ABC news validates duke aliby

[phoenix-32]

ABC news has been investigating the timetable for alledged rape, and found that Seligmann would have had to rape the women in a time span of less than 20 minutes after she was seen in pictures dancing with the other stripper. Shes previously claimed that she left the house in an arguement and then returned before the rape occured, which i assume took more a substancial amount of time, there by narrowing the time span the rape could have occured in even more.

check out the article:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=1858806&page=1

[MNM19]

wow, that seems to be a VERY good alibi

[phoenix-32]

Yea, and considering Seligmann is someone she identified with 100% certainty, its gunna be argued that if she was wrong about one guy, she could be wrong about both... if any of the jury members actually believe this chick in the first place.

proving this case beyond a resonable doubt is gunna be near impossible. The DA is gunna be made to look like a clown.

[Se7eN]

The DA is put in a very interesting situation. I heard that its election year for them, so its not like the DA can drop a case of this magnitude. Initial DNA results coming back negative was huge. Duke is also between a rock and a hard place, because Duke already canned the season and the head coach left, showing lack of faith in his players. I honestly feel that either way this case goes, Duke will be shamed, and if the girl wasnt actually raped, atleast she got her 15 minutes of fame. I still feel thats what this is all about. Bad decisions by the duke players lead to dumb things.

[laxmiddie8]

and if shes wrong about both guys wrong and the DNA tests were negative then maybe the jury will realize there innocent(wich hopfully they are)

[BTlaxripper]

The lack of DNA evidence is reasonable doubt enough.

[Mrmccoolsatool]

Because of this and the Dna results, i cant see anyone becoming guilty. Unless the Da has some very good evidence.

[Farny]

Duke is also between a rock and a hard place, because Duke already canned the season and the head coach left, showing lack of faith in his players.

You still need to realize that they did not cancel the season because of the rape charges and the guiltiness of the players. A party with underage drinking and a stripper is enough to cancel a season, which it did.

[laxsavage]

You can't say that the coach doesn't have faith in his players. If there's a party at the "lacrosse house" with strippers and underage drinking at any school, which is probably more than we'd all like to admit, I wouldn't want to be associated with the program either. On the other hand, all the "evidence" in the case seems very shaky, and its sad that the whole lacrosse community has to put up with all this garbage.

[tiplax]

Because of this and the Dna results, i cant see anyone becoming guilty. Unless the Da has some very good evidence.
it would have to very good evidence to convice the jury after that article

[Formerlaxdemon]

I really hope that the two players are found innocent, but even if they are the media and all those protesters in the area have already labelled the men as "rapists" and will haunt them and hunt them the remainder of their days. It is sad that the people of Duke and Durham have been so reactionary. I cannot stand that they have made this so "racial" and that obviously all lacrosse players must be these rich, white kids. It sickens me to hear them attack our sport and some fellow players because they may or may not be fortunate in where and how they were raised. So a person is rich, so what? We are NOT living in 18th century France so why are people acting like they are going to storm the Bastille??? I simply can't understand why people are getting so bent out of shape over this. I want to see justice carried out and NOT a judge and jury cowtowing to mob rule and the cries of Al Sharpton and his protesters who "know" those guys must be guilty. This case deserves to be tried in the courtroom and NOT on television.

[OldGoalie]

because Duke already canned the season and the head coach left, showing lack of faith in his players.

Pressler was forced to resign because he had been warned several times by the AD, including the year before. He was told to "get the team in line" last year, but obviously failed to do so. Unfortunately, while a coach can't babysit everything that goes on with his players, this sort of party wasn't a new behavior for the team, and he failed to drive home the point that if they didn't straighten up that things would come crashing down. Even if the rape allegation turns out to be a hoax, which it looks to be more and more, the party and surrounding events were likely enough to get Pressler canned and the team suspended anyway.

[MNM19]

I really hope that the two players are found innocent, but even if they are the media and all those protesters in the area have already labelled the men as "rapists" and will haunt them and hunt them the remainder of their days. It is sad that the people of Duke and Durham have been so reactionary. I cannot stand that they have made this so "racial" and that obviously all lacrosse players must be these rich, white kids. It sickens me to hear them attack our sport and some fellow players because they may or may not be fortunate in where and how they were raised. So a person is rich, so what? We are NOT living in 18th century France so why are people acting like they are going to storm the Bastille??? I simply can't understand why people are getting so bent out of shape over this. I want to see justice carried out and NOT a judge and jury cowtowing to mob rule and the cries of Al Sharpton and his protesters who "know" those guys must be guilty. This case deserves to be tried in the courtroom and NOT on television.



bingo. QFE/QFT. FormerlaxDemon.....you rock

:worship: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :agree:

[DukeLax2]

i mean its not liek duke is the only team that drinks. on all my recruiting visits the players drank and the coaches seemed aware of that

[Formerlaxdemon]

i mean its not liek duke is the only team that drinks. on all my recruiting visits the players drank and the coaches seemed aware of that

Want to see a startling statistic, try and find/figure out what percentage of Americans aged 16-15 consume alcohol on any basis. The figure would sink a ship I bet. ALL teams on almost EVERY campus have engaged in drinking or social events for some time now.

[FredtheCat]

If there's a party at the "lacrosse house" with strippers and underage drinking at any school, which is probably more than we'd all like to admit, I wouldn't want to be associated with the program either.

Because those things are rare in most colleges, right? And coaches are completely oblivious to it?

[Pitibear]

Want to see a startling statistic, try and find/figure out what percentage of Americans aged 16-15 consume alcohol on any basis. The figure would sink a ship I bet. ALL teams on almost EVERY campus have engaged in drinking or social events for some time now.
does this deserve a separate thread? I don't know...but...the whole attitude, if ya can glean attitude from message board threads... everybody I talk to seems to think that underage drinking is okay, no big deal, no problem...

I sincerely think this is the entire problem.

Yeah, I had my first beer at age 19, but the legal age was 18 then...I was at a party the day the law change went into effect in the state of Michigan back in the 70's. I was one of only three kids that did not attend the senior class (high school) graduation party simply because they had three kegs there...does this make me better than anybody else? No, it doesn't.

But I get to ask the question, "why is any of this necessary?" I guess that's the pointed question I really want to ask.

I am very frustrated by all this. I am just starting to develop the sport in my locale, and this is not really helping...the next clown that asks me 'what does drinking hurt?' I'm likely to go ballistic on...

Thanks! for listening...

[Saints48]

Someone stated that Al Sharpton was involved, but I don't think that he has said anything about this situtation. Back in the 90's I think, he took the side of this girl that swore up and down that she was kidnapped by these white guys and raped. Sharpton did his usual rant and rave and dragged the guys names through the mud. In the end the girl said it was all a hoax and Sharpton was hit up with a defamation (sp) lawsuit which cost him at least 300k in settlement alone. So I think he was keeping his distance from this one.

[phoenix-32]

[QUOTE=Pitibear]
Yeah, I had my first beer at age 19, but the legal age was 18 then...I was at a party the day the law change went into effect in the state of Michigan back in the 70's. I was one of only three kids that did not attend the senior class (high school) graduation party simply because they had three kegs there...does this make me better than anybody else? No, it doesn't.
QUOTE]

Im not gunna get on a soap box about this but i think the reason under-age drinking is an issue in america is because our society has made such a huge issue over it. I have a huge problem with our drinking laws because A) we are allowed to hop into a two ton vehicle and drive (legally) at speeds over 60 miles per hour at 16 years old and B) we are eligable to be given fully automatic assult rifles and sent off to war at 18 years old. Yet i couldnt enjoy a cold beer at a football game (legally) until i was 21. Yea, that makes sense.

Im an american through and through, but i think europe has the right idea about alcohol. They start drinking earlier, and driving later... and they have a zero tolerance policy on driving under the influence. The reason they have so few drinking deaths is because people drink smarter when theyve been brought up to drink responsibly and they have too much at stake to drive drunk.

[phoenix-32]

Yea, i think your right on that. People dont realize that when your under oath in court, you can say whatever you want so long as you dont purger (sp) yourself. However, all those people talkin bull**** outside the courthouse can be held liable for defamation of character, and with regards to school faculty (coach and administration), they can be held acountable for libel.

The only problem is both of those are incredibly hard to prove, and typically expensive cases to undertake.

