DUKE ARRESTS MADE

[adam]

Ok-
The last thread got out of hand. So let's try this again. Below is the link to the story about Duke arrests.

Rules: No speculation, no foul language, no personal attacks... There will be no warnings -- if you break these rules you will be permanently banned from the Lacrosse Forums.

Link: Two arrested in Duke rape case (http://www.insidelacrosse.com/page.cfm?pagerid=2&news=fdetail&storyid=122927)



By the way -- if anyone does say anything inappropriate, please don't quote it in your response ... because then we have to go back and not just delete the original post, but also your response.

[Farny]

I still don't understand what is fair game in this topic.

[WHEELAX2]

I still don't understand what is fair game in this topic.


just use common sense

[gigo567]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060418/ap_on_sp_co_ne/duke_lacrosse

Another link.

[Canada_Lax]

im happy thats out of the way now. did they still forfeit the whole season, or will they play the least few games??? forgive me, but i dont follow NCAA that much so tell me if they already made that descision

[Farny]

They won't play any more games.

[smooth87]

They didn't forfeit the season. They actually cancelled the season and the games they played already were played under no contest. Playing a game under no contest, just means the games they played and would have played don't count for either team -while a forfeiting the rest of the season would count as wins for the other teams.

[NickMB17]

Wasn't there like a timeline made by the player's lawyers that was supposed to prove they were innocent?

[LaxBear]

Common sense is becoming less and less common.

There are a lot of knuckleheads who only come in here to bait people and stir up trouble. And yet, I am constantly amazed by the number of people who get sucked in and take the bait, making it impossible to have a thoughtful dialogue on any topic.

Keeping your cool when others are losing theirs is what comprises a mature adult.

[truste1]

$400,000 bond? That's insane.

[Brady]

Okay, and now that gcclaxstud has been permanently banned from the Lacrosse Forums, back to the topic. I'll be curious to see what actually comes from these indictments, if anything. I still maintain that if none of these guys end up getting charged/convicted that the entire team should band together and file a class action lawsuit against Nifong for character assassination.

[LaxBear]

You're no fun at all, Adam. I just want you to know that! :chuckle:

[LaxBear]

I would agree with you, Brady, however character assassination suits almost never go anywhere in the courts system. They're regarded as nuisance suits by judges who like to say things like, "You should have thought about your character before you hired the strippers for your party."

[Orange]

You're no fun at all, Adam. I just want you to know that! :chuckle:
You can blame me for that one.

[laxboy452]

a $400,000 thats stupid i feel sorry for those guys

[Brady]

I would agree with you, Brady, however character assassination suits almost never go anywhere in the courts system. They're regarded as nuisance suits by judges who like to say things like, "You should have thought about your character before you hired the strippers for your party."
Which is fine for the 3 who rent that house and hired the stripper--and what excuse do they have for the guys who had NO involvement in that. Like, saaaaaaayyyy those guys who were actually IN New York when this party went on. And this would, by no means, be a frivolous "He called me names and I want money!!!" lawsuit. This is an overzealous DA who hemorrhaged "facts" of the case to the media and paraded (at least) 44 innocent kids past the video cameras and into a police station.

[WHEELAX2]

a $400,000 thats stupid i feel sorry for those guys


that's not how bail really works.. they don't post 400,000.

usually u pay a bondsman a certain percentage of the 400,000 and you certify that you will show up for court on your date..

[K Baz]

Who would think Dog the Bounty hunter would be educational??

[WHEELAX2]

Who would think Dog the Bounty hunter would be educational??


or 4 years of criminal justice?

[tlaing22]

I had to bail my roomate out of jail and it was 10% of the total bond amount.

[TXD2LAX]

Would the parents of these players that have paid thousands upon thousands of dollars to Duke, so they could be on a winning team with a great coach, be able to sue the university for cancelling the season on what is starting to look like false accusations? Yes, most may have received a partial scholorship, but that school is big bucks.

[laxjunkie]

I heard the DA is up for re-election - which would explain why he's pushing so hard on this. He ensured that team was condemmed before evidence has proven one way or the other. As a politician, he's working the community that would be voting.

[roycegracie47]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12366767/

Nifong now plans to go after the 3rd, yet to be identified (at least to us) suspect.

