Failure to advance question...need help

[CoachRob]

NFHS:

A2 is clearing it from his defensive and and passes it to A3. A3 misses it, and B1 hits it, knocking it out of bounds but never having gained possession of the loose ball. The count was at 15 when it went out of bounds. When team A restarts it in their defensive half, does the 20 second count restart from 15, or do they get a new 20 seconds? I think it starts at 15 but another ref said it was a new count. What do you think?

Also, can you help me out by listing the things that start a new 20 count?
I'll start it out:

1. Team A calls a time out before the 20 seconds expire.

Other items would be appreciated.

[Snake~eyes]

Twenty, you always have to start with a 20 second count. There is no way to pause the timer (this goes for two of the most popular timers), there is no way to run it down. It only starts at 20 (and 100 for timeouts).

I can list only three ways the count stops (I think,... :gulp:)
(a) Other team gains posession
(b) The ball or the player with posession touch the midfield line or offensive half.
(c) Any whistle (or horn to end the period).

[CoachRob]

So you're saying the whistle for the OOB starts a new 20 second count? That doesn't seem right since team B never gained possession, and by pressuring team A to make an incomplete pass, team B was making an effective, and time consuming, ride. Giving a new 20 count to team A discounts their effort.

[LaxRef]

So you're saying the whistle for the OOB starts a new 20 second count? That doesn't seem right since team B never gained possession, and by pressuring team A to make an incomplete pass, team B was making an effective, and time consuming, ride. Giving a new 20 count to team A discounts their effort.

Then you need to design a new timer!

Seriously, though, that's how it is in lacrosse. You always start with a new count, either 10 or 20, when the whistle blows to start play. There simply are no "He'll have 2 seconds to shoot once they inbound the ball" situations in lacrosse.

BTW, you aren't doing your 20-second clears by hand, are you? You're supposed to be using a timer.

The one that's a little tricky: A1 has possession in the attack area and shoots; his shot hits the crossbar and ricochets across midfield and OOB. When play restarts, what count is in effect? (No, you don't need to know any other info.)

[Snake~eyes]

The one that's a little tricky: A1 has possession in the attack area and shoots; his shot hits the crossbar and ricochets across midfield and OOB. When play restarts, what count is in effect? (No, you don't need to know any other info.)
Okay show me the case play, I don't believe it.

[LaxRef]

Okay show me the case play, I don't believe it.

There's no case play in the NFHS book on this, or any other 20-second clear counts. However, there was an NCAA bulletin on this that, I think, makes the result clear.

[CoachRob]

Then you need to design a new timer!
So because we have bad timers, we don't give team B any credit for taking 15 seconds off the clear? And team A gets a whole new 20 seconds, even though team B never gained possession, but did force an errant pass?

This sounds bogus to me. I need to see the rule that states a new count is started. Can somebody cite this rule?

In my scenario, had B1 knocked the ball back towards the field of play (instead of OOB), then the count would have continued and in all likelihood, team A would have not crossed the midline by 20. So B1 has bad luck and knocks it OOB and team A gets a new 20 seconds? I don't like this ONE bit, I'll have you know.

Really, cite me the rule. This makes no sense to me at all. And I don't buy the fact that our timers cannot be stopped as the reason for this. If this is the case, then we need to go back to hand counts.

If team B is able to delay team A's clear, then knocking it OOB should not give team A a new 20 count. It simply shouldn't be, timer or no timer. :hot:

[Snake~eyes]

I can't find my 2006 rulebook, all I have is 2005 and after opening it I remembered that that was a rulechange this year. OOPS. So I can't help you until I find the new one.

[CoachRob]

I can't find my 2006 rulebook, all I have is 2005 and after opening it I remembered that that was a rulechange this year. OOPS. So I can't help you until I find the new one.

I;ll be waiting for the rule. I just can't believe it's a new 20 count after team B forced a bad pass.

