Where does the NLL stand? [Archive]

tastycakes

04-11-2006, 06:35 PM

I think I've seen this topic on other boards, but just wondering where you guys think the NLL ranks among the leagues in North America. My opinion...

1 NFL
2 MLB
3 NBA
4 NHL
5 MLS
6 CFL
7 AFL
8 NLL

And that's without including any NCAA sports, PGA, Nascar and a bunch of other untraditional leagues. Also factor in soccer and rugby in Europe, Asia, Australia, blah, blah, blah... is the NLL really anywhere near penetrating even North America. Basically, what percentage of the US and Canada even cares about the NLL?

slinkyspine

04-11-2006, 06:57 PM

tastycakes

04-11-2006, 07:24 PM

Do you really think Canadians care more about the NLL than the NBA? Obviously with the Grizzlies leaving Canada, the west doesn't care about pro bball, but I look at it like this... I think for the most part, 75% plus of the people in places like Toronto and Calgary that like the NLL, are at those games, it's the only reason why those two arenas in particular get as many people to games as they do. With the Raptors in Toronto, I bet they have a ton of people waiting and watching at home, on top of the people that pretty much sell out the ACC during a much longer season than the Rock or Roughnecks. I'd say close to the same applise for the MLB. I think not even the average Canadian cares or even knows what the NLL is. I also think that probably like 60% plus at those NLL games, are the same 60% of people each and every game, the die hard. With the Raptors and Jays, I think that number drops a lot. Lots of different fans going out to games. Just my opinion though.

scruffy221

04-11-2006, 07:27 PM

is CFL canadian football league?

i have never seen that.

tastycakes

04-11-2006, 07:32 PM

is CFL canadian football league?

i have never seen that.
Yes it's the Canadian Football League. I actually saw a piece on Americans that watch the CFL and believe it or not, it has a real following. But based on the crowds the CFL gets, the national tv coverage, at least in Canada on both CBC and TSN and their pay scale, I think the CFL puts the NLL to sleep with one quick punch.

slinkyspine

04-11-2006, 07:38 PM

tastycakes

04-11-2006, 07:45 PM

Yup no doubt.

Anyway I do think the NLL is mor epopular than the NBA in Canada. But the NBA is more televised than NLL. If they had equal coverage NLL would reign.
Interesting. Would the NLL have a bigger fan base if it was played on the tube as much as the NBA? I would tend to say yes. Right now the NBA is shown a lot on stations like Sportsnet, TSN and The Score in Canada, and it's not just the Raptors though.

Last year all I heard about was the NLL was invading our tv's. NBC, a national deal with The Score, regional with Sportsnet, regional on a bunch of other cities, and this year, nothing. I guess if you have a statelite it's great, but the NLL totally fell off the mainstream map this year. Who cares if you can watch a choppy broadcast over the web, most people don't want to take out their credit card to watch an NLL game. Certainly no new fan would. That B2 crap was strictly for the hardcore fan, nothing more. With nothing on the big stations, no one gives a No cursing.

slinkyspine

04-11-2006, 07:47 PM

I agree. But Sportsnet still covers it if there isn't an Oiler or Flame game here.

tastycakes

04-11-2006, 07:55 PM

And what about the NLL's web presence? What do you think of their site. I watch a lot of european stuff too (soccer, rugby, aussie rules football, etc...) and am always on their sites. By far the worst league sites and the NLL and the MLL. Just horendous in my opinion. A lot of white space on the NLL site, really bad pictures used for the most part, it looks like they are taking screen shots of their B2 broadcasts, and some brutal icons listed down the left hand side of their site. Great causes, but really poorly done. Their is virtually zero interaction with it's fanbase and like I mentioned in another thread, I wasn't impressed at all with their Fantasy League this year. Kind of fun, but poorly executed. I almost get the impression that they're hiring out high school kids to do freelance work for them.

tastycakes

04-11-2006, 08:19 PM

I think with basically two people posting after in an around 50 views, speaks volumes of the NLL's popularity. NO ONE CARES outside of the hardcore fans.

slinkyspine

04-11-2006, 08:26 PM

Yeah, I suppose your right. Website= crap

No tv coverage in the states really. Hardly any in Canucksville

No real media coverage.

RockStar

04-11-2006, 08:55 PM

WWE in there somewhere?

While it's only a pseudo sport, I bet it draws far better TV numbers than AFL and NLL.

tastycakes

04-12-2006, 07:39 AM

WWE in there somewhere?