[Wubbie]

I don't see what evidence could be used against these men... DNA didn't match up...

The defense has pictures with time stamps prooving the Stripper came to the party with bruises already on her.

And where is this other stripper? Hiding, because she knows her friend is wrong...

I'm not jumping to conclusions, but this is all I can make out of it(in the most un-biased way possible...)

[WickedDpole21]

comcast's version:
http://www.comcast.net/sports/index.jsp?cat=SPORTS&fn=/2006/04/18/370380.html

[fossil8412]

Why did the other thread that I made get taken off? I made a really good comment on it and I can't remember what it was...

Anyways, the AG is still just trying to make his landmark case... I hope more evidence is released that proves them guilty

[Eclipse]

Didnt one of the players have an alibi? He claims he wasnt even at the party that night.

[KnightsLAXDad]

Another twist - Fox news story that indicates that one of the indicted has timestamped evidence that he was not at the house at the time the alleged incident occurred

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,192162,00.html

[Pitibear]

what am I missing here? I am not trying to speculate, but rather, I am trying to draw logical, common sense deductions...

1. Back a while ago, somebody posited that, in order to get a warrant for dna from a suspect, the district attorney must be able to present dna evidence that the suspect dna would be attempted to match up to...right?

If the "evidence dna" didn't match up to the "suspect dna" from the 46 guys, then the "evidence dna" didn't just vanish, did it?

Whose dna is the "evidence dna?" Can we determine that "that guy" (or gal) is still out there?

...and doesn't the fact that none of the present "suspect dna", including the "arrested guys dna" match the "evidence dna" sorta automatically create a reasonable doubt?

those with four years of pre/law please help here...

2. I am not dismissing the fact that the young women could have been attacked in some manner at the house, and she is presently unable to correctly identify her attacker(s). In her trauma, she may have even mis-reported the facts of the category attack, and this does not mean that she is lying.

However, the real bad guy here then becomes the district attorney, who by all reports, was very quick to create a band wagon for others to jump on. Didn't one of those media articles note that Mr. Nifong had not himself tried a criminal case in several years, and none since he took over his present position? The article noted that it was a curious coincidence that Nifong took this case himself as the prosecutor, in a high-profile situation, close to an election. It looks like he jumped on this horse wihout a saddle, and now he's stuick riding it as far as he thinks he can...although not very well.

It would seem that there really is a case for malicious prosecution here.

3. I really go back to my earlier comment that it is the entire atmosphere sourrounding big-time college sports (perhaps to be renamed "big-head college sports?") that has caused this problem...with at least a plurality of Duke's players getting sucked up into it.

[Jerz48]

Yes, also noted in CNN's coverage. It really seems like the DA set the tone for this whole thing at the start of the case and does not want to back down.

From CNN
Sources close to the investigation said Tuesday that the defense will present evidence -- including ATM receipts -- that neither Seligmann, 20, nor Finnerty, 19, were at the team party at the time the alleged rape took place.

A cab driver allegedly carried one of the young men to an ATM, where a security camera captured his picture, the sources said, and the other man was reportedly at a restaurant.

CNN Story (http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/04/18/duke.rape/index.html)

[Petem0ss]

...It would seem that there really is a case for malicious prosecution here...

I can't readily back this up but I believe officials like the DA are immune to civil suits like malicious prosecution. The accuser does not have deep pockets, but someone like Jesse Jackson could be named if he is advising her. Al Sharpton got popped for about $300,000 for defamation or malicious prosecution by the accused in the Tawana Brawley hoax...perhaps that is why he is hesitant to jump in on this until the DA's case is hitched to something other than the rape kit & the accuser's ID.

But I agree in principal, the cart was put waaaay out in front of the horse a long time ago by "Mark Hurlbert 2.0" there.

/too obscure?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5890789/

[popasmurf]

"No one answered the door at the house, which sits in a cul-de-sac of million-dollar homes." - from the Fox story link above.

I find it interesting how the media continues to point out that these are RICH men. Why the constant need to divide? I am pleased that they are now refering to Durham as a middle-class city instead of a slum like they were at the beginning of this event. They finally discovered the median family income of Durham is only a couple of thousand less than the median family income of the US.

