Kicking under a clamped ball....

[3rdPersonPlural]

Goalie clamps a ball outside the crease, keeping his feet in the circle.

Attackman tries to release the ball from the clamp by kicking the goalie's crosse off of the ball.

I admit that I missed the whole incident as I was working a one man mechanic and chugging along behind the fast break, but the goalie's coach seemed convinced that kicking a crosse off of a clamp was verboten, and I don't recall the issue being addressed in my rulebook (Federation, if it matters).

What is the correct call, had I actually been there?

[stinisonfire]

Free clear defense for kicking the goalie's crosse.

[3rdPersonPlural]

Thanks, Stin. I had apparently missed that article in the rule book. Mebbe if I had seen the infraction, I would have recalled the rule, but probably not.

[LaxRef]

Free clear defense for kicking the goalie's crosse.

Incorrect. The goalie does not have possession, so you cannot award a free clear. Repeat: a clamp is not possession. It is legal to check the goalie's crosse when it the crosse is exended outside the crease subject to the usual "within 5 yards of a loose ball" condition.

However, it is not legal to kick the crosse. That's interference: award the ball to the defense 20 yards laterally from the goal.

[mrmccool]

Incorrect. The goalie does not have possession, so you cannot award a free clear. Repeat: a clamp is not possession. It is legal to check the goalie's crosse when it the crosse is exended outside the crease subject to the usual "within 5 yards of a loose ball" condition.

However, it is not legal to kick the crosse. That's interference: award the ball to the defense 20 yards laterally from the goal.
Wait, so any ball the goalie clamps outside the crease is still fair game to the rest of the attackmen? I would assume then that a clamped ball within the crease is off limits, yet still not subject to a free clear. correct?

[3rdPersonPlural]

A clamp is not possession, McCool. If a keeper clamps the ball you can still play the ball, just not his body.

A goalie will usually clamp the ball and quickly drag it into his lair (the crease), where he can consume it at his lesiure.

[3rdPersonPlural]

I would assume then that a clamped ball within the crease is off limits, yet still not subject to a free clear. correct?

Nope. Interfering with the keeper while he's in the crease is interference and a free clear. This includes his body while he's got a ball clamped outside of the crease, and his stick while he's playing the ball or has possession in the crease.

The tricky part is if the ball is loose in the crease and an attackman reaches for it, and then the keeper checks his stick. If the keeper was reaching for the ball and connected with the attackman's stick on the way, it's interference. If the keeper was strictly checking the stick, it's no foul.

Aren't you glad you don't have to figure that one out ?

[mrmccool]

Nope. Interfering with the keeper while he's in the crease is interference and a free clear. This includes his body while he's got a ball clamped outside of the crease, and his stick while he's playing the ball or has possession in the crease.

The tricky part is if the ball is loose in the crease and an attackman reaches for it, and then the keeper checks his stick. If the keeper was reaching for the ball and connected with the attackman's stick on the way, it's interference. If the keeper was strictly checking the stick, it's no foul.

Aren't you glad you don't have to figure that one out ?
definately. We have the final-four of my league this weekend and I cant wait to go clamp-whacking for a couple stolen goals. I really should read a rule book outside the crosse specifications section...

[LaxRef]

Nope. Interfering with the keeper while he's in the crease is interference and a free clear. This includes his body while he's got a ball clamped outside of the crease, and his stick while he's playing the ball or has possession in the crease

This is incorrect. Loose-ball goalie interference or loose-ball crease violation is never a free clear. The only way you can get a free clear on one of those is if the goalie has possession.

[Got Aloha]

Sorry 3PP it is a free clear only if the Goalie has possession, otherwise defensive ball lateral the goal.

[LaxRef]

Wait, so any ball the goalie clamps outside the crease is still fair game to the rest of the attackmen? I would assume then that a clamped ball within the crease is off limits, yet still not subject to a free clear. correct?

You are spot on here. You can't check the GK stick when it is in the cylinder of the crease ever. If the stick is outside the crease and the GK has the ball and is still in contact with the ground in the crease, you cannot check his stick then, either. But for a loose ball outside the crease--and a clamp is still a loose ball--you can check provided the crosse is within 5 yards of the loose ball.

[3rdPersonPlural]

I just went and got my rulebook out of my trunk.