[Pitibear]

...under-age drinking is an issue in america is because our society has made such a huge issue over it. I have a huge problem with our drinking laws because A) we are allowed to hop into a two ton vehicle and drive (legally) at speeds over 60 miles per hour at 16 years old and B) we are eligable to be given fully automatic assult rifles and sent off to war at 18 years old. Yet i couldnt enjoy a cold beer at a football game (legally) until i was 21. Yea, that makes sense.

...in europe they start drinking earlier, and driving later, they have a zero tolerance policy on driving under the influence. They have so few drinking deaths because people drink smarter when they've been brought up to drink responsibly and they have too much at stake to drive drunk.


I agree with everything you said.

[WHEELAX2]

anyone catch the article about the accuser?? that she's in hiding, and under a doctor's care?? do you think this is a well calculated attempt to show that she is under a lot of trauma?? (though I'm sure she's suffering in some way)so that if these guys are convicted, she can sue the school/parents, or if they are not convicted, she can use the Civil System (which has less strict Burden of Proof guidelines)??

Pure speculation, but why would they need to mention this so blatantly??

[Woodenstick]

New York Times article below says Seligman (one of two indicted players) has a 100% alibi, but the DA will not meet with his attorney (this is according to the attorney).

1. The DA knows if he pulls the plug, he looks like an idiot and loses his election, so he is stalling for time, hoping to pull off a miracle and resecitate this case.

2. The president of Duke killed the season because he was under pressure for the alleged rape. But now he will also look like a fool for acting too quickly, so the basis for his decision will now be the other actions by the team. He already has set up a committee to review the [non-rape] actions of the team, and that committee will agree with his decision to kill the season. It is called covering your ***. It is totally hypocritical, none of this ever would have happened without the allegations of rape and the race/sex/class/jock hysteria.

It is fitting that Al Sharpton is involved, this is looking more and more like Tawana Brawley all over again. Will the final story be hypocritical people using a phony allegation of rape to further their own political agendas?

Duke Player Has Proof of Innocence, Lawyer Says


By DUFF WILSON
Published: April 20, 2006
DURHAM, N.C., April 19 — The lawyer for a Duke University lacrosse player charged with raping a woman at a team party said he had "irrefutable, independent evidence" that the player was not there when the woman says the rape occurred.


The proof includes cellphone records, a taxi driver's account, an A.T.M. record and a time-coded dormitory entry card, J. Kirk Osborn, the lawyer for the player, Reade Seligmann, said in an interview.

Mr. Osborn, based in Chapel Hill, N.C., said Michael B. Nifong, the Durham County district attorney, had refused to meet with him. Mr. Nifong continued to decline to answer questions from reporters Wednesday as he awaited new DNA results. Mr. Nifong said in a statement Tuesday that he was trying to develop conclusive evidence on a third suspect.

Mr. Seligmann, 20, of Essex Fells, N.J., and Collin Finnerty, 19, of Garden City, N.Y., were charged Monday with rape, sexual offense and kidnapping of a 27-year-old student from a nearby college.

The woman was hired as a stripper for a team party March 13. She arrived at the house shortly before midnight. She told the police on March 14 that three men had raped and assaulted her for about 30 minutes.

Time-stamped photographs that defense lawyers gave to reporters Wednesday indicate she was dancing at the party at 12:03 a.m. March 14 and was outside the house at 12:30 a.m., shortly before she left in a car with a second dancer. There is a 27-minute gap between the photos.

Mr. Osborn said Mr. Seligmann had records proving he made cellphone calls from the party at 12:07 a.m. and 12:14 a.m., the latter to a taxi service, which picked him up less than five minutes later and took him to an A.T.M. machine at 12:24 a.m., then to a restaurant and to his dormitory at 12:46 a.m.

The account was corroborated in a separate interview with Julian S. Mack, Mr. Seligmann's lawyer until Monday.

"There's no way Reade could have done this," Mr. Osborn said.

Mr. Osborn said he hoped Mr. Nifong would drop the charges, but he was unable to talk with him.

"I've known the guy for 25 years," Mr. Osborn said. "I went over and thought surely he'd listen to me on it. And he sent some messenger out and said: 'I saw you on the TV saying your client was absolutely innocent, so what do we have to talk about?' He wouldn't even see me himself."

Joseph B. Cheshire, a Raleigh, N.C., lawyer for a lacrosse captain who has been cleared, said there was also clear alibi evidence for Finnerty. He declined to be specific. Finnerty's lawyer William J. Cotter did not return phone calls.

Meanwhile, in Charlottesville, Va., Chip Royer, a lawyer for Jeffrey O. Bloxsom, who says he was assaulted by Mr. Finnerty last year, said Mr. Bloxsom was being hounded by the news media because of the Duke case and was now considering a civil suit against Mr. Finnerty.

[phoenix-32]

1. The DA knows if he pulls the plug, he looks like an idiot and loses his election, so he is stalling for time, hoping to pull off a miracle and resecitate this case.


Yea, your right about him trying to resecitate the case. I think hes getting desperate, as indicated by the search warrent after the inditments and having police try to talk to the defendants without their lawyers present. The DA is a media-whore, who like you said, is trying to boster his reelection.

[fossil8412]

^^^^^^Couldn't agree more, as I've stated numerously in previous threads...

[LowRida]

The lack of DNA evidence is reasonable doubt enough.

Between 70 and 90% of all cases were the accused is found guilty do not involve DNA evidence. When it all comes down to it though, it was stupid that the Duke lacrosse team even put themselves in this position, especially the captains. There is a good article about it here (http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=14178&o=ANN001), although some of you may not appreciate it since it is from a conservative newsletter.

[phoenix-32]

yea, it pisses me off that the DA cant be held accountable for any type of defamation these players, and the duke team in general face during and after the trial. he can say whatever he wants from here on out, and hes legally protected because of his status.

[HdGLaxWarrior]

Wow great story. That makes his alibi seem flawless.

[stegmakk]

There is a good article about it here (http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=14178&o=ANN001), although some of you may not appreciate it since it is from a conservative newsletter.
I agreed with it until she went off on abortion tangent and other tangents...
and let me add...
A...yes there is risk in dealing with strippers especially ones that are not from a reputable service.
B...upon seeing that they are not what you expected (nasty/drunk/ugly) you do not let them in and you call the agency and tell them you want a replacement or they are not getting your business.
C...strippers are not a lower form of life and are respectable people...treat them that way... (unless they are the nasty ones you let in from section B)
D...strippers are there for dancing not sex (that is what prostitutes are for...or again skanks from section B in which case you shouldn't even touch them with your worst enemy's junk...because think of the nasties crawling around)...
E...strippers can be a great way to start a night out with your girlfriend/wife/girlyoutakehomefromthebar...gets you in the mood (not that any kind of bare breasts don't do that already)

[laxsavage]

Want to see a startling statistic, try and find/figure out what percentage of Americans aged 16-15 consume alcohol on any basis. The figure would sink a ship I bet. ALL teams on almost EVERY campus have engaged in drinking or social events for some time now.


Okay, so that makes it okay? the "everybody's doing it" excuse is getting really old. If we are trying to prove to people that sports are more than grown men acting like children, then why do we do something like drinking which makes us look so childish? I really cant figure it out. Those who take this sport seriously, which I would assume is everyone at the college level and many below it, take tons of time with conditioning and nutrition. I don't know why they would then do something so detremental to their health. I personally think that drinking is a problem at any age, but hey, I must be missing something, right?

[Pitibear]

This is all my present specualtion, so mods can delete this if they think warranted...

1. The two young women were very inappropriately treated by the young men at the party (racial/sexual slurs/epithets).

2. the party itself is very poor behavior indicator.

3. The one young woman was physically assaulted in some manner.

4. None of the witness testimony (other than original complainant), forensic evidence, nor physical eveidence conclusively points to the crime of rape. Being "consistent with," is a far cry from corroborative.

5. The young woman chose to "lash out" at her tormentors, by bringing the rape accusation, rightly or wrongly.

6. The district attorney chose to publically present the case, and the media complied.

7. the university admin took actions they felt the were forced into.

8. the code of silence indicates trying to get away with as much as possible. How 'bout everybody tell what happened, and take responsibility for their part in this?