I also saw a promo that CNN is doing a feature story tonight at 8 PM EDT.

[Jerz48]

Poppa good question...well in case you did not catch it the first 100 times when it was reported or again when the AP story earlier today noted that Reade's house was 1.5 miles away from 3 golf clubs, here is CNN shedding some more hard hitting insight on the case.

Rich Kids (http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/04/18/duke.suspects.ap/)

[dukelacrosse26]

man i have to change my name i lost a lot of respect

[popasmurf]

"An education at Chaminade cost $6,670 a year in regular tuition, while students in the elite collegiate program paid more than $23,000 annually." - from link Jerz48 posted.

Sounds like a lot of money, right? Uhhhh....maybe not.
Average spending per pupil public HS (2003-2004 Source: US Census Bureau)
1. New Jersey ... $12,981
2. New York ... $12,930

What about the $23,000? Did the reporter consider....
"In the senior year, qualified students are able to take a full year of college courses at Chaminade taught by professors of Long Island University. These seniors graduate with 37 bona-fide college credits -- an entire college freshman year -- already completed."

OK. Now I know this has nothing to do with rape charges. However, it took me literally less than five minutes to find this information. Reporters just throw facts out there with no context or consideration for what they mean. Other reporters just follow along and say this stuff. Best case: reporters are lazy. Worst case: a conscious effort to divide for who knows what reasons.

[swordsman]

I would bet on them being acquitted as DNA, pictures and the timeline is in there favor.

[OlacrosseP]

It's just unfortunate for Duke, whatever the turn out is. Because no matter what the verdict is, they'll still be looked down upon. I'm siding with the players but still, they'll be scolded for having a party at all and underage drinking. What's really unfortunate is that some people are trying to turn this into a racial issue which complicates the situation three-fold. All this happening when lacrosse is beginning to really take off... :whyme:

[Led_Zeppelin]

All the reporters wagging their finger the Duke lacrosse team for having a party with *gasp* underage drinking, are hypocrites. They know they had their share of wild parties at college.

[raykessler]

i dont understand how they were arrested, it seems like they have no evidence, but they must if they took the two into custody. Also Greare (sp) is thinking of transferring from Duke.... bad news.

[pclax41]

has anyone thought or mentioned how this is not such a bad thing for the future in lacrosse?

How much lacrosse do you see on TV? just the games.. maybe a commercial or two with a stick in the backround or a goal.. sometimes you get movies like american pie where lacrosse you see them playing for like 10 mins.. and then that one kid left a game to go sing, ANYWAY...

some1 once said... bad publicity it better than no publicity

so even though this is a negative thing.. think about how many people are hearing about lacrosse? seeing it for the first time..the 30 sec clip of the guys practicing and then going on to find out more about lacrosse
its on the news like everyday.. this story is exposure..
correct me if im wrong but exposure leads to growth right?

[ColtsLax]

With the way this case is unfolding, it seems more and more like a Witch Hunt, especially now that the black leaders(Jackson, Sharpton) are starting to weigh in. If the one kid can prove that he wasnt there, then that really makes this guy look bad. Either way, both these kids' futures are ruined.

[WoodDuck14]

Man, what i hate the most is how loud the DA made this. if he wanted justice and wasn't worried about being reelected he would have made an effort to do this quietly.

[mcourtne]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/18/opinion/courtwatch/main1508534.shtml

This is a very good story. The story has more than the video.

[mcourtne]

Man, what i hate the most is how loud the DA made this. if he wanted justice and wasn't worried about being reelected he would have made an effort to do this quietly.

I don't think you can blame the DA for the amount of media coverage. That would be a symptom of 24 hr news channels need to fill peoples apatite for a good story.

Also, the Defense teams have been very vocal (that being part of their jobs). The DA probably has not told the media everything that he knows about this case. He will now show all of it to the grand jury and they will decide if there is reason to believe that the boys committed a crime and if so, the thing will then go to trial.

[gigo567]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/18/opinion/courtwatch/main1508534.shtml

This is a very good story. The story has more than the video.
Great article. The writer doesn't go pointing his finger at one side, he just states the facts of what happenned.

And I don't think she would smile after getting raped.