[gfink]

Why is it a new twenty versus a continued twenty? Because it just doesn't matter that much. You are trying to over officiate the game. K.I.S.S. Every out of bounds starts a new possession. In over thirty contest so far this year, i have only seen that scenario play out once. Not a real big battle to have to fight. Also, a play-on resets the twenty count. And i am at work, so i don't have the rulebook handy.

[CoachRob]

Why is it a new twenty versus a continued twenty? Because it just doesn't matter that much. You are trying to over officiate the game. K.I.S.S. Every out of bounds starts a new possession. In over thirty contest so far this year, i have only seen that scenario play out once. Not a real big battle to have to fight. Also, a play-on resets the twenty count.

But is there a rule that states it is a new count? Sometimes we do things because it seems right, but is not found in the rules. Sort of like the 3 pipe rule, or that GK's don't serve their own penalty time. I'm just mystified that I've read the rules so many times and yet never come across this particular rule.

[eme]

Coach Rob.
You are correct. Our practice of awarding a new 10 or 20-second count upon any restart is indefensible in the current 2006 NFHS Rulebook. The situation simply isn't mentioned...so...into that void we have inserted "what we do in NCAA."

Back two years ago when NCAA TOs could be granted in the offensive half, there was this in the 2004 NCAA book:

page 43AR 60 TO called by Team A in possession in the offensive zone between the center line and the attack area with 3 seconds left on the 10-sec. count. Does Team A get a new 10-sec. count? Ruling: Yes.

One could, I suppose, take a VERY liberal reading/interpretation of page 30 NFHS 4_14 that begins: "Upon gaining possession of the ball inside the defensive ...a team must advance...within 20 seconds." Argue that a re-start is a gaining of possession....

that's the best I can do.

[CoachRob]

Twenty, you always have to start with a 20 second count. There is no way to pause the timer (this goes for two of the most popular timers), there is no way to run it down. It only starts at 20 (and 100 for timeouts).

I can list only three ways the count stops (I think,... :gulp:)
(a) Other team gains posession.
(b) The ball or the player with posession touches the midfield line or offensive half.
(c) Any whistle (or horn to end the period).

What about a TO called by the team in possession? Wouldn't that be a fourth???

[laxfan25]

CoachRob,
I will also vouch for the new 20-second count on an OOB, TO or play-on. This was discussed at the convention in Philly as well.

[WHEELAX2]

I understand the functionality of the timer, etc... but it can offer a distinct unfair advantage to the team trying to advance the ball... in basketball for example, the count is not reset, correct?

[laxfan25]

The one that's a little tricky: A1 has possession in the attack area and shoots; his shot hits the crossbar and ricochets across midfield and OOB. When play restarts, what count is in effect? (No, you don't need to know any other info.)
Since the ball was last possessed in the attack area, it would be a new 10 second count. If the ball was in the offensive half, but not in the attack area and this occurs, it's a new 20 second count.

[LaxRef]

What about a TO called by the team in possession? Wouldn't that be a fourth???

Look at condition (c); wouldn't there be a whistle with the timeout? :thinking:

[LaxRef]

But is there a rule that states it is a new count? Sometimes we do things because it seems right, but is not found in the rules. Sort of like the 3 pipe rule, or that GK's don't serve their own penalty time. I'm just mystified that I've read the rules so many times and yet never come across this particular rule.

As eme points out, there's a vague rule that doesn't cover all of the cases possible, so we're doing what we do in NCAA. And there we have rules to justify it.

[LaxRef]

So because we have bad timers, we don't give team B any credit for taking 15 seconds off the clear? And team A gets a whole new 20 seconds, even though team B never gained possession, but did force an errant pass?

This sounds bogus to me. I need to see the rule that states a new count is started. Can somebody cite this rule?

In my scenario, had B1 knocked the ball back towards the field of play (instead of OOB), then the count would have continued and in all likelihood, team A would have not crossed the midline by 20. So B1 has bad luck and knocks it OOB and team A gets a new 20 seconds? I don't like this ONE bit, I'll have you know.