9. There are obviously "degrees of culpability" in the creation of this mess, but the players, the young women, the D.A., the Univ Admin, and the media, all have culpability in this, and everybody should own up to it.

I'm done ranting, but, man, am I frustrated...as I said earlier, I'm trying to develop a local program, and this isn't helping...lacrosse made the top header in the local newspaper (front page)for the first time ever this week, and obviously not how we would have liked...After the NCAA championships, I'm going to have to write a nasty email to them as to why the bad gets the coverage, but the good gets buried on page 9, or whatever...

[Foxfirebass]

Okay, so that makes it okay? the "everybody's doing it" excuse is getting really old. If we are trying to prove to people that sports are more than grown men acting like children, then why do we do something like drinking which makes us look so childish? I really cant figure it out. Those who take this sport seriously, which I would assume is everyone at the college level and many below it, take tons of time with conditioning and nutrition. I don't know why they would then do something so detremental to their health. I personally think that drinking is a problem at any age, but hey, I must be missing something, right?

He wasn't saying it's OKAY for people to drink underage, just that it shouldn't be such a big deal when it comes to the AD's investigation, because it happens a lot more than just this instance

That's what I got from it, anyhow.

[Bobeo]

Between 70 and 90% of all cases were the accused is found guilty do not involve DNA evidence. When it all comes down to it though, it was stupid that the Duke lacrosse team even put themselves in this position, especially the captains. There is a good article about it here (http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=14178&o=ANN001), although some of you may not appreciate it since it is from a conservative newsletter.

I just had a nice long post about how dumb that article was but it got erased. Oh well. Take my word for it- it was a stupid article with absolutely terrible writing.

[Varsity629]

Its interesting to note that both of these players, regardless of what happens will never be "Innocent", for the rest of their life they will only be "NOT GUILTY" which to me means two completely different things.

[phoenix-32]

Its interesting to note that both of these players, regardless of what happens will never be "Innocent", for the rest of their life they will only be "NOT GUILTY" which to me means two completely different things.

yea, regardless of what happens they will always be labeled as "those two duke lacrosse guys," or worse.

[Lax-A-Tive]

Am I an idiot or what? I can't believe that Syracuse is saying they won't take Zack Greer. He is a great player and would be a valuable addition to any team. Syracuse has a bunch of strong young players but one more sure wouldn't hurt. He wasn't identified as a possible rapist. Another case of a guy getting judged before all the evidence is in. Also, I wouldn't go so easy on the Duke administration. They should have stood by their student/athletes until the proof was in. And how about the courts in DC saying they are going to revoke Finnerty's prior deal. Again, he hasn't been found guilty of anything. Since this girl was 100% sure that Seligmann was one of the two guys who assaulted her, what does that say about her accuracy in identifying Finnerty. Finally, why won't the DA talk to Seligmann's attorney? You would think that he would want to evaluate the alibi evidence before he spends a bunch of money going after a kid who supposedly can easily prove his innocence. I guess he doesn't want to irritate the Durham community. To bad, if the kid can prove his innocence, then he, along with the Durham community, should let him do so sooner as opposed to later. The DA sure didn't mind talking and trying to discredit Duke lacrosse players through the press. I think he is the worst kind of DA, one who only cares about his own political ambitions. I think he will do more damage to himself if he goes ahead with a case he knows he shouldn't try. What kind of grown up does this kind of stuff to a 19 year old kid? I guess maybe after the election he might change his mind and drop the charges. I think the guy is a major league p***k. Be proud of yourself Mr. DA.

[Lax-A-Tive]

I'm really on a rant now I. Let me see if I have this straight. 1 Girl says she was raped, 46 boys say she wasn't. Let's believe the 1 girl. DNA tests are run on all but one of the men. No DNA ties between the girl and the 45 men. Let's believe that DNA really doesn't matter because we all know that it is almost impossible to leave traces of DNA on a person after you have assaulted and raped them them for 30 minutes or so. Time/dated photos show girl with the bruises and bleeding she received during the alleged rape before the alleged rape took place. Let's disregard the photos and believe the girl. Girl is "passed out drunk" in a car shortly after the alleged rape took place. I know my recollection is always dead on when I'm "passed out drunk". Just to be fair, let's go with girl on this one also. Girl is "100% accurate" when she identifies two of the alleged rapists. Oddly, one of the alleged rapists has documentary evidence and eye witness testimony proving that he couldn't have been one of the rapists. Okay, lets disregard the overwhelming evidence and, to be on the safe side, let's believe the girl. The other stripper at the party originally doubts the victim's story but then later changes her mind. I'll bet she is mad she didn't come up with this story before the victim did. By the way, I read she got her bail reduced on an current and outstanding embezzelment charge when she changed her story and that the same DA signed off on it. Okay, you may think this sounds a little fishy but I can't imagine not siding with the victim on this one. DA that shoots his mouth off to voters shortly before an election (in which he is a candidate) in a town that wants the men's blood. Now that I think about it, of course she was assaulted. I think its entirely possible to be eating fast food across town and rape someone at the same time. How could I have possibly doubted her story when you have "facts" like these. I say skip the trial and hang the boys right now. Under these facts, I can live with that, can she?

[Brady]

Not for nothing, but I think that what Syracuse's AD is saying is that he doesn't want to poach players from a school/program that is currently in flux:

"I think it would be inappropriate," Syracuse athletic director Daryl Gross said. "I wouldn't be interested in our coaches recruiting players from Duke, given the situation."

Maybe I'm reading too much into it but to me that looks like a 'let's wait until the situation cools off before we just start to pick the carcass clean'. That's just my thoughts, though.

[stegmakk]

Am I an idiot or what? I can't believe that Syracuse is saying they won't take Zack Greer.
While I whole heartedly agree with you about these guys not raping the woman...I would side with cuse on this one.
The trial is just getting started (they have only been indicted) and anything can happen.
Also there is a third suspect that they want to add to the fire.
While I disagree with the case, I can understand Syracuse not wanting to get involved until things are more settled.

[Lax-A-Tive]

You're probably right. I hope so anyway. I just didn't want Greer to not be able to get into a good program.

[devillax57]

ok i did not want to make a different thread on this because we have about 10 Duke threads on here...but did anyone see the Today Show this morning. They made lacrosse look like a sport for rapists and matt lauer said something along the lines of "is there something in the game that makes lacrosse players do this". I was shocked and pretty angry.

[Pitibear]

Give Matt Lauer my newly created Nancy Grace Award, for "high level stupidity in unbelievably slanted journalism."

[phoenix-32]

ok i did not want to make a different thread on this because we have about 10 Duke threads on here...but did anyone see the Today Show this morning. They made lacrosse look like a sport for rapists and matt lauer said something along the lines of "is there something in the game that makes lacrosse players do this". I was shocked and pretty angry.

This could possibly be what i hate most about this whole thing. Football, basketball, and baseball players get in trouble all the time for different things, nobody ever points a finger and says, "all (insert sport) players are (insert crime)ists!" (execpt, of course, for baseball and roids, but thats for different reasons - mainly linked with cheating). But because lax is a fringe sport that hasnt penitrated american culture, immediately all these ignorant Fu*ktards are drawing conclusions about all lacrosse players in general.

I play in california, and people used to smile and seem interested when i said i play lax for my school. Now i get these crazy looks from people everytime i mention to someone i play lacrosse... in their eyes, im a shady lacrosse guy.

Regardless of the outcome of this trial, lacrosse has an uphill battle to gain favor in the states it was starting to expand to, and that sucks

[laxboy452]

the idiots of the us always point fingers at us. like that one article talking about lacrosse players being related to steve stifler from american pie

phoenix who do u play for?

[dtl42]

I played against seligmann's younger bro today(8th grade), he is really good he had a baby blue krypto which was kinda queer but he arugeud w/ the ref a lot, and i mean like every call, large or small, it got really annoying, that might provide insight into his older brother's attitude or personality

[BeaverFondu]

I played against seligmann's younger bro today(8th grade), he is really good he had a baby blue krypto which was kinda queer but he arugeud w/ the ref a lot, and i mean like every call, large or small, it got really annoying, that might provide insight into his older brother's attitude or personality

I hate it when people make logical fallacies. If the judge/jury is any good they won't use evidence that his younger brother is *****y during lacrosse games. Some people I know are completely different in lacrosse then they are in real life.