While it's only a pseudo sport, I bet it draws far better TV numbers than AFL and NLL.
I would say combine the NLL, AFL and even CFL and that may come close to the kinda of numbers the WWE pulls in, but probably not. How about the AVP too? I would bet they do better than the NLL on a number of levels. Just saw a Gatorade ad last night highlighting the AVP.

WHEELAX2

04-12-2006, 07:54 AM

would anyone admit that they have inserted their own bias towards lacrosse into this little study..

you might have to look at real stats, not just what you "think" is the case

tastycakes

04-12-2006, 08:05 AM

would anyone admit that they have inserted their own bias towards lacrosse into this little study..

you might have to look at real stats, not just what you "think" is the case
But where do you get those kind of stats? The NLL never releases anything ever, I would imagine becasue their numbers are so bad. Also, outside of markets like Toronto, Colorado, Philadelphia, I know for a fact that attendance numbers in San Jose, Arizona, etc... are total BS. How is this league sustainable when someone like San Jose pulls in like 2K in the stands. The MSL attendance figures dwarf anything the NLL can post.

WHEELAX2

04-12-2006, 08:09 AM

But where do you get those kind of stats? The NLL never releases anything ever, I would imagine becasue their numbers are so bad. Also, outside of markets like Toronto, Colorado, Philadelphia, I know for a fact that attendance numbers in San Jose, Arizona, etc... are total BS. How is this league sustainable when someone like San Jose pulls in like 2K in the stands. The MSL attendance figures dwarf anything the NLL can post.

well.. a lot of marketing firms and other research groups compile these numbers.. they are hired by the leagues and advertisers in order to see if investing in them is a good ides..

kinda like how they say "survivor" got 9 million viewers last night, while the oscars got 3 million.. or whatever...

laxpimp

04-12-2006, 09:17 AM

... I know for a fact that attendance numbers in San Jose, Arizona, etc... are total BS. How is this league sustainable when someone like San Jose pulls in like 2K in the stands...

That's not a fact, because if it were both teams would be out of operation. A team needs to pull in an average of something like 10k per game in order to keep operations going. That's why teams like Montreal, Vancouver and Washington folded.

tastycakes

04-12-2006, 09:51 AM

That's not a fact, because if it were both teams would be out of operation. A team needs to pull in an average of something like 10k per game in order to keep operations going. That's why teams like Montreal, Vancouver and Washington folded.
Averages mean nothing. San Jose and Arizona averaged way less than that last year. Montreal averaged more than both of those teams combined in their one season. If team's needed to average anywhere near 10K, the league would have five teams, maybe. Montreal left becasue Brad Watters said he lost too much money, Vancouver left because of ownership issues and Washington left beacuse the Kronke group bought them out. The NLL can't force owners out of the league based on attendance, because if that was the case, the league would be five deep. Go check the attendance figures on the NLL's game sheets for places like San Jose and Arizona. They haven't come anywhere close to 10K this year or last year.

tastycakes

04-12-2006, 10:25 AM

Just looked at the attendance numbers. Toronto, Colorado, Philadelphia, Buffalo and Calgary average over 10K pretty easily while Rochester and Edmonton barely average the 10K mark. San Jose, Arizona, Minnesota and Portland don't come close. I know people that have been to games in San Jose and Arizona and after games the league claims there were over 5K in attendance, my buddies tell me there is barely 2K at best. Even using inflated numbers, probably counting freebies no one used, the league is struggling. I also think that new arena the Chicago team is supposed to be playing in only houses like 10K at capacity.

tastycakes

04-12-2006, 10:28 AM

Also, just looking at last year's figures and San Jose, Arizona, Anaheim, Minnesota and even Rochester averaged a lot less than 10K. Even Calgary just barely averaged 10K, and most considered that a strong market.

gaels_laxer_33

04-12-2006, 03:48 PM

laxgirl45

04-12-2006, 10:35 PM

In Canada the rankings would be

1. NHL
2. CFL
3. NFL
4. NLL
5. NBA
6. MLB

I agree. Not too many Canadians I know follow the NBA, we pretty much don't have any teams here.

roxlax

04-12-2006, 10:40 PM

I would of though the NLL would be 3rd in rankings in Canada. I've heard Speculations of the NFL expanding into the Canadian Market in cities like Vancouver and Toronto, I dont think that would work out too well, Canadians seem like they like their version of American Football more. Although, watching top D1 Athletes play as opposed to D2 and 2nd Rate D1 Players could attract alot more fans. As for MLB, Attendace for Blue Jays games are a joke, same thing with when the Nationals were still the Expos, Attendance averaged 10,000 a game 15,000 if they were lucky. With the exception of the NHL and the NLL I dont think American run sports leagues would be very successful expanding into the Canadian Market.