Really, cite me the rule. This makes no sense to me at all. And I don't buy the fact that our timers cannot be stopped as the reason for this. If this is the case, then we need to go back to hand counts.

If we go to hand counts, they'd better change the rule to the "20-40 second clear count," because that's what we'd have. Most guys can't count anywhere near accurately.

In addition, the 20 seconds to clear is so long that I see it as more of a "keep the game moving" rule; I don't think I've seen one case where it took a team 20 seconds to clear unless they dropped the ball and couldn't pick it back up.

Feel free to lobby for a rule change with visible 20-second clear clocks that can be stopped and restarted, but it will only pass if you can send them the bill for it.

BTW, you're restarting your 10-counts on a stoppage of play, aren't you? Well, why not your 20's as well?

[LaxRef]

I understand the functionality of the timer, etc... but it can offer a distinct unfair advantage to the team trying to advance the ball... in basketball for example, the count is not reset, correct?

I can't see why it is an unfair advantage if the rule applies equally for both teams. It's just the rule. It certainly advantages the team currently clearing, but both teams have chances to be the clearing team.

The rules in basketball are different, and again apply equally to both teams. They also have expensive shot clocks and a dedicated shot-clock operator. These things are needless complication for our game, I think. Everyone realized when they made this rule change that it would take the ride out of the game (very few teams can't clear the ball easily in 20 seconds, but with the old 10-second to the DCL count and no re-entry a good riding team could force some turnovers).

[WHEELAX2]

I can't see why it is an unfair advantage if the rule applies equally for both teams. It's just the rule. It certainly advantages the team currently clearing, but both teams have chances to be the clearing team.

The rules in basketball are different, and again apply equally to both teams. They also have expensive shot clocks and a dedicated shot-clock operator. These things are needless complication for our game, I think. Everyone realized when they made this rule change that it would take the ride out of the game (very few teams can't clear the ball easily in 20 seconds, but with the old 10-second to the DCL count and no re-entry a good riding team could force some turnovers).


ok.. but in basketball, they do not rely on the shot clock for the 10 second count

[LaxRef]

ok.. but in basketball, they do not rely on the shot clock for the 10 second count

Do they re-set the count on a whistle in basketball for the backcourt count? I don't know.

I did get the impression that in games where there is a visible shot clock that they use it for the 10-count, but I could be wrong.


But, in any case, it's apples an oranges. There could well be someone on a basketball board arguing that in NCAA lacrosse you can only call a live ball TO in the attack area, so in basketball you should only be able to do it in the paint.

[WHEELAX2]

Do they re-set the count on a whistle in basketball for the backcourt count? I don't know.

I did get the impression that in games where there is a visible shot clock that they use it for the 10-count, but I could be wrong.


But, in any case, it's apples an oranges. There could well be someone on a basketball board arguing that in NCAA lacrosse you can only call a live ball TO in the attack area, so in basketball you should only be able to do it in the paint.


well, isn't the concept the same?? advancing the ball over the other half of the playing surface in a set amount of time??

shouldn't the defense be rewarded for knocking the ball out of bounds..?? I would consider that a successful ride.. and shouldn't the offense be "penalized" for not advancing the ball in the allotted time??

[Snake~eyes]

Do they re-set the count on a whistle in basketball for the backcourt count? I don't know.

I did get the impression that in games where there is a visible shot clock that they use it for the 10-count, but I could be wrong.


But, in any case, it's apples an oranges. There could well be someone on a basketball board arguing that in NCAA lacrosse you can only call a live ball TO in the attack area, so in basketball you should only be able to do it in the paint.
In basketball the 10-second count always restarts after a whistle, the shotclock would not though.

There has been much discussion about the shotclock being used for 10-seconds. Many times the shotclock cannot be used for 10-seconds because the count and the shotclock don't start at the same time. Also officials should use a visual count, they should definitely check to make sure that 10 seconds have come off the shotclock before calling the violation.