I mean, hey, you never know though. It might provide insight. Monkey see monkey do.

[dtl42]

i wasnt necessarily saying that since thats how he acts thats how his brother acts, he might have just been like that because he is under lots of stress, but i know my brother acts a lot like me and has a lot of the same values i do, not just from my parents.

[phoenix-32]

moved this post

[swordsman]

Umm, why are prople surpirsed about underage drinking and a stripper at a party in any college?

[BeaverFondu]

i wasnt necessarily saying that since thats how he acts thats how his brother acts, he might have just been like that because he is under lots of stress, but i know my brother acts a lot like me and has a lot of the same values i do, not just from my parents.


Yes, I know. I was saying that too.

[phoenix-32]

Umm, why are prople surpirsed about underage drinking and a stripper at a party in any college?

ding ding ding.... we have a winner (i agree)

[phoenix-32]

phoenix who do u play for?

San Jose State, Where do you play?


that might provide insight into his older brother's attitude or personality

i dont care about his attitude or personality. neither of those attributes indicate whether or not he is a rapist. the only thing that matters is whether or not he raped this chick. right now, from the information ive gotten from the media, i think this guys innocent and i hope this women suffers for the rest of her life.

Ive had friends on both sides of rape accusations; female friends accusing and male friends being accused. Either way, i firmly believe rape is a crime second only to murder. That being said,

I THINK BEING FALSELY ACCUSED OF RAPE IS JUST AS BAD AS RAPE ITSELF,

and i hope, if in fact these guys are innocent, that this chick suffers as much as humanly possible for what shes done to these two guys.

[Lax-A-Tive]

I think (but I don't know) that she made this story up. But, once the train left the station it was to late to turn back. You can thank DA Nifong and the Duke administration (who hired these idiots and if the lacrosse team was such a group of delinquents, why was the AD let go also) for jumping the gun and making it all but impossible for her to recant her story. She's not going to suffer, Jesse Jackson said he is going to pay her college tuition even if she did lie. Now that's a good way to teach someone right from wrong. When I have kids, I'll give them money and candy when the lie. She'll make a ton on talk shows. Suffer, I seriously doubt it.

[LaxBear]

The AD and the other folks at the 'Cuse are spot-on correct in their handling of this transfer issue, and here's why:

1. This Duke scandal is radioactive, and is the worst possible thing that could happen to our sport. That said, any program that accepts or considers accepting any of the current Duke players before this gets sorted out and resolved in the courts is going to suffer severe "radiation poisoning." It's that simple, like it or not.

2. The vast majority of us think these guys will be cleared of the charges filed against them. So these other schools are wise to let the evidence play out in court and let justice prevail before they even consider accepting any transfers from Duke.

Yes, the Blue Devil seniors will get screwed out of their last season, and that's sad. Yes, the sport of lacrosse has suffered a terrible setback, at the hands of evil, manipulative people with personal agendas. Nothing can change that, but we all can learn from it and take great care with the way we each represent the sport in the future. And yes, Duke's reputation as one of the nation's finest schools has suffered a huge blow, regardless of the legal outcome.

That's the kind of things that happen, sometimes, when you behave stupidly, flout the code of conduct set up by those paying your way, and act without first considering the possible results of your actions.

[phoenix-32]

i didnt here about jesse jackson paying her tution. that makes me sick

[Eboni]

For those who are opinionated one way or the other, they are no better than the media. So we read an article of someone's opinion .... snippets of "proof" are leaked out for the world to analyze. We speculate, we have expected outcomes, we have desired outcomes, and we take sides based on the outcome we most desire. Based on the little snippets of facts leaked out in the media people actually think they have enough to go on to choose sides. To be honest, it is human nature to have a preference or leaning. It is when that preference or leaning is used hegemonically against other groups of people that it becomes violatory of every human being's inalienable rights. So, to preface what I am about to write, it is based on my limited-non-witnessed-media-exposure.


Reade turned himself in: It wasn't until after his family and lawyers got involved that Reade was in essence shut up. People are picking at Reade's character, sure, but he voluntarily came forward. Of course, no one wants to see their loved one go down in flames, whether guilty or not.

Pedigree card played by the media: The media successfully polarized class opinions: 1) Stated that these guys are from well-to-do backgrounds and, therefore, could not have possibly been capable of a crime; and 2) Stated that because these guys are from well-to-do backgrounds that whatever crime they may have committed they think they are above the law.

The Race Card: The race card was introduced when the lacrosse captains specifically requested the hire of african-american girls to visually pleasure them. The media chose to make a big deal out of it, as if it is strange and rare that a white male would find a black female attractive, desirable, exotic, erotic, etc. American History 101 rebukes the media for trying to make something out of that old taboo and had the party not gotten out of hand, the rest of us, including their parents, would have never known. The girls would have walked away with their $200 an hour, paid the rent and phone bill, and the guys would have had pleasant wet dreams. A twist to this race card, however, is the discovery of one of the teammates violently graphic e-mails. If it is further discovered that this attitude is pervasive through out the team, the entire team and the currently indicted may face race-hate crime charges. With Finnerty having established a prior assault using homophobic slurs, this could answer someone's question of how can things get any uglier. Now would not be the time to act timid about geniunely wanting to see some jiggling brown booty.

Timeline played to the media: Though to rally support for the defense, the defense attorneys know that the timeline is relative to the alleged victim's perspective of having been harmed. Of course, the victim wasn't staring at her whatch the hole time noting that at 12:00 a.m. one guy grapped my legs, at 12:02 a.m. another guy grapped my arms, at 12:08 I was roughed to the floor, at 12:11 I felted vaginal penetration, at 12:13 I felt anal penetration, etc., etc., etc. One minuted of being tortured could feel like an eternity. She may have only been actually assaulted for 2 to 3 minutes, which may have felt like 30 minutes to her. When a supposed aliby is so close to the time of the victims perceived time of occurrances, one does not have an aliby. Reade would have needed to have been cleared by hours not by mere minutes. As a matter of fact, his so-close-documented-timing could be spun to construe him as trying to quickly create an aliby after what he just did, witnessed, or initiated the start of ..... this is called CYOA.

Lack of DNA evidence: This does not conclude charges. Several factors would be worth investigating: wealth influencing the tampering of evidence and object penetration. They could have used the broom. The alleged victim being pended down, may not have known the difference between the broom stick and their penises. Every male's penis is not the same length and thickness, but during a traumatic occurrance, a hard stick is a hard stick. If she KNOWS she was vaginally and anally penetrated, it is to be discovered whether she was penetrated by objects and/or by genitalia (condoms or no condoms). If she was only penetrated by objects, this may change the case from rape to assault. In some states rape is only if there is penetration of genitalia.

[phoenix-32]

For those who are opinionated one way or the other, they are no better than the media.

I dont think you could be more wrong. There is a significant difference between talking about opinions in an open dialogue between community members (whether that community is a forum such as this, a classroom discussion, or a conversation amongst friends), and professionals disseminating opinions in the form of "fact".

This is exactly why the first amendment protects individuals from libel in public forums and limited public forums. It is a throw back to the notion of a "marketplace of ideas" that has been at the heart of many first amendment cases that have reached the Supreme Court.

I wish i had more time to respond to this post. Im a journalism student, and allthough i agree with some of the points you make, you seem to imply people dont have a right to opinion by stating:

people actually think they have enough to go on to choose sides

Well, Ive had an opinion since day one, and every time new information comes to light, i revise my opinion. It's called being analytical, and reason i am upset when i look at the state of journalism surrounding this case, and other events in the news lately, is because it is sensational; not analytical.

[Eboni]

Well phoenix, I myself stated MY OWN OPINION so I don't disagree with you and if you had quoted the rest of that very paragraph, you would also have been able to note that I am aware that it is human nature to have preferences.

Do try to be fair.