laxtime24

04-12-2006, 11:03 PM

what happened to Minnesoda and Portland werent they bringing in more fans? I remeber a exy game in minny brought in 14,000 and three on three games in portland brought in 10k

RockStar

04-12-2006, 11:05 PM

Yes it's the Canadian Football League. I actually saw a piece on Americans that watch the CFL and believe it or not, it has a real following. But based on the crowds the CFL gets, the national tv coverage, at least in Canada on both CBC and TSN and their pay scale, I think the CFL puts the NLL to sleep with one quick punch.

Agreed.

And as far as Americans following it - I understand that it showed up on cable sports channels like Empire, and that it kind of caught on. Why not? Americans love football and there isn't any other summertime football to speak of.

Other plusses:

The Canadian game moves faster (20 second play clock = up to twice as many plays executed per game).

Offense, offense, offense! 600 total yards possible, 500 total yards as common as 300 in NFL.

Much more variety in play calling. Ever seen 1st and goal on the 2? Sure you have. In Canada, you might see it played from the shotgun with a six receiver formation, three of whom were in motion in the backfield before the snap!

The arcane rules also make great trivia (gotta love Rouges, drop goals, shoot-out overtime format).

American football fans that give CFL a chance often find something they like. Only real criticism is that three downs vs. four leads to extra punting. The punting ain't ideal, but at least it's a high energy play. I know I'd rather see a few extra punts per game than watch an NFL game where both teams just pound it out relentlessly on the ground.

Level of play ain't quite to NFL, but there are plenty of good players (think about all the college stars that never crack the NFL......many end up in the North).

RockStar

04-12-2006, 11:17 PM

.......As for MLB, Attendace for Blue Jays games are a joke........

~24K average vs. ~30K league average. So, 80% of league average in 2005

Not great, but considering it's a slow and boring sport, that the Jays didn't have a prayer of making the playoffs last season, and that many Toronto fans found better stuff to do during the strike year and never came back.....

Wait and see what happens this season now that there's a fair shot at having a winning team.

roxlax

04-12-2006, 11:20 PM

~24K average vs. ~30K league average. So, 80% of league average in 2005

Not great, but considering it's a slow and boring sport, that the Jays didn't have a prayer of making the playoffs last season, and that many Toronto fans found better stuff to do during the strike year and never came back.....

Wait and see what happens this season now that there's a fair shot at having a winning team.

Teams like the Red Sox and Yankees average attendance is a little higher than 30k, usually around 30,000 for afternoon games and about 40,000 for night games and any time the 2 teams clash, 55,000+ packed house. It seems like every time i see the Blue Jays on Sports Center you see alot of empty seats, not as bad as what the Expos had but almost as bad

tastycakes

04-13-2006, 08:08 AM

what happened to Minnesoda and Portland werent they bringing in more fans? I remeber a exy game in minny brought in 14,000 and three on three games in portland brought in 10k
Those were free games open to anyone that wanted to go. I guess they didn't do it last year with Minnesota becasue of the hockey strike, but their numbers have gone way down. The NLL and it's teams need to learn how to market properly. They like to think of themselves as the next big thing, yet their marketing efforts don't come close to reflecting that. Lame for the most part.

Bagattaway20

04-13-2006, 06:37 PM

I would say the rankings are close but i think in Canada NBA will still be higher than lacrosse but everything else looks good

ramslac05

04-13-2006, 06:43 PM

RockStar

04-13-2006, 06:43 PM

I would say the rankings are close but i think in Canada NBA will still be higher than lacrosse but everything else looks good

Sportsnet showed a crapload of NBA this season, and only a handful of NLL.

Even in Canada, NBA probably runs away with this one in a landslide. Damn shame.

slinkyspine

04-13-2006, 06:45 PM

[QUOTE=tastycakes]I think I've seen this topic on other boards, but just wondering where you guys think the NLL ranks among the leagues in North America. My opinion...

1 NFL
2 MLB
3 NBA
4 NHL
5 MLS
6 CFL
7 AFL
8 NLL

QUOTE]
nba is better then mlb and and theres no way us americans ever watch cfl above the afl

arena is friggin sweet id put it above mlb and maybe even nhl
defiently above mls

Then you would be wrong. AFL is nowhere near the CFL in the states and certainly not Canada. And even if it was, my god above the MLB and NHL!?
Seriously, research this. You are so wrong you could be shot.