[LaxRef]

well, isn't the concept the same?? advancing the ball over the other half of the playing surface in a set amount of time??

The two concepts in my example are the same, too, but I haven't heard any basketball fans arguing that TOs should only be allowed when the ball is in the paint.

When I say "apples and oranges," I mean that you can't say, "Well, they do it this way in this sport, so they should do it the same way in that sport." If that made sense, an equally valid logical argument would be to say that basketball should reset the shotclock on every whistle because they reset the counts in lacrosse!

And, in fact, according so snake~eyes, the 10-second backcourt count does reset on a whistle.

shouldn't the defense be rewarded for knocking the ball out of bounds..?? I would consider that a successful ride.. and shouldn't the offense be "penalized" for not advancing the ball in the allotted time??

Not if the rules say otherwise.

We don't officiate by looking to see who we should "reward." We officiate by doing what the rules say (or, in the case of vague NFHS rules, what the NCAA rules say). Now, if you want to lobby to get the rule changed, that's fair. I just think if you get it changed you should have to buy us all new timers! :chuckle:

[Longpole5435]

I can't see why it is an unfair advantage if the rule applies equally for both teams. It's just the rule. It certainly advantages the team currently clearing, but both teams have chances to be the clearing team.

The rules in basketball are different, and again apply equally to both teams. They also have expensive shot clocks and a dedicated shot-clock operator. These things are needless complication for our game, I think. Everyone realized when they made this rule change that it would take the ride out of the game (very few teams can't clear the ball easily in 20 seconds, but with the old 10-second to the DCL count and no re-entry a good riding team could force some turnovers).
You'd be suprised how many HS teams can't clear in 20 seconds. Failure to Advance has been called quite a few times in our first three games. And turnovers are still forced, too few of my fellow poles can handle the rock :chuckle:

[CoachRob]

I just think if you get it changed you should have to buy us all new timers! :chuckle:

Ummm... they're called ARMS!!! The same as we do 10 second counts. I just don't think the rule is fair, that's all I'm saying. Force them to lose control OOB, and they shoud NOT get a new 20. That's simply my point.

[LaxRef]

You'd be suprised how many HS teams can't clear in 20 seconds. Failure to Advance has been called quite a few times in our first three games. And turnovers are still forced, too few of my fellow poles can handle the rock :chuckle:

Yeah, but are they failing to clear because they put the ball on the ground or because it takes more than 20 seconds for them to run/pass the ball past midfield? I'd be amazed if there were a lot of "failure to advance" calls without the ball hitting the ground.

[LaxRef]

Ummm... they're called ARMS!!! The same as we do 10 second counts. I just don't think the rule is fair, that's all I'm saying. Force them to lose control OOB, and they shoud NOT get a new 20. That's simply my point.

We don't do 10-second counts. We do 10-25 second counts. There are few officials who are close to 10-seconds on their counts. Time yourself; it's almost impossible to count too fast! I'll trade the restarting of the count on all whistles for the accuracy of the timer any day.

What's the biggest complaint of coaches about officials? Lack of consistency. At least the timer gives us some consistency.

BTW, didn't team B knock the ball out of bounds? Well, if they don't want a new 20 for A, maybe they should keep it in bounds, since they should know the that team A will get a new 20 if they knock the ball out. Personally, I don't see knocking the ball out as being such a great play. It's like when some idiot basketball center blocks the ball into the stands; sure, you stopped the shot, but the other team gets the ball back. Try blocking the ball and controlling it instead.

[DanHS]

Glad for the above discussion.

In a game yesterday, A1 was having a hard time clearing the ball - he is very tired and resentful of the scrutiny he receives from all of the officials. The twenty second period expires and the trail blows his whistle to stop play just as B1 slashes A1. In this real game situation the slash occurred after the official (me) heard the timer buzzer.