[stegmakk]

Phoenix...you are the greatest...this is how EVERYONE should do it...Well, Ive had an opinion since day one, and every time new information comes to light, i revise my opinion. It's called being analytical, and reason i am upset when i look at the state of journalism surrounding this case, and other events in the news lately, is because it is sensational; not analytical.
That is how i WAS doing it until I had enough...personally I am still trying to figure this case out in my head.
Journalistically speaking i had to pick a side of the fence and that is what i did...
what i wrote a few days ago still stands...i might update as the time goes by but as of right now...http://laxnation.com/home/displaynationsviews.php?viewtopic=DukeScandal&author=Keith%20Stegmaier

[Woodenstick]

* * * *

Timeline played to the media: Though to rally support for the defense, the defense attorneys know that the timeline is relative to the alleged victim's perspective of having been harmed. Of course, the victim wasn't staring at her whatch the hole time noting that at 12:00 a.m. one guy grapped my legs, at 12:02 a.m. another guy grapped my arms, at 12:08 I was roughed to the floor, at 12:11 I felted vaginal penetration, at 12:13 I felt anal penetration, etc., etc., etc. One minuted of being tortured could feel like an eternity. She may have only been actually assaulted for 2 to 3 minutes, which may have felt like 30 minutes to her. When a supposed aliby is so close to the time of the victims perceived time of occurrances, one does not have an aliby. Reade would have needed to have been cleared by hours not by mere minutes. As a matter of fact, his so-close-documented-timing could be spun to construe him as trying to quickly create an aliby after what he just did, witnessed, or initiated the start of ..... this is called CYOA.

Lack of DNA evidence: This does not conclude charges. Several factors would be worth investigating: wealth influencing the tampering of evidence and object penetration. They could have used the broom. The alleged victim being pended down, may not have known the difference between the broom stick and their penises. Every male's penis is not the same length and thickness, but during a traumatic occurrance, a hard stick is a hard stick. If she KNOWS she was vaginally and anally penetrated, it is to be discovered whether she was penetrated by objects and/or by genitalia (condoms or no condoms). If she was only penetrated by objects, this may change the case from rape to assault. In some states rape is only if there is penetration of genitalia.

Actually, the timeline is not just from the stipper's statement, but from timed photos, taxi records, police records, and other sources.

While the lack of DNA evidence is not conclusiive, the stripper statement said she was raped but not with a broom. Pretty hard to get that wrong.

It is still unclear what happened, but 3 facts are not reasonably debatable:

1. There are significant facts that cast doubts on these allegations,[which is pretty important for a case that must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt]

2. There has been a rush to judgement by the DA, Duke Admin, Durham and Afro American leaders and media. Everyone is whipping on the Duke team for their own purposes.

3. Some clearly innocent players are suffering for this.

[Eboni]

Actually, the timeline is not just from the stipper's statement, but from timed photos, taxi records, police records, and other sources.

Timed photos, taxi records, etc. established a time frame, but it does not discount the alleged victims perspective that something happened to her around that time.


While the lack of DNA evidence is not conclusiive, the stripper statement said she was raped but not with a broom. Pretty hard to get that wrong.

If that is in fact what the alleged victim stated in her police report, then thank you for enlightening me.

If not, however, are you speaking anecdotally? If so, would you like to share your experience with having had someone penetrate your rectum with a penis versus having had someone penetrate your rectum with a broom handle? Would you care to ellaborate on the differences you felt between the two penetrating entities?


It is still unclear what happened, but 3 facts are not reasonably debatable:

1. There are significant facts that cast doubts on these allegations,[which is pretty important for a case that must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt]

2. There has been a rush to judgement by the DA, Duke Admin, Durham and Afro American leaders and media. Everyone is whipping on the Duke team for their own purposes.

3. Some clearly innocent players are suffering for this.

I agree. The only people who know what actually happenned are those who were there, though one can be someplace and an be oblivious to what is going on. An investigation is for the benefit of those who were NOT there.

1. "Significant facts" are relative to the totality of the case. I have not read of any smoking gun for or against either side, which, by the way is in the defense's favor concerning a criminal conviction.

2. I do believe that European Americans, Duke campus students wearing and selling support t-shirts, and the defense attorney can be added to your list.

3. Only if in fact they are innocent.

[BuckWyld]

I don't see how timestamps on photographs are an airtight alibi, the timestamp is setup by the user of the camera, you can take a picture and have it say time with most cameras.

[OldGoalie]

I don't see how timestamps on photographs are an airtight alibi, the timestamp is setup by the user of the camera, you can take a picture and have it say time with most cameras.

You just argued for the airtight alibi. The users in this case would have had to set the time before taking the pictures, and unless they deliberately set the camera to the wrong time before the party (which doesn't make any logical sense unless the alleged rape was premeditated) it's airtight.

[BuckWyld]

No what I am saying is that the timestamps on the photos are hardly facts, and I would not consider them to be very good evidence for a few reasons. The actual time the photos were taken and the time displayed may or may not be the same also time elapsed between photos may be different from what the timestamps indicate. The fact that the user of the camera can easily adjust the times that the pictures appear to be taken make them poor evidence. Beyond that I wouldn't be suprised if it would be relatively easy to go back after the pictures were taken and adjust the timestamps retroactively if one were inclinded to do so. If the pictures were from say a security camera that was not controlled by the accused then they would be better evidence

[OldGoalie]

The actual time the photos were taken and the time displayed may or may not be the same also time elapsed between photos may be different from what the timestamps indicate.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Of course the timestamp and the actual time may be different, but as I said before, someone would have had to deliberately set the camera time incorrectly for it to be off. And why wouldn't the elapsed time match actual time? That's why cameras have an internal clock


The fact that the user of the camera can easily adjust the times that the pictures appear to be taken make them poor evidence. Beyond that I wouldn't be suprised if it would be relatively easy to go back after the pictures were taken and adjust the timestamps retroactively if one were inclinded to do so. If the pictures were from say a security camera that was not controlled by the accused then they would be better evidence

It's not very complicated. If the camera were set up so that pictures taken in the past cannot be manipulated, then it's a no-brainer. I would guess that most cameras are set up this way - I know my Canon SD500 is. Once I set the date/time, I cannot go back and edit a picture that was already timestamped. And supposedly the defense attorneys had the timestamps electronically verified.

[BuckWyld]

Here is what I am saying.

1. Intentionally or not the timestamps may not be correct, therefore the idea of using the timestamps as proof of what time things happened is flawed.

2. There is no way to prove that the camera's internal clock was not adjusted inbetween pictures, so using the pictures to show when things happened relative to each other is also not possible

3 The final part I was speculating that with a consumer level camera it is probably not very difficult to adjust the timestamp after the picture is taken if one were motivated. I can not say this is true for certain but the fact that the manufacturers have little incentive to protect timestamps from being tampered with (because the customers don't care) means that it is likely possible. I don't know how the defense attourney had it verified, but if I were the prosicuter, that is one thing I would look in to to discredit that piece of evidence

To clarify the above, I am assuming that it is a digital camera, so the timestamp is stored in the picture in a known format (.jpg or something). Now given that the memory in the camera is written to over and over I think that it would be difficult to show that the timestamp was intentionally altered, especially if one were to set the system clock in the computer they were using to do it. I wouldn't bet my life on it but I bet it would not be that hard to make it pass all but the best investigation. Also the fact that the defense attorney is saying it makes me take the statement that this is proof with some skepticism.

I am not saying that any of this did happen, but digital information that was not designed to be secure, especially stuff that has been in the hands of someone with a very real interest in having the data show certain information should be viewed with suspicion.


edit: I did a bit of digging, and it seems that the timestamp he is talking about is stored as part of the picture so you would have to use something like photoshop to change it which would probably leave "fingerprints" if it were changed, I had assumed it was stored as a timestamp attached to the picture data, which would have been much easier to alter. That being said my first two points are still valid.

[mrmccool]

Here is what I am saying.

1. Intentionally or not the timestamps may not be correct, therefore the idea of using the timestamps as proof of what time things happened is flawed.

2. There is no way to prove that the camera's internal clock was not adjusted inbetween pictures, so using the pictures to show when things happened relative to each other is also not possible

3 The final part I was speculating that with a consumer level camera it is probably not very difficult to adjust the timestamp after the picture is taken if one were motivated. I can not say this is true for certain but the fact that the manufacturers have little incentive to protect timestamps from being tampered with (because the customers don't care) means that it is likely possible. I don't know how the defense attourney had it verified, but if I were the prosicuter, that is one thing I would look in to to discredit that piece of evidence

To clarify the above, I am assuming that it is a digital camera, so the timestamp is stored in the picture in a known format (.jpg or something). Now given that the memory in the camera is written to over and over I think that it would be difficult to show that the timestamp was intentionally altered, especially if one were to set the system clock in the computer they were using to do it. I wouldn't bet my life on it but I bet it would not be that hard to make it pass all but the best investigation. Also the fact that the defense attorney is saying it makes me take the statement that this is proof with some skepticism.

