shoulder pads. Convention is that if a guy has no shoulder or arm pads, illegal gloves and helmet, and no mouthguard, you just penalize him 1:00, although that is not in the rules.

I just caution you against piling on multiple penalties for what is one action; I believe that is dangerous territory. Of course, if there's an illegal bodycheck followed by a trip, penalize both fouls.

[eme]

3-min penalty for illegal crosse has been in the books for many years; LaxRef must be daydreaming!
Add another minute for jamming/altering it before handing it to the ref...under NFHS rules/interpetations that would be 4 minutes NR.

Same scenario with deep pocket crosse could be 2 minutes NR

[LaxRef]

3-min penalty for illegal crosse has been in the books for many years; LaxRef must be daydreaming!
Add another minute for jamming/altering it before handing it to the ref...under NFHS rules/interpetations that would be 4 minutes NR.

Same scenario with deep pocket crosse could be 2 minutes NR

Whoops, I fixed the typo. Yes, up to 3:00 NR for illegal crosse.

What about illegal crosse + jamming/adjusting + no shoulder pads? Do you give 4:00 NR or 5:00 NR?

And, eme, what is your opinion on the three scenarios in the first post?

[eme]

Fed. rules

1. spearing. At least one minute NR depending on severity.
2. C1, D1, D2 all ejected. 3-min NR for each. Team C gets ball. Three players must leave area if there is an assistant coach to escort C player and D players to their respective buses. If no assistant coach, then they stay.
3. I will assume our Friend F1's first bodycheck is legal. Not letting the player up= one min. USC NR. Then he's ejected. 3min. NR. So Team F is down a man for four minutes NR while F1 studies the inside of his team bus with his assistant coach.
I suppose you could be more lenient on his not letting the player up...but his subsequent action evaporates all my mercy.

[LaxRef]

3. I will assume our Friend F1's first bodycheck is legal. Not letting the player up= one min. USC NR. Then he's ejected. 3min. NR. So Team F is down a man for four minutes NR while F1 studies the inside of his team bus with his assistant coach.
I suppose you could be more lenient on his not letting the player up...but his subsequent action evaporates all my mercy.

Good point. A little revisionist history is an option here! (I'm not disagreeing; I'm saying we aren't committed to calling it interference even if that's what we initially intended to call).

What about illegal crosse + jamming/adjusting + no shoulder pads? Do you give 4:00 NR or 5:00 NR?

[eme]

Currently accepted practice is the jamming is one minute NR...and then we penalize only the most severe of the equipment violations.

[LaxRef]

Currently accepted practice is the jamming is one minute NR...and then we penalize only the most severe of the equipment violations.

Call me crazy, but if this is what they want they really ought to put it in the rulebook!

[eme]

We are in heated agreement on that!