Sideline Scenarios

[avo]

Did my first HS game of year last night and had two interesting sideline events within a few minutes time:

1) Loose ball near sideline goes off a Team A stick and, while in air, makes contact with leg of team B player who has fallen out of bounds with leg on sideline but not on field.


2) Team A throws high cross field pass that is headed out of bounds in front of Team B bench. Team B player on sidline reaches to catch ball and makes contact with ball before it has crossed the sideline.


How is ball awarded in each case?

[tjslax]

1) The ball is not out of bounds until it touches the boundry line or something on or beyond the boundry line. I would think of this in the same vein as: someone diving to make a play on the ball..they get to it but cannot deflect it all the way back into the field of play. You cannot assume where the ball would land if it was not touched, because B touched it with his leg on the sideline, I would award the ball to A.

2) This would depend exactly where the ball was and its trajectory. You could either call B for IP for playing the ball from the bench, or (to completetly disregard my rationale in #1-you cannot assume where the ball will land) if the ball was going to land WELL outside the field of play-with no one on the field of play attempting to make a play on the ball, thank B for grabbing a ball we would normally have to wait to be retrieved. I would probably, If they did not interfere with anyone trying to make a play and the ball looked to be heading out of bounds warn B's bench to let the ball land next time.

[laxpro]

I'm not quite sure but I think:

Situation 1) It goes to Team A
Situation 2) It goes to Team A

[LaxRef]

1) Loose ball near sideline goes off a Team A stick and, while in air, makes contact with leg of team B player who has fallen out of bounds with leg on sideline but not on field.

This is trickier than it should be. I'll assume this is not a shot (if it were, it would go to the team of the closest player to the ball other than B1, who is not eligible since he's OOB).

B1 is out of bounds since he's on the sideline. The easiest thing to do is to call B1 for illegal procedure—participating in the play while out of bounds. It was unintentional, but he still participated; who knows whether some team A player might have been able to get to the ball before it went out if B1 hadn't touched it. If you rule this, it's a loose-ball technical foul on B1 and—this is important—no sideline horn can be granted.

The other interpretation is to treat is just as a ball going out of bounds. Here, we need

Loose ball - When a loose ball touches a boundary line or the ground outside a boundary line, or when it touches anything on the boundary line or outside boundary line, it is out of bounds, and the following rules apply:

a. Except on a shot or deflected shot at the goal, the ball shall be awarded at the point where it was declared out of bounds to any player on the team opposing that of the player who last touched the ball, who is ready immediately to make the free play.

Hmmmmm. Even though it goes out of bounds at the moment it touches B1, I would still say that it last touched B1. Thus, this would give the ball to team A. With this ruling, you would allow a sideline horn. I'm inclined to side with my first thought above, but it really doesn't matter much.

Both of these coincide with common sense: it just "feels right" that team A gets the ball because B1 touched it last, even though B1 was already OOB.


2) Team A throws high cross field pass that is headed out of bounds in front of Team B bench. Team B player on sidline reaches to catch ball and makes contact with ball before it has crossed the sideline.

Ball is last touched by team B, so the ball goes to team A. See the rule quoted above.

The tricky one is:

A1 fires a shot just over the crossbar. B1 is behind the goal and tries to catch the shot, which deflects off his stick and OOB. B1 is in bounds and closest to the ball when it goes OOB. Ruling?

The ball goes to team B. The shot is still a shot when it goes out even though it was deflected, so the usual "closest to the ball rule" applies. This is quite different from the ruling when it is a pass.

[LaxRef]

2) This would depend exactly where the ball was and its trajectory. You could either call B for IP for playing the ball from the bench, or (to completetly disregard my rationale in #1-you cannot assume where the ball will land) if the ball was going to land WELL outside the field of play-with no one on the field of play attempting to make a play on the ball, thank B for grabbing a ball we would normally have to wait to be retrieved. I would probably, If they did not interfere with anyone trying to make a play and the ball looked to be heading out of bounds warn B's bench to let the ball land next time.

Ah, I was reading "team B player on the sideline" to mean one legally in the game, standing on the field near the sideline. If it's a bench player touching the ball before it's OOB, you give him a conduct foul for being in the coaches' box and award the ball to team A. If the player is in the bench area when he touches the ball, there's no foul IMO.

[laxfan25]

My thoughts - In the first case, B is out of bounds, and is not making any attempt to play the ball, he was just there. Once it hit him, the ball is OOB, off A.
In the second part, since B touched the ball before it crossed the sideline, I would call illegal procedure, and award to A. If the ball had crossed the sideline before B touched it I would rule the other way and give it to B.

[avo]

Laxfan25 must have been at the game because those were the calls I made and the logic I used.
Now in the first scenario, if the leg had been inbounds while body was out of bounds I would have gone the other way.

[tjslax]

The definition for out of bounds is: when a player with posession, steps on the boundry line, or any part of his body or crosse touches the ground on or beyond a boundry line

[LaxRef]

The definition for out of bounds is: when a player with posession, steps on the boundry line, or any part of his body or crosse touches the ground on or beyond a boundry line

But the real question here is, "When a loose ball hits a player who is standing with some part of his body OOB, is it considered to be OOB off that player (because it touched him) or OOB on the last player to touch it before him (since that player caused the ball to touch something "on or outside the boundary line)?"