Bagattaway20

04-13-2006, 06:56 PM

Sportsnet showed a crapload of NBA this season, and only a handful of NLL.

Even in Canada, NBA probably runs away with this one in a landslide. Damn shame.

totally agree with you

RockStar

04-13-2006, 08:43 PM

[QUOTE=ramslac05]

Then you would be wrong. AFL is nowhere near the CFL in the states and certainly not Canada. And even if it was, my god above the MLB and NHL!?
Seriously, research this. You are so wrong you could be shot.

AFL is pathetic, but I'm sure it's well above CFL in the US.

In Canada forget it. Two huge strikes against it. 1) As stated, it's pathetic, and 2) it runs during hockey season.

temporary1357

04-13-2006, 08:56 PM

I'm not even gonna try Canada, because I'd only be guessing. So here's my opinion on professional male team sports leagues in America.

1. NFL
-The most revenues, the most fans, the biggest TV contracts, and just a nationwide obsession.
2. MLB
-Many detractors will say MLB is going down, but looking at revenues and attendances, you see none of that. Its TV ratings may be stagnants but it's WAY above NBA and NHL.
3. NBA
-A far cry from its heydey in the early-mid 90s when it had all those stars that would appear in every form of commercialism. But it's still a very popular league.
4. NHL
-The league has been bleeding in the US and it has never really gone past fighting for #3 in America, but it's an established "major" sport and it'll get its fans and revenues because of at least that fact.
5. AFL
-I really struggled between MLS and AFL at #5, and I eventually decided that AFL was #5. It has an impressive list of investors, is in more markets, and gets better mindshare than MLS from that TV deal on NBC, no matter how one-sided it may be.
6. MLS
-MLS has very good attendance numbers and some teams have their own stadiums. But having two owners own over half of the league isn't gonna promote much growth. And just like how the AFL deals with NFL fans that call it inferior, MLS has to deal with European and Mexican soccer fans that won't touch MLS.
7. NLL
-NLL is growing, but only because it was so far down. Its main problem is that it has to deal with the growth of the sport itself. Arena Football translates easily to the average American and the sport of soccer itself is known nationally, but there are still parts of the country that are still clueless to lacrosse.

tomahawks11

04-13-2006, 09:32 PM

I'd say your rankings are about right. It's sad NBA and the MLB are more popular than hockey and lacrosse.

In Canada the rankings would be

1. NHL
2. CFL
3. NFL
4. NLL
5. NBA
6. MLB

The other two I bet like 2% of population watch

nba is above NLL in canada. look at the tv ratings. but i agree that canada's national sport should be higher up

Canadian Lax

04-14-2006, 08:09 AM

newbielaxer

04-14-2006, 08:28 AM

well just how much longer has those sports had the t.v. exposure wait a little while and after the nll gets some more tv and other lax leagues get some more press the ratings will go up especially that these hot shots and stars of the game are not being paid millions upon millions to play the game they play for the love of it i think just maybe nll will eclipse cfl someday

Bagattaway20

04-15-2006, 04:38 PM

The reason the NLL hasn't had as much T.V. exposure because there was no interest. Now that big name companies like Reebok and Newbalance are interested in lacrosse (Newbalance for the MLL obviously) the growth is becoming bigger. People think that since the big names are coming on that its cool and that is good for the sport

ramslac05

04-15-2006, 04:46 PM

[QUOTE=ramslac05]

Then you would be wrong. AFL is nowhere near the CFL in the states and certainly not Canada. And even if it was, my god above the MLB and NHL!?
Seriously, research this. You are so wrong you could be shot.
im saying that from my point of view and u r completely wrong i gurantee less then 1 % of americans actually watch cfl over afl

Mr.Pockets19

04-15-2006, 06:05 PM

ok, u guys will probably laugh at me, but what is the SFL, i can honestly say that i've never heard of it.

slinkyspine

04-16-2006, 08:54 PM

I assume he meant AFL. AFL is the Arena Football League.

moondogkeep

12-14-2006, 02:06 PM

what is the cfl

PCO6

12-15-2006, 10:55 PM

what is the cfl

The "Canadian Football League" ... three downs on a wider, longer field with deeper end zones. We also have bigger balls. Seriously, the ball is bigger!

RockStar

12-16-2006, 08:50 AM

........We also have bigger balls. Seriously, the ball is bigger!
Sadly, I don't think this is true anymore.