[Pitibear]

Somebody should hit the email button on this page to Nancy Grace...everything suggested NOT to do by reporter Cohen, Ms. Grace self-appointed herself as the one to do tonight on national television...sheesh...

[Jesse]

I woke up at 5am this morning ready to walk down to the train station for Weights at school this morning. And as I do I turn Good Morning America on (Why they have it on an Australian TV channel I have no idea. And its better than all those preacher guy shows). As Soon as they said 'Breaking News' and they words Duke and Lacrosse I ran around the house waking my brother up....
That was my excitement for the day... And now im off to pick up my new Speed Burns and my New Phone.

[pclax41]

If the guys are found innocent they should freaken sue for embarassment and false accusations.. seriously

[newbielaxer]

man oh man i dont believe this these two guys are in a lot of trouble even if they are aquitted they will face a life of stygma.
but i thought all these guys (or most of them volunteered their dna) and were proven to not have been involved. pretty strong evidence to release them from charges.

so why have they been arrested??
sorry but maybe i am missing something here (probably)
but it does not seem right that they be arrested?????

[Brady]

man i have to change my name i lost a lot of respect
For who? What has been proven to have happened to make you lose "a lot of respect"? I can see if your screen name was Nifong 26.

[WHEELAX2]

"An education at Chaminade cost $6,670 a year in regular tuition, while students in the elite collegiate program paid more than $23,000 annually." - from link Jerz48 posted.

Sounds like a lot of money, right? Uhhhh....maybe not.
Average spending per pupil public HS (2003-2004 Source: US Census Bureau)
1. New Jersey ... $12,981
2. New York ... $12,930

What about the $23,000? Did the reporter consider....
"In the senior year, qualified students are able to take a full year of college courses at Chaminade taught by professors of Long Island University. These seniors graduate with 37 bona-fide college credits -- an entire college freshman year -- already completed."

OK. Now I know this has nothing to do with rape charges. However, it took me literally less than five minutes to find this information. Reporters just throw facts out there with no context or consideration for what they mean. Other reporters just follow along and say this stuff. Best case: reporters are lazy. Worst case: a conscious effort to divide for who knows what reasons.


have you thought about emailing this reporter?

[bethsc]

I can't readily back this up but I believe officials like the DA are immune to civil suits like malicious prosecution. The accuser does not have deep pockets, but someone like Jesse Jackson could be named if he is advising her. Al Sharpton got popped for about $300,000 for defamation or malicious prosecution by the accused in the Tawana Brawley hoax...perhaps that is why he is hesitant to jump in on this until the DA's case is hitched to something other than the rape kit & the accuser's ID.

But I agree in principal, the cart was put waaaay out in front of the horse a long time ago by "Mark Hurlbert 2.0" there.

/too obscure?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5890789/
Thanks for reminding everybody about the Tawana Brawley case, Sharpton's buddies even went as far as saying the Westchester D.A> at the time also had sex with her, and i ttook him over 3 yrs. of legal trials to get her attorney disbarred but the DA was finally vinidicated. Likewise it ended up being a fabricated story, Tawana got caught being out after hours and she concoted the story just so she could get out of trouble with her parents who had her on curfew. Likewise, let us not forget Bill Cosby who rushed to judgement and Spike Lee. For all you young ones out there, read the novels,
"The Oxbow Incident." This may have been a error in judgement by someone, but I truly believe at the end of the day, the Durham DA will be censured by NC Attorney General and he will go back to his previous job of prosecuting jaywalkers and shoplifters.

[Brady]

I truly believe at the end of the day, the Durham DA will be censured by NC Attorney General and he will go back to his previous job of prosecuting jaywalkers and shoplifters.I really hope that you're right. And not just from a perspective of what he's done to the lacrosse community. Even if the allegations turned out to be 100% true and the guilty are prosecuted--the DA still totally mishandled this case and an entire group of individuals for personal gain. If he can get his butt handed to him maybe it would serve as a bit of a warning to other would-be grandstanders. . .

[SUlaxjunkie]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,192206,00.html

VERY interesting op ed on how Nifong has screwed up this case and violated many many laws in doing so...

[faceitoff]

I'm glad we Americans have a system of fair trial.
I'm also glad our DA didn't alter the reputation of lacrosse players.