As one might have expected, LR is correct.

Then I inventoried all of the free clears I've granteddue to GI. Fortunately, all of them involved possession.

It doesn't happen much. Probably that explains my fogginess in this regard.

I suppose that coaches just forbid their players from touching anything in the crease, which is fine with me.



One related question. I've always let the incidental contact that happens now and then when a goalie's stick encounters an attackman's stick during the followthrough of a clearing pass because possession is ended when the ball leaves the stick. If the release is unaffected (or so goes my reasoning), then the contact with the goalie's stick after he released his pass is legal.

Am I thinking in line with the rule?

[3rdPersonPlural]

Sorry 3PP it is a free clear only if the Goalie has possession, otherwise defensive ball lateral the goal.

Yeah,....... but I was right about the ward! The rulebook does NOT allow an attackman to 'secure position once'. Not when he is being engaged in a body check by a defender. Certainly not when securing position involves pushing off a defender with his free arm.

I clarified this with Leon yesterday.

[roycegracie47]

One related question. I've always let the incidental contact that happens now and then when a goalie's stick encounters an attackman's stick during the followthrough of a clearing pass because possession is ended when the ball leaves the stick. If the release is unaffected (or so goes my reasoning), then the contact with the goalie's stick after he released his pass is legal.

Am I thinking in line with the rule?
I too would like to hear an answer to this, because as a crease attack it tends to come up every once in a while.

[blindbill]

This, I believe, should be a "play on" unless the GK has a completely exagurated follow through. "Play on" ends if pass is caught and/or no advantage is gained. If pass not caught, GK interference and possession 1 step over at the "X".

[Got Aloha]

I know whenever I have a rule question I go to a Dad of one of the players who has never played, coached, or refereed Lacrosse. Sometimes I question your thought processes but I still love that dorky looking timer on your arm.

[LaxRef]

One related question. I've always let the incidental contact that happens now and then when a goalie's stick encounters an attackman's stick during the followthrough of a clearing pass because possession is ended when the ball leaves the stick. If the release is unaffected (or so goes my reasoning), then the contact with the goalie's stick after he released his pass is legal.

Am I thinking in line with the rule?

The rules stand mute on this issue. Standard practice is to give the GK interference call if there's contact on the immediate and normal follow-through, but there's nothing in the rules to clarify (they talk about "in the act of passing," I think, and you could argue whether the follow-through is part of the pass or not).

[Got Aloha]

Any contact on a normal follow through gets a free clear. Maybe the Goalie had to alter the path of the ball or strength of the throw to avoid the pesky, little attackman who, through poor coaching, is standing right in front of the Goalie during the outlet pass. Yes it is a play on until outlet pass is dropped or never made.

[3rdPersonPlural]

I know whenever I have a rule question I go to a Dad of one of the players who has never played, coached, or refereed Lacrosse. Sometimes I question your thought processes but I still love that dorky looking timer on your arm.

You shouldn't. As you might recall, said league admin was the one who had the nutty idea about attackers being allowed one opportunity to 'set' their arm before any ward got called. One of our more senior refs didn't disagree with him.

I believe that it is courteous to clarify rules for people who go to the effort of trying to learn them.

[3rdPersonPlural]

This happened in a middle school game, and truth is stranger than fiction:

Keeper leaves the crease with the ball and runs upfield.

Attack checks the ball out of the stick and it rolls into the crease.

Keeper apparently remembered something about 'in and out' rules so he stops OUTSIDE of the crease and begins to rake the ball out.

An attacker checked the goalie's stick (but not his body) and another attackman flicks the ball into the cage.

I puzzled for a moment about the proper call for keeper outside of the crease and the ball trapped by same inside of the crease, figured what the heck, and called the goal good.

I'm still baffled by this scenario. Any help?

[LaxRef]

This happened in a middle school game, and truth is stranger than fiction:

Keeper leaves the crease with the ball and runs upfield.

Attack checks the ball out of the stick and it rolls into the crease.

Keeper apparently remembered something about 'in and out' rules so he stops OUTSIDE of the crease and begins to rake the ball out.

An attacker checked the goalie's stick (but not his body) and another attackman flicks the ball into the cage.