The CFL ball still has the stripes and markings, but I think they recently standardized on an NFL size.

As for the CFL - If any American fan is looking for an off-season football fix, CFL beats the crap out of NFL Europe or arena ball. Many fans actually like it better than NFL because the game moves so much more quickly and there's more offense and more variety in play calling.

Below was written about the CFL by an acquaintance posting on another forum:

110 yard field, 20 yard end zones, goalposts at the front, 12 men a side, 3 downs, six receiver formations with more than one man in motion (out of the shotgun on 1st and 10).

Gotta love the pro football records from the CFL:
Passing Yards in one season- Doug Flutie BC Lions..1990....6682 yards (NFL record 5084 yards, Dan Marino, 1984)

Passing Yards in one game- Matt Dunigan, Winnipeg Blue Bombers 1995...713 yards(!)- Danny Barrett, BC Lions 1993...601 yards ( NFL record, 554 yards, Norm Van Brocklin)

Warren Moon of the Edmonton Eskimos was the first ever pro QB to pass for 5000 yards in a season (1982)and again in 1983

The CFL....109 yard TD passes, 128 yard interception returns, missed field goal returns for td's, the "rouge",

Some NFL notables have "dis"graced the CFL fields...Mark Gastineau (BC Lions), Dexter Manley (Ottawa Rough Riders), Vince Ferragamo( the Disaster in Montreal) Timm Rosenbach (Hamilton Tiger-Cats), Billy Joe Tolliver (Shreveport Pirates),Reggie Collier (Ottawa) Andre Ware (Ottawa, Toronto, B.C.)

The exceptions, of course were Doug Flutie and David Archer( Sacramento, San Antonio, Ottawa, Edmonton) Archer was a perfect fit for this league Excellent sideline to sideline passer, especially on the wider CFL field. Archer has the distinction of being the first US based pro QB to pass for over 6000 yards in a season (Sacramento 1993)

I just wish people would care about the league in Toronto, Hamilton and Vancouver.

boxdad

12-16-2006, 01:58 PM

Id put

Nascar,NHL,then NLL but I would watch
the Xmass JR hockey tournie before all the rest
if they were all on the same day.

tastycakes

01-12-2007, 06:23 AM

Thought this was worth a note since Beckham signed a record North American contract yesterday, 250 million over five years, in what many on here considered in a lesser league than the NLL, MLS. And then of course there are already guys like Landon Donavan and Freddie Adu who make so much more than the highest paid NLLer. Also just heard on TSN that the new Toronto MLS team already has seven thousand season tickets in the bank!!! And they just started selling like a month ago!!! Do the Rock even have that many season ticket holders on the first day of the season. I think yesterday's signing just goes to show how much smaller the NLL is even up against a league like MLS.

chitownlax

01-18-2007, 04:57 PM

You can't leave NASCAR out. It's huge!!

jfunk

01-19-2007, 10:03 AM

I think they really need to do some serious marketing. Most people don't even know it exists. If they could just get some newspaper articles consistently it would be a big step forward.

I hate when they have those guest people in the broadcasting booth during games on sports broadcasts, but if they could somehow get some players in for those stupid things on any MLB, NFL, NBA broadcasts that would be huge too.

Also, as has been mentioned, the web presence is TERRIBLE. The NLL and MLL sites are just awful. Not enough stories and info available and they look amateurish. It's a good sign that ESPN.COM has a lacrosse page, but when it's mostly links to NLL.COM and MLL.COM where the content sucks, it does little to encourage new fans.

bigbadwolf

01-23-2007, 10:29 PM

Can the NLL get too big??

Most of the tickets for games are now affordable for the die-hard fans. From my experience, the loudest fans of sports like hockey and basketball are up at the top of the stadium simply because they can't afford the closer seats and all the "suits" are near the bottom where it's definitely more quiet than the top sections.

So as the NLL gets bigger, it follows that the seats get more expensive, which in turn will cause the die-hard fans to sit at the top. Hopefully, as the sport grows, more fans will come and will still be as loud and passionate about the games as the big crowds in, Denver, Toronto, Buffalo, etc.

Hooligan

01-24-2007, 05:06 AM

The NLL definitely can get too big. Lacrosse isn't a mainstream sport, and won't be for a very long time. If ticket prices out-price themselves out of the price range of the people paying for them, the NLL will die. Thats something they have to watch closely, as the NLL expands through new cities. Sooner or later, the NLL will acquire "dunlop" disease (for those who don't know...dunlop disease is when you get so fat, that your belly "dun lopped" over your belt)