I am not saying that any of this did happen, but digital information that was not designed to be secure, especially stuff that has been in the hands of someone with a very real interest in having the data show certain information should be viewed with suspicion.

There is still the cab driver, the phone calls, the atm... why can't we just accept that he wasn't there? someone got raped and didn't have dna under her fingernails? she was drunk already? the guy she pointed out with 100% certainty wasn't even there?
To argue that it's still possible for him to have done it is not staying unbiased, but disregarding fact. What does she have going for her? A record and a friend that wasn't there... this is painfully drawn out.

[phoenix-32]

Well phoenix, I myself stated MY OWN OPINION so I don't disagree with you and if you had quoted the rest of that very paragraph, you would also have been able to note that I am aware that it is human nature to have preferences.

Do try to be fair.

I am well aware that it was your opinion and i never took that away from you. Im pretty positive that i prefaced my statement with "i dont think", denoting that the following was MY OPINION OF YOUR OPINION. That being said, i still think your arogant and wrong.

On a side note, having never been rectally breached i cant comment on being able to tell the difference between a broomstick and a **** tickling my prostate. However, im sure i know at least one girl who has taken it up the "duke"-shoot (you like that clever play on words didnt you?), and i'll be sure to get her input on the matter, and report back to the forum.

[BuckWyld]

To argue that it's still possible for him to have done it is not staying unbiased, but disregarding fact.

Taking the word of the defense attorney as gospel is also not unbiased. I don't know if he was there, I was simply looking at one piece of evidence put forward by the defense attorney and saying that I feel that it is somewhat less than airtight, given my understanding.

[Eboni]

I am well aware that it was your opinion and i never took that away from you. Im pretty positive that i prefaced my statement with "i dont think", denoting that the following was MY OPINION OF YOUR OPINION. That being said, i still think your arogant and wrong.

On a side note, having never been rectally breached i cant comment on being able to tell the difference between a broomstick and a **** tickling my prostate. However, im sure i know at least one girl who has taken it up the "duke"-shoot (you like that clever play on words didnt you?), and i'll be sure to get her input on the matter, and report back to the forum.

Mr. I'm-so-funny-Phoenix, I'm not clear how you get arrogance from my posts, but to each his own.

Saturday Night Live is probably itching to do a Lacrosse skit.

[OldGoalie]

Whether the time was exactly accurate is somewhat unimportant. The photos are of the people involved, and that much no one has denied, so there is no reason to believe they are not authentic. If we accept that they are of the people in question, then, being "close enough" to the actual time is good enough for the pictures to be reasonable evidence.

As for modifying timestamps after the fact, again, my experience with my camera dictates that it cannot be done without downloading and Photoshopping them. I would guess that the attorneys had the memory cards validated, and not downloaded files from a PC. If not, then they can expect the DA to be all over it.

Finally, while it is of course possible for someone to have modified the date/time in between pictures, common sense would say that is highly unlikely. Who is to say that the pictures came from a member of the team? And even if they did, why would someone with suspiscion or knowledge of a crime being committed take pictures of the situation to begin with?

[BuckWyld]

My point is not that the photos were modified, or even that it is likely that they were modified, only that it is possible, and therefore while they may have value in the court of public opinion they probably have very little value in the court of law.

[OldGoalie]

My point is not that the photos were modified, or even that it is likely that they were modified, only that it is possible, and therefore while they may have value in the court of public opinion they probably have very little value in the court of law.

I couldn't disagree more. They have potentially very high value in a court of law, if they can be authenticated by reasonable means. And even if it can't be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the timestamps are valid, other circumstancial and witness evidence that places the participants at the house at the approximate times indicated by the camera makes it reasonable evidence to admit into court. It's really up to the judge to decide.

[laxpimp]

Hmmm, any one else wondering how she picked a guy with 100% certainty?

Stripper: Uh, yeah it was him. The white guy.

Mike Nifong:Are you sure?/ 100%?

Stripper:Yes.

Mike Nifong: OMG!!! TEH STRPR JUS TOLD ME THAT THOSE @ PLAYERS IS GILTY!!!!1

[BuckWyld]

Old Goalie, I suppose we will see.

[Eboni]

Hmmm, any one else wondering how she picked a guy with 100% certainty?

Stripper: Uh, yeah it was him. The white guy.

Mike Nifong:Are you sure?/ 100%?

Stripper:Yes.

Mike Nifong: OMG!!! TEH STRPR JUS TOLD ME THAT THOSE @ PLAYERS IS GILTY!!!!1


Correct me if I'm wrong, but the alleged victim stated that Reade forced her to perform fallacio on him. Though he may have wanted to see it happen, I'm not sure how that fits into charges of rape. His act of forcing her to go down on him could very well have occurred before the actual violations. She probably got a pretty good view of the guy.

The cab driver stated that when Reade got into the cab he stated that "She's just a stripper!" This could imply that something unseemly did occur and that Reade was smug in thinking that it didn't matter, because she's "just a stripper."

[grlaxcoach]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the alleged victim stated that Reade forced her to perform fallacio on him. Though he may have wanted to see it happen, I'm not sure how that fits into charges of rape. His act of forcing her to go down on him could very well have occurred before the actual violations. She probably got a pretty good view of the guy.

The cab driver stated that when Reade got into the cab he stated that "She's just a stripper!" This could imply that something unseemly did occur and that Reade was smug in thinking that it didn't matter, because she's "just a stripper."
In most states, the charge of rape includes any 'penetration' for the purpose of sexual gratification - that would include forceable oral sex. As to your final point, I may be mistaken, but the quote of 'She's just a stripper' has been attributed by the cabbie to the second pair of players he picked up that evening and not Seligman.

[stegmakk]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the alleged victim stated that Reade forced her to perform fallacio on him. Though he may have wanted to see it happen, I'm not sure how that fits into charges of rape. His act of forcing her to go down on him could very well have occurred before the actual violations. She probably got a pretty good view of the guy.

The cab driver stated that when Reade got into the cab he stated that "She's just a stripper!" This could imply that something unseemly did occur and that Reade was smug in thinking that it didn't matter, because she's "just a stripper."
Actually the cab driver said Reade was acting normal...it was the second pick up (after he drove Reade around for a while, dropped him off at his dorm and returned to the house to get another fare)...and the "She's just a stripper" could also be that she threatened to go to the cops because she wasnt paid...we don't know what was said before that line...

[stegmakk]

Hmmm, any one else wondering how she picked a guy with 100% certainty?
Stripper: Uh, yeah it was him. The white guy.
Mike Nifong:Are you sure?/ 100%?
Stripper:Yes.
Mike Nifong: OMG!!! TEH STRPR JUS TOLD ME THAT THOSE @ PLAYERS IS GILTY!!!!1
Ummm...NO!
If it wasn't a line up, it was that they showed her photos of the guys...she sat and picked out 2 @ 100% certainty and 1 @ 90% certainty...

[OldGoalie]

Old Goalie, I suppose we will see.

You are correct sir!

[phoenix-32]

Ummm...NO!
If it wasn't a line up, it was that they showed her photos of the guys...she sat and picked out 2 @ 100% certainty and 1 @ 90% certainty...

Yea, on top of that the precedure was done incorrectly. Usually when doing a "photo line-up" there are pictures of people completely unrelated to the case added to the photos of potential suspects.

In this case a powerpoint presentation featuring only duke lacrosse player was shown to the accuse, thus, making it impossible for her to pick someone other than a duke team member.

Of all the information released in this case, this is one of the major details that really leads me to believe this women is lying. She identified seligmann with 100% accury. Ive seen two independant news sources validate both the credit card approvals and the phone records and I personally believe that Seligmann could not be involved, at least in the capasity that the DA would like us to believe. If she picked him with 100% certainty and is wrong, then I dont trust her accusing anyone else without physical evidence supporting her.

[phoenix-32]

Mr. I'm-so-funny-Phoenix, I'm not clear how you get arrogance from my posts, but to each his own.