[WHEELAX2]

does anyone agree that someone had to be charged??

if no one was charged, do you think there might be an even crazier situation in Durham??

I think so... and you can blame the DA for stirring this race "riot"



it's just a huge mess that has gotten way, way, way out of hand...

[WHEELAX2]

Funny thing is one of the guys who was charged visited an ATM during the time that the stripper was "raped". Not only did he save his ATM receipt, but ATMs have video cameras built in to prevent people using someone else's card and to catch robberies on camera. So this guy not only has his receipt but has him on camera at the same time that she was raped. Curious...huh?


yeah.. i'd love to see the evidence that "connected" him to the crime..

oh yeah.. picture identification..


Damn!! I have a great theory, but I just don't think I could let it out..

RULES!!

[Bobeo]

I just feel bad for the kids involved in this whole situation. When they are found innocent (I say when because there is no doubt in MY mind that nothing happened) they are still going to be stigmatized and known as the guys who raped that woman.

I dont understand how this can happen. How a DA can screw case up so badly. I understad that he needs to prosecute cases that HE feels need to be prosecuted but he did this in the wrong way.

He openly told the public what evidense he was counting on. Then it didnt show up- he still says he has evidence to prosecute? How can a grand jury say that there is more chance than not that these boys did in fact commit a crime? All there is is a witness identification. That will NEVER hold up in court. EVER!

It just seems so obvious that this a cheap ploy to get reelected. It sickens me that somone so educated can act so stupid.

[WHEELAX2]

I'm just so angry... I thought when this first came out that maybe, just maybe, I was on the side of the players because of a lacrosse bias I might have, but thinking about all of the spin, and race issues, and people profiting off this story, I am just infuriated.

I don't see how ruining the lives of 60+ people is worth it..

I know that because of "juicy" stories like these, millions of hits to otherwise dead websites are being racked up, people are watching the news, buying newspapers, watching late night spin, and buying sports illustrated,,, but is it all worth it?? (advertisers love this.. they are pouring money into these sources of media)

is all the spin the authors of the stories really worth the pain it is causing people??

is it worth it to stir up the race debate??

is it worth risking rioting??

is it worth risking the jobs and reputations of community leaders?


Basically, it's like this... because of all the attention this story has gotten, because the stories have been twisted and turned, because it's black vs. white, rich vs. poor, privelege vs. damned, community vs. campus, etc..
you are forced to pick a side.. either they did it, or she lied.. bottom line.. there's no in between.. because you probably fall into one category or another.. you might be poor, white, black, rich, on scholarship, paying your way through school, working a crappy job, a community leader, a lacrosse player, a stripper, an elected official, a school administrator, a mother, a father, a lawyer, a neighbor of an institution, a townie, etcc....etc..... this story is just too perfect.. every person has some sort of connection to this.. and that's what the media has eaten up.. YOU can relate.. which =money for them..

because this case has been tried in the media... since people have their minds made up, no matter what happens, no matter the new evidence, confessions, stories, etc.. people are already convinced one way or another.. there's no turning back.... I thought we learned our lesson before the L.A. riots about convicting people in the media.. look what happened there...

this is truly a sad time to be a human in our country..

I think it's time that people got together and stand up for the human race, instead of taking sides and waving a flag for what they are convinced is the truth, when all we really know about this case is what we hear..

[WHEELAX2]

yeah.. look at all the educated people on reality shows..

people go to any length for their 5 minutes of fame.

and for what????

let's think here...

how do media outlets keep the lights on?? how do they pay their employees?? HMM... well that takes money.. which comes from advertisers.. what criteria do adversiters use when selecting who they advertise with?? well basically, if you have a lot of people watching, we'll advertise with you..

Juicy story + media spin = a lot of people tuning in

spun stories + people watching = mad cash for media

why would people who are "smart" and educated do something like this??

money..

[Bobeo]

Im not talking about the media. Im talking aabout the DA. An elected official doing something like this tio be reelected makes me sick. I hold our public officials to a higher standard I guess.

[WHEELAX2]

Im not talking about the media. Im talking aabout the DA. An elected official doing something like this tio be reelected makes me sick. I hold our public officials to a higher standard I guess.


in theory, yes we should hold them to a higher standard, but is it fair to hold someone to lower standards?