[tjslax]

I think if the player was someone in the game you need to call it off the player on the sideline, just like you would if he were making a play on the ball. 2 reasons: I don't think you can assume where it would have landed had he not touched it and It prohibits other players from making a play on the ball. I think the act of touching the ball while out of bounds (or having the ball touch you)is, in effect, your play on the ball.
It's your fault the ball is being blown dead.

If the ball were to hit someone on the bench out of bounds (provided they were actually in the bench area) I would consider the ball OOb on the player who provided the impetus to propel the ball OOB

[tjslax]

Or should we in this case call IP on a lose ball for playing the ball from out of bounds and simply award it to the other team? Yes, that is my new decision (Laxref, you were right earlier-but I think it goes for any player not legaly on the field)...rule 6-5-g, participation in the play of the game by a player out of bounds. If you touch the ball before it's been blown dead and you are out of bounds you definetly are participating.

[LaxRef]

I think if the player was someone in the game you need to call it off the player on the sideline, just like you would if he were making a play on the ball. 2 reasons: I don't think you can assume where it would have landed had he not touched it and It prohibits other players from making a play on the ball. I think the act of touching the ball while out of bounds (or having the ball touch you)is, in effect, your play on the ball.
It's your fault the ball is being blown dead.

I agree with you, but not everyone here does, I guess.

[LaxRef]

(Combining the same thought from two different posts:)

If the ball were to hit someone on the bench out of bounds (provided they were actually in the bench area) I would consider the ball OOb on the player who provided the impetus to propel the ball OOB

Or should we in this case call IP on a lose ball for playing the ball from out of bounds and simply award it to the other team? Yes, that is my new decision (Laxref, you were right earlier-but I think it goes for any player not legaly on the field)...rule 6-5-g, participation in the play of the game by a player out of bounds. If you touch the ball before it's been blown dead and you are out of bounds you definetly are participating.

Here, I disagree somewhat. If it hits a player on the bench, there's no way a player on the field is going to be able to keep it from being an OOB ball. Remember, a player in the the bench area is at least 18 feet from the sideline; I am unwilling to concede that a player could jump from inbounds, fly 18 feet through the air, and then deflect the ball back onto the field of play before landing on the ground. It is theoretically possible, but so unlikely that the possibility should have no bearing on one's rulings (just like it's theoretically possible that someone could accidentally deposit $1 million in my checking account and never notice the error, but I probably shouldn't go buy that new Porsche because of this).

Again, if the sub is in the coaches area, that's already a conduct foul, so we don't need to worry about the result of the OOB play.

Finally, there is a semantic issue here. The book speaks of "players" and "substitutes"; the implication may be that when they say "player" it means "a player legally in the game at that point" as opposed to "any team member." I'm not sure if they are consistent in this usage, but when they talk of "participation in the play of the game by a player out of bounds" they may not be taking about substitutes (and, after all, if they are in the bench area, they can hardly participate, and if they aren't that's another issue).

The only remaining angle to cover is what if A1 is waiting to sub in for A2 and he plays the ball while in the table area? I think I just call IP on A1, give the ball to team B, and don't worry about an "official" explanation for the IP, although I guess you could call it a sub infraction since he participated before the sub was completed.

[tjslax]

Lax ref, I agree. I said a player in the bench area would not be called for the out of bounds. But a player in the sub. box, coaches box or out of bounds on the sideline I think should get the IP.

[LaxRef]

Lax ref, I agree. I said a player in the bench area would not be called for the out of bounds. But a player in the sub. box, coaches box or out of bounds on the sideline I think should get the IP.

Sorry, I thought you were changing your mind in the next post when you spoke of your "new decision.

What if it hits a coach OOB in his box? I'd say that as long as he wasn't interfering with the play, it's off whoever touched it bafore it hit the coach. I'm not going to ding a coach, even if he intentionally catches the ball, unless another player had a chance to get to the ball; he's probably just trying to keep the ball close to the sideline so we can restart play quickly.

I did once have an assistant coach try to sneakily deflect a ball (that was going OOB right by some players) back in bounds.

[laxfan25]

I'd be interested in knowing how this would be called in basketball (someone throws the ball, hitting a palyer with one foot out). I would use that as a guideline.
Both points of view have their merits; one, that it is off the player that propelled it against the guy OOB, and two, that player is playing the ball from OOB. I use the criteria of whether he is actively playing the ball vs just being the recipient of contact when he is out.

[Bobeo]

I am a basketball referee and if a player has one foot out of bounds and the ball touches him it is out of bounds on that player.

[Snake~eyes]

Did my first HS game of year last night and had two interesting sideline events within a few minutes time:

1) Loose ball near sideline goes off a Team A stick and, while in air, makes contact with leg of team B player who has fallen out of bounds with leg on sideline but not on field.


2) Team A throws high cross field pass that is headed out of bounds in front of Team B bench. Team B player on sidline reaches to catch ball and makes contact with ball before it has crossed the sideline.


How is ball awarded in each case?
1) Is Team A
2) If Team B is a PLAYER on the field then give the ball to team A. If you felt it was clearly going out of bounds and team B did not interfere with play then give the ball to team B.

[laxfan25]

I am a basketball referee and if a player has one foot out of bounds and the ball touches him it is out of bounds on that player.
OK, I'm on board with awarding to Team A in the first situation. In the second, give it to Team A if B reached onto the field - Team B if it went hurtling to the bench.