Saturday Night Live is probably itching to do a Lacrosse skit.

Your right, and im sorry. Arrogant was the wrong word. I think pretentious is a better word.

However, we do agree on one point. SNL has got to be chomping at the bit to do a skit about this.

[Eboni]

Your right, and im sorry. Arrogant was the wrong word. I think pretentious is a better word.

However, we do agree on one point. SNL has got to be chomping at the bit to do a skit about this.


Phoenix, your name calling is unnecessary. We can agree to disagree.

[SUlaxjunkie]

Interesting turn of events - apparently she has accused 3 other men of "rape" back in the day (10 yrs. ago) I think. And, apparently she had a nervous breakdown last year over mounting financial bills or so said her mother in the news this morning. Anyone else see that? Here's a link to the story of her previous accusation: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,193495,00.html

I saw the mom thing on the Today Show and I'm looking for that link now.

Personally, I think that any way you slice it they can't try this case fairly. Too much info has been leak, they have tainted the jury pool and the dumb a&s DA has ruined everything.

[stegmakk]

Interesting turn of events - apparently she has accused 3 other men of "rape" back in the day (10 yrs. ago) I think. And, apparently she had a nervous breakdown last year over mounting financial bills or so said her mother in the news this morning. Anyone else see that? Here's a link to the story of her previous accusation: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,193495,00.html
I read this yesterday too...i really hate to think a person would fake a rape claim but the more i hear the madder i get...
i would think that if there were people charged and convicted 10 years ago it would have made me believe her more this time...however...she eventually dropped it because she feared for her safety...or did she realize there would be no evidence because nothing happened...and this time when crying rape it snowballed out of control and she cant take it back now?


I saw the mom thing on the Today Show and I'm looking for that link now.
Personally, I think that any way you slice it they can't try this case fairly. Too much info has been leak, they have tainted the jury pool and the dumb a&s DA has ruined everything.
True...both sides have tainted the jury pool and the nation...you never want to get into a he started it argument but when it comes to this issue i think the defense lawyers are justified...the DA started the ball rolling basically saying he would prove the lacrosse players did it even before there was any DNA evidence or any solid evidence besides a claim...he was labeling them guilty and getting his face in the public eye for his own gain...the defense attorneys HAD to get into it because they saw the mounting hate for the lacrosse players, and the negative tainting of the jury pool...at that point in order to have a somewhat level playing field they had to leak info just to balance things...if they took the ethical way of keeping quiet, they might have their respect still, but they would have lost the case already in the media and public eye

[gctales]

I read this yesterday too...i really hate to think a person would fake a rape claim but the more i hear the madder i get...
i would think that if there were people charged and convicted 10 years ago it would have made me believe her more this time...however...she eventually dropped it because she feared for her safety...or did she realize there would be no evidence because nothing happened...and this time when crying rape it snowballed out of control and she cant take it back now?

Stegg,

I want to resist that line of thought and assume that she is telling the truth as she beleives it happened and didn't file a false report...

But the more I see, the more I am starting to believe

I want to remain unbiased and let the legal process do it's thing.. but I am forced to agree.. there is no way this is goign to get a fair trial.. MSNBC (?) did a thing on that last night w/ Bill O'rielly and Van Sustrand... and the only thing they could agree on (surprise) was that the trial will ahve to change venues and it will be tough to find someone who has heard nothing or has no opinion on this case...

I also think it's pretty dirty pool for the DA to reinstate earlier disorderly conduct and public unrination charges on the non-indicted members of the team (including ones who were supposedly in NYC) unless they can prove they weren't at the party.. legal to do, but pretty cheap shot, none the less...

I think Nifong is starting to finding that his evidence isn't as rock solid as he claimed and that regardless of what really happened, it will be very hard to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt...

[Petem0ss]

Interesting turn of events - apparently she has accused 3 other men of "rape" back in the day (10 yrs. ago) I think. And, apparently she had a nervous breakdown last year over mounting financial bills or so said her mother in the news this morning. Anyone else see that? Here's a link to the story of her previous accusation: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,193495,00.html

Interesting. Between this revelation & the process used to ID the accusers, I'm going to give the police work in this case about a C- so far. And I'm going to give the DA an F for taking this case to the media with C- police work to support his position. Nice going, jerky - in the best interests of the Durham community, I hope you lose your bid for re-election Tuesday.

[Lax-A-Tive]

gctales: Do you really believe Nifong ever thought his evidence was rock solid. I think he has been pandering to the Durham community since day one. He wants to be re-elected and he doesn't care a thing about evidence or justice. I think it's interesting how the lynch mob mentality has crossed over to the people who complain about it the most. Race and class envy needs to put aside and everyone should hope that the truth eventually comes out. With all the evidence in favor of Seligmann, Nifong should be disbarred for pursuing charges against him. He is an embarrasement to the legal profession and that's sinking pretty low.

[Marty]

Interesting commentary I heard on the radio about the political aspects. The commentator made similar suggestions as Lax-A-Tive and then discussed how they are backfiring - some people won't be happy unless there is a conviction which I can't imagine he's going to get - a NCCC student was quoted in a recent article that he felt the Duke students should go to prison whether they did it or not in order to achieve justice for all that has gone on before - Nifong will obviously never please this kid and now the people who are willing to look at with an open mind have to be questioning his judgement as well

[KnightsLAXDad]

Interesting commentary I heard on the radio about the political aspects. The commentator made similar suggestions as Lax-A-Tive and then discussed how they are backfiring - some people won't be happy unless there is a conviction which I can't imagine he's going to get - a NCCC student was quoted in a recent article that he felt the Duke students should go to prison whether they did it or not in order to achieve justice for all that has gone on before - Nifong will obviously never please this kid and now the people who are willing to look at with an open mind have to be questioning his judgement as well


It's an all around lose-lose situation. Duke kids get off, there'll be cries of racism, class-ism etc etc. Duke kids get convicted then they were railroaded by political correctness and a pandering, politically motivated DA. Everyone has already lost in this case, including the truth.

[WHEELAX2]

Interesting commentary I heard on the radio about the political aspects. The commentator made similar suggestions as Lax-A-Tive and then discussed how they are backfiring - some people won't be happy unless there is a conviction which I can't imagine he's going to get - a NCCC student was quoted in a recent article that he felt the Duke students should go to prison whether they did it or not in order to achieve justice for all that has gone on before - Nifong will obviously never please this kid and now the people who are willing to look at with an open mind have to be questioning his judgement as well


in order to achive justice for everything that has gone on before, we need to look at how out of control our media is, and how we allow our public officials to bring the trial to the media..

also, if any justice is to be done, and if this is indeed a hoax, the accusor should stand trial for reporting a false incident and purjury..

[Marty]

in order to achive justice for everything that has gone on before, we need to look at how out of control our media is, and how we allow our public officials to bring the trial to the media....

Agreed - although looking at how out of control our media is and fixing it are two very different things - the latter being borderline impossible

also, if any justice is to be done, and if this is indeed a hoax, the accusor should stand trial for reporting a false incident and purjury..

Again agreed - if this is a hoax, not only has she done a disservice to the kids at Duke, but also to all women who actually do get raped that will now find themselves treated with greater skepticism

[pclax41]

if this is a hoax, not only has she done a disservice to the kids at Duke, but also to all women who actually do get raped that will now find themselves treated with greater skepticism

never looked at it that way but ur 100% right... its a "boy that cried wolf" scenerio

[Eboni]

However, if the story is true that she has a prior history of being raped or sexually abused when she was 17 years old, then that could explain some "childhood" baggage as to what has lead her down the path she has taken. Also, there are people who do not even know those Duke lacrosse players and are supporting them 100%. The least her mother could do is be quiet and not pimp her daughter’s situation. If her mother is on talk shows (of all venues), that could be indicative of a lack of mother-daughter bond, and even go as far as suggesting neglect by her mother growing up. This kind of emotional neglect would lead young girls into the arms of strange men who shower them with attention, though not for the girl's own good. There would be this need void of wanting to be wanted syndrome, a need superficially fulfilled as an exotic dancer, where she is showered with attention and all eyes are on her. People can be really lower level animals when they sense easy, low self-esteem prey by taking advantage of young women like her.