My partner thought I had killed a flag down/slow whistle prematurely as we both had the slash but the slash was actually a dead ball slash. I think we had an agreement that a slash could be called in a dead ball situation. I think we should have B1 serving the 1-miute with a new 20 second count from the site of the foul - at least that’s how we played it.

If the slash occurred before the 20 seconds what should happen. I don’t see anything in above that says the slash is anything other that a flag down/slow whistle. Would the 20-seconds stop the flag down with A1 retaining possession?

[Snake~eyes]

If the slash occured then the 20 second went off you'd kill the play, just like any other flag down. You would then report the penalty and give the ball to team A. But you would nott start with a new 20-second count in your situation, you should have a free clear!

[3rdPersonPlural]

Dan,

A fdsw effectively stops the count at the point in time of the flag/infraction. Think of the flag as a virtual whistle.

So the penalty stands, and A gets the ball at the midfield X one man up.

[3rdPersonPlural]

Snake types faster than I do......

[DanHS]

Thanks - from what I see above the sequence - foul/20 second expiration - is irrelevant. The play is immediately dead - penalty accessed - free clear.

By extension - does this apply to any technical or personal that could be called in this situation?

[LaxRef]

Dan,

A fdsw effectively stops the count at the point in time of the flag/infraction. Think of the flag as a virtual whistle.

So the penalty stands, and A gets the ball at the midfield X one man up.

Well, I think I agree with your ruling, but not with your explanation. For example, if B1 slashes A1 in the defensive end (FDSW), A1 keeps the ball, and the 20-second timer goes off 1 second later, we have a foul by team A (failure to advance) and we blow the whistle and kill the play; the slash does not reset the 20-second count. However, team A would get the ball on a free clear and B1 would serve 1 minute.

[LaxRef]

Thanks - from what I see above the sequence - foul/20 second expiration - is irrelevant. The play is immediately dead - penalty accessed - free clear.

By extension - does this apply to any technical or personal that could be called in this situation?

Any foul by the offense, personal or technical, kills the FDSW. However, if the foul is personal then you'll need to aujudicate the trickier clauses of the simultaneous fouls rule (if the foul is technical it just kills the play and nothing else needs to be done).

[3rdPersonPlural]

Thanks - from what I see above the sequence - foul/20 second expiration - is irrelevant. The play is immediately dead - penalty accessed - free clear.

The flag down gives a team on offense an opportunity to continue with their play and not be interrupted by a whistle caused by a player on the other team. One of the events that ends the fdsw is a foul committed by the team with the ball. FTA is a technical foul, so you blow the play dead, wave off the technical (apparently the interrupted play is penalty enough) and set up for a man down start.

By extension - does this apply to any technical or personal that could be called in this situation?

Yes, but a personal foul can not be waved off. Rule 7-6 4 says to award the ball to the team in possession, or entitled to possession, at the time of the flag or whistle. If a personal foul is committed by the team with the ball, an immediate whistle is due, and they keep possession unless yhey are serving more minutes.

[Longpole5435]

Yeah, but are they failing to clear because they put the ball on the ground or because it takes more than 20 seconds for them to run/pass the ball past midfield? I'd be amazed if there were a lot of "failure to advance" calls without the ball hitting the ground.

True, usually it does involve dropping passes, not necessarily because of riding. But you SHOULD reward a team if they can go pass pass pass and out, without droppin passes. Nothing wrong with that.

[LaxRef]

True, usually it does involve dropping passes, not necessarily because of riding. But you SHOULD reward a team if they can go pass pass pass and out, without droppin passes. Nothing wrong with that.

My point was that with the old rules, a hard-riding team could force turnovers by playing tight D for 10 seconds behind the DCL or by trapping when the ball came just over the DCL. But it's too hard to cover everything for 20 seconds against a team that can cradle and pass, especially considering that the clearing team has an extra man.

The teams that couldn't pass or cradle had trouble clearing under the old rules, just like they do now. But how many "successful" rides occur under the new rules that aren't due to the ineptness of the clearing team? I'd bet nowhere near as many as there used to be, especially at the college level.