I puzzled for a moment about the proper call for keeper outside of the crease and the ball trapped by same inside of the crease, figured what the heck, and called the goal good.

I'm still baffled by this scenario. Any help?

Goal is good. Keeper has no special priviliges when he has part of his body touching outside the crease and no part of his body touching inside the crease. They could hav body checked them if they wanted to.

Hopefully the goalie learned that he can't enter the crease in possession of the ball.

[3rdPersonPlural]

The devil of doubt that I had was that the scored on coach claimed that the goalie had the ball clamped in the crease, so no one could check his stick.

I told him a less articulate version of your post, but he was unconvinced and I was less than confident that I was right. Thanks for the confirmation.

[laxattack17]

Any contact on a normal follow through gets a free clear. Maybe the Goalie had to alter the path of the ball or strength of the throw to avoid the pesky, little attackman who, through poor coaching, is standing right in front of the Goalie during the outlet pass. Yes it is a play on until outlet pass is dropped or never made.

Poor coaching?

Although it is risky to stand near the crease rather than riding a defender, there was one time when I actually blocked the ball without getting hit with the follow through. The goalie got it back, and then dropped it behind the crease. I ran to get it and he tried to bodycheck me so i dodged him and got the ball and we kept possession.

But I admit it is kind of risky.

[WoodDuck14]

OK, let me get this strait! if the ball is outside the crease and the keep has clamped and is inside the crease an attackmen can check his stick?!?!?! this is against everything i have ever been taught as a lacrosse player about the goalie.

[LaxRef]

OK, let me get this strait! if the ball is outside the crease and the keep has clamped and is inside the crease an attackmen can check his stick?!?!?! this is against everything i have ever been taught as a lacrosse player about the goalie.

Then you have been taught wrong. See:

A.R. 77. Loose ball in crease. Goalkeeper B1 has his crosse over the ball and is about to draw back for a tennis pickup. A1 checks through B1’s crosse from front, claiming he was playing a loose ball. RULING: Interference by A1, play-on. Play continues or ball is awarded to a defensive player outside the attack area.

A.R. 78. There is a loose ball in the crease. Goalkeeper B1 has his crosse over the ball and is about to draw for tennis pickup. From the side of the crease, A1 pokes his crosse at the loose ball; and, as B1 draws the goalkeeper’s crosse back, contact is made with A1’s crosse. RULING: Interference by A1, play-on. Play continues or ball is awarded to a defensive player outside the attack area.

A.R. 79. Loose ball in front of crease. Goalkeeper B1 reaches out to pick up ball, and A1 checks B1’s crosse. RULING: Legal play. Goalkeeper does not have possession of the ball.

A.R. 80. There is a loose ball in front of the crease. B1 goalkeeper reaches out and gains possession of the ball. A1 checks B1’s crosse while it is still outside of the crease. RULING: Interference, play-on. Play continues or award ball to Team B at center of field.

Similar (identical?) rules in NFHS.

[CoachRob]

Please see this thread for a handy guide to GK interference that I wrote up:

http://www.lacrosseforums.com/showthread.php?t=41330

[ballenref]

Please see this thread for a handy guide to GK interference that I wrote up:

http://www.lacrosseforums.com/showthread.php?t=41330

Thanks CR. With your permission I'll copy and share with my association.

[CoachRob]

Thanks CR. With your permission I'll copy and share with my association.

By all means, that's why I created it. Spread the word if possible.

[Woodenstick]

OK, let me get this strait! if the ball is outside the crease and the keep has clamped and is inside the crease an attackmen can check his stick?!?!?! this is against everything i have ever been taught as a lacrosse player about the goalie.

Woodie, I wouldn't worry about getting this wrong, I think this is the most misunderstood rule in lacrosse, at least of the rules dealing with things that happen on a frequent basis.

[WoodDuck14]

Then you have been taught wrong. See:



Similar (identical?) rules in NFHS.

You didn't answer my question, that said he reaches out to scoop it up, i'm saying if he has clamped already and is about to rake it into the crease, are the attack allowed to check or kick his stick.

[CTLaxer]

You didn't answer my question, that said he reaches out to scoop it up, i'm saying if he has clamped already and is about to rake it into the crease, are the attack allowed to check or kick his stick.

Reread the thread, the answer is already provided.