It is a basic human developmental need to find belonging and teenagers have these feelings hit them hardest, putting themselves in peer-induced nightmarish situations in high school and college. It is a tough time discovering who you are, why you’re here, and if anybody “out there” loves you for who you are. For many kids, sororities, fraternities, clubs, etc. help assuage the need for belonging.

People drop charges for a myriad of reasons, with one such reason being not wanting to have to repeat and relive the trauma over and over again. It is possible that the young woman could be in a corner somewhere wanting to drop the charges, not over whether a rape occurred or not, but because like so many other people, she would want the nightmare to end.

However, abuse begets abuse and if she does not face her nightmare, she may not be able to acknowledge that she may actually need counseling to lift her off the emotionally destructive track she may be on and she’ll find herself in a similar situation a few years from now. Her decisions are not just affecting herself, but also her children, who she may be unwittingly setting up to go down the same path as she.

I hope for her sake, that she is telling the truth and finding the strength to face up to her demons and get counseling.

I think the guys were really poor sports if they actually roughed her out of the money, especially if they saw any part of her at all, misled her in the first place that there was only going to be around 5 guys there, and got out of hand taunting the use of a broom.

[gctales]

gctales: Do you really believe Nifong ever thought his evidence was rock solid. I think he has been pandering to the Durham community since day one. He wants to be re-elected and he doesn't care a thing about evidence or justice. I think it's interesting how the lynch mob mentality has crossed over to the people who complain about it the most. Race and class envy needs to put aside and everyone should hope that the truth eventually comes out. With all the evidence in favor of Seligmann, Nifong should be disbarred for pursuing charges against him. He is an embarrasement to the legal profession and that's sinking pretty low.

I would say it would appear to me (on the outside) that he thought it was more solid than it appears right now. Having said that, I am sure that htere is evidence that both sides are not leaking to the press at this time...

Regardless, I agree politics has lcearly come into it and some people have unrealistic opinions (they should go to jail whether or not they did it, etc).

Unfortunately, I think the worst that would happen to Nifong is that he won't be re-elected.

[Lax-A-Tive]

A lot off the subject but does anyone know what Duke plans to do about a lacrosse team/season next year? What about their summer camps? Just a couple of thoughts. Everyone attending this year's final four should show solidarity for the Duke players and coaches. How about a "We want Duke" chant. I'd love to see/hear that on national tv. Next, if Duke isn't going to have a team next year, I hope teams around the country will be receptive to taking their players. Coaches, give these guys a break. Lastly, tell all your friends in Durham to vote for anyone but Nifong.

[phoenix-32]

How about a "We want Duke" chant. I'd love to see/hear that on national tv. Next, if Duke isn't going to have a team next year, I hope teams around the country will be receptive to taking their players. Coaches, give these guys a break. Lastly, tell all your friends in Durham to vote for anyone but Nifong.

its not the most profound statement, but im getting a duke lax shirt online. im gunna sport that thing like crazy

[phoenix-32]

also, it was just announced that duke will resume NCAA play next season.

[Lax-A-Tive]

Nifong's comment that the defense attorneys want him removed because they are "afraid to go up against me" is just another example of how far off base this guy is. With the evidence that Seligmann supposedly has, assuming it is true, I'd like to try the case and I'm still in high school. Unfortunately, it appears that Nifong won't back down in the face of compelling evidence. Maybe they should be afraid, the guy seems to have no concerns for what is right or wrong and that in itself makes him a little dangerous. Maybe after today's election, he will re-evaluate the cases and make the right decision, not the "what's in his best interest decision."

[OldGoalie]

also, it was just announced that duke will resume NCAA play next season.

Where was that announced? All I saw was the recommendation by the committee to resume next season. The President of Duke said they still need a few weeks to review it. Did I miss something?

[Marty]

No you have it correct
Where was that announced? All I saw was the recommendation by the committee to resume next season. The President of Duke said they still need a few weeks to review it. Did I miss something?

[roycegracie47]

Where was that announced? All I saw was the recommendation by the committee to resume next season. The President of Duke said they still need a few weeks to review it. Did I miss something?
It's more along the lines of 2 of the 5 committees are recommending the teams operations be resumed for 07, the other 3 committes not having reported their findings etc. The main reasoning being that campus wide alcohol regulations were not being enforced so that they couldn't just single out one group. Also these were decided upon excluding the rape incident and court case, at least by these 2 groups.

[Marty]

If Nifong loses the election, is he off the case?

[WHEELAX2]

If Nifong loses the election, is he off the case?


well, usually, with politics, the term of the incumbent will end on a specific date (the new term starts when the old term ends),, if he resumes his post, his new term will begin on X date while he finishes this term.. if he is ousted, he most likely would resume his term until the newly elected official takes over on the set date of the start of their term..

by the way the vote today is the primary where usually 2 candidates or more are selected to run head to head..

I would suspect that his term in office would end around memorial day weekend?? and the new term would start somewhere around there.. just speculating on the length and dates of terms.

I would suspect that this case should last a few months, so if he is ousted, he may not be able to continue with the case. unfortunately DAs do not handle cases that often. they usually handle the high profile cases.. the rest of their time is spent deligating responsibilities to the ADAs

[BuckWyld]

I don't really understand why anyone cares about supporting one side or the other in this unless they know them personally. Aside from hoping that if they are guilty they are punished and if they are innocent they are not what does it matter to me?

[phoenix-32]

Where was that announced? All I saw was the recommendation by the committee to resume next season. The President of Duke said they still need a few weeks to review it. Did I miss something?

sorry, you were right. i miss-read a quote on espn.com from the law professor heading up one of the five investigations.

my bad

[Lax-A-Tive]

BuckWyld: In a way, you are correct. If the parties charged committed the alleged crime, then they should be punished. If they didn't, then they should be exonerated. However, I think you miss the really frustrating point of this whole matter. That is, the players and coach being punished before the police had an opportunity to do their job. Due process is something that we in the US hold/should hold close and dear to our hearts. The problem here is that due process was the last thing on anyone's mind. Duke punished the players and the coach before they had enough information to form an educated decision. The Durham community, which is made up of a large number of african-americans, wanted to punish the team before they had all the facts. You would think if anyone should be sympathetic about being abused by the justice system, it would be the african-american community. The media punished the team before they had all the facts. Nifong told everyone they were guilty before he had all the facts. Everyone should have waited and let the police handle the investigation. I sure as hell don't know what happened that night, so I'm willing to wait. Rape victims need special handling and deserved to be treated with respect. The same should be afforded the alleged perpetators. Everyone jumped the gun. As more evidence is coming to light, I think we all can see that a "wait and see" approach would have been a much better way of handling the situation.

[BuckWyld]

The Duke coach being pressured to step down and the season being suspended have nothing to do with due process, those were decisions made by the Duke administration, at this point I see no reason to assume that due process will be circumvented, the boys have a lawyer and will see their day in court unless they cut a deal or the charges are dropped. I might agree that the administration moved too quickly but in their defense they need to be conserned with the reputation of the entire university, and part of one lacrosse season is not high on their list of priorities.

As far as Nifong, I think he is a symptom of our criminal justice system being broken rather than a problem. The real problem is that the police and prosicutors are rewarded (re-elected, promoted etc) for sending somene to jail not for finding justice. No one ever says Mr. Prosecutor did a really great job they way he dropped charges on Mr A, what you do hear is Mr Prosecutor didn't get a conviction on Mr A or crime B so he is not doing a good job. Or you hear Mr Prosecutor convicted X number of people he is doing a good job. The same goes for the police no one ever says "I am glad the police waited to arrest the right person" but you frequently hear the police getting commended for a quick arrest or being critisized for not making a quick arrest.
Anyway I don't think that these guys are getting railroaded, and I don't particularly support either side, hopefully our justice system can get it right dispite the poor start.

[Canada_Lax]

they were just talking about duke on pardon the interruption.

[phoenix-32]

they were just talking about duke on pardon the interruption.

PTI has been my favorite show for a couple of years now. they've been coving the duke story pretty well since it broke.

unrelated to PTI, Nifong (the DA) just won the democratic primary.

[bka]

A new website was created last week for those who are sympathetic to the Duke Lacrosse Players. If you think injustice was done to these guys, you may want to visit. Below is the link:

Friends of Duke Lacrosse (http://www.friendsofdukelacrosse.blogspot.com)