[OldGoalie]

With the way this case is unfolding, it seems more and more like a Witch Hunt, especially now that the black leaders(Jackson, Sharpton) are starting to weigh in. If the one kid can prove that he wasnt there, then that really makes this guy look bad. Either way, both these kids' futures are ruined.

AFAIK, Sharpton has so far stayed out of the fray. He got burned on Tawana Brawley way back when - he ended up getting sued for a few hundred k on that one. But Jackson has been all over it, of course, offering to pay for the accuser's tuition, regardless of whether she fabricated the story or not.

[soxfan]

For you guys on the west coast, they are going to show the pictures on inside edition on channel 9 in a coupple minutes...

[ColtsLax]

Wheels, your a Criminal Justice major right? from a purely legal standpoint, would you say there is resonable doubt in this case?

it seems like, espeically in seligmans case, that they just picked two kids.

[OlacrosseP]

has anyone thought or mentioned how this is not such a bad thing for the future in lacrosse?

How much lacrosse do you see on TV? just the games.. maybe a commercial or two with a stick in the backround or a goal.. sometimes you get movies like american pie where lacrosse you see them playing for like 10 mins.. and then that one kid left a game to go sing, ANYWAY...

some1 once said... bad publicity it better than no publicity

so even though this is a negative thing.. think about how many people are hearing about lacrosse? seeing it for the first time..the 30 sec clip of the guys practicing and then going on to find out more about lacrosse
its on the news like everyday.. this story is exposure..
correct me if im wrong but exposure leads to growth right?

Are you sure? Because that'll certainly discourage parents to allow their kids to play lacrosse, especially black parents. In case you haven't noticed there is a new wave of parenting called "helicopter parents". They hover over their kids and make decisions for them. So in addition to people saying lacrosse is too violent, now some of the stereotypes are seemingly being proved correct, (such as, all laxers do is drink) so bad publicity is better than none?
Maybe it'll get the name of lax to everyone but, in a good light? No....

[WHEELAX2]

Wheels, your a Criminal Justice major right? from a purely legal standpoint, would you say there is resonable doubt in this case?

it seems like, espeically in seligmans case, that they just picked two kids.


there's plenty of evidence that can be considered reasonable doubt. actually there's overwhelming evidence... it's just a matter of how it's presented relative to how the DA presents his case, and whether or not the jury is convinced.. I would hope that any reasonable person could determine that a lot of things don't add up in this case, and that they themselves have doubt in their head that is reasonable (or rational)..

actually, I have a Bachelor's Degree in CJ..

[Lax-A-Tive]

This is for anyone out there who went to Duke. Why can't the administration show some balls and stand behind these kids? The Delbarton School is standing behind Seligmann. Now Duke suspends the two even with all the evidence (especially Seligmann) that would lead you to believe they are innocent. Duke Law School should stop teaching constitutional law (maybe they don't believe in due process), or better yet, they should require that the dean take the course. He must be some weenie that has a thing against athletes.

[smooth87]

Well I think the only soild evidence the DA could have would be stripper(s) testimony. That's if the timeline and other evidence don't hold up. I think with all of this national coverage, the stripper might get cold feet and not want to testify or even make a public statement.

[gctales]

According to the report I heard on CNN, the dean said that the school's policy (constitution or by-laws, etc) state that any student arrested for a felony is to be suspended, the pending outcome of any subsequent trial.

He then said that he had no choice to follow the schools policy and went on to "remind" everyone that they are innocent till proven guilty.

I think they are still allowed to continue to live on campus (like they actually might want to given the general uber-PC environment that has nightly drum protests outside the house and their dorms)..

On the other hand, I finally saw on the news a couple of pics and video showing the students from the dorm where they live hanging support banners for them and the LAX team and "innocent till proven guilty" and other similar supportive slogans.. so it's nice to see that not all of Duke has gon super PC and pre-convicted them.

[GrymesGoalie]

It's unfortunate that this entire ordeal had to happen. I hope justice was correctly served and that the lacrosse community will be able to bounce back from this hard blow to the reputation of the sport. I'm not saying that all lacrosse players are evil now or that the Duke lacrosse players are evil (because nobody knows what really happened except for them...), but people are likely to end up making assumptions for some time to come.