Player Not Listed In Scorebook

[boxlaxman]

Happened last night...

Home team coach challenges a goal scored based on goal scorer not listed in book. There was no question that this player was on the team as he is widely known in the area. Appeared to be a mistake by some combination of managers (home and away).

I allowed the goal to stand, added the player to the book and moved on.

My reasoning was that the home team scorekeeper, nor the head coach, ever verified the book with the visiting head coach so how could anyone other than he, know it was correct.

Any thoughts on this?? I know what the rulebook says about players being listed in advance and a technical foul being issued for an added player BUT, who has responsibility for making sure the VISITING roster is accurate in the OFFICIAL (home) scorebook??

Thanks...

[CoachRob]

Good question, and i really don' t know. I would suspect the visiting coach is responsible for being certain his players are properly listed, just a a baseball coach is responsible for submitting his roster card prior to the game to the official.

You are correct that this is a technical violation, and it is not listed in the Goal Not Counted section. I think you could make a case that the goal is disallowed, however, as only players may score, and since he was not listed, then he is not a player at that time. You would then add him to the list, assess a technical, and he is NOW a player. The opponent then starts with the ball 20 yards lateral to their goal. I think that's how I would have handled it. So, no goal by my rules as he wasn't a player.

But the rules don't specifically address this AFAICS. Maybe this SHOULD be added to the Goal Not Counted section because it is probably more common than some of the other items in the list.

[boxlaxman]

BUT..as you point out, in baseball you MUST give a lineup to the umpire. We have no protocol for verifying the book. Considering the home book is the official book, doesn't the home scorekeeper ultimately have the repsonsibility for verifying with the HEAD Coach that the roster is correct.

Practically speaking, it is uaually 2 HS girls trading books while gossiping. Is this really a reason for a goal to be dissallowed?? We always argue spirit and intent and I don't think this was the intent.

[LaxRef]

Personally, I think this whole rule makes little sense. Unless there's some tricky thing coaches are doing to try to gain an advantage by not listing players, just add the guy and move on with the game.

I would not disallow the goal since "Not listed in scorebook" does not appear in the "Goal not allowed" section. However, I might grant the ball to the home team instead of doing a faceoff after the goal so that I am in fact enforcing the technical foul for adding the player to the book. But it does smell like the home coach was trying to pull one over on us, since his team has the book and he jumped right on the fact that the guy wasn't listed after he scored (and you say he's a big scorer).

[CoachRob]

Well boxlaxman, now you have two different opinons. Take your pick and take your chances. It is entirely likely the home coach did NOT know that player was not listed until he went to add a slash in the "Goal" column of the scorebook, and did not find the player.

In our games, we always ask both head coaches to verify the accuracy of the scorebook prior to the game, but that's because I am the scorer and as an official know the importance. Typically, we don't keep track of opposing players stats OTHER than goals and penalties, so we never know if they are in the game legally until they score or commit a foul. Ground balls and shots we do NOT track for our opponent as we do for our own players, so if he were not listed and had 100 shots, we wouldn't know it unless one went in. I don't think the home coach had any sneaky attempt here, but I really cannot say for sure.

[Bobsch]

When I played, coached, and reffed in Germany, each coach had to submit a list that he signed prior to the game. This was important there, because you had to play a certain number of games to qualify as a player to play for your team in the playoffs and also made sure no one slipped in a player from another team (it also helped that everyone knew eveyone else). The captains and refs also had to sign the gamesheet after the game. The lists and game sheets then went to the league officials, who later verified whether players were eligible for the playoffs or if a team violated any rules.

[boxlaxman]

It is curious why this is not addressed more specifically in the rulebook. At our youth games here, coaches MUST trade rosters prior to the start of the game.

I like the idea of each coach signing and verifying the roster prior to the start of the game. A goal is a sever penalty for a mistake, not a foul. If I felt in an may that there was any malicious intent in anyone's part, I would have handled it differently.

[Bobsch]

I would have done the same thing you did in that case, boxlaxman.

[DanHS]

I think I will add this to discussion with the coaches before the game and eliminate what would be a huge problem in a important game. I wonder how the same two HS girls make so many games.

[Lthomas]

Pages 19,48,51,60 dealing with players not listed in the book. The rule on page 19 says all players must be listed in the book; however, on page 60 there is a situation that says that the coach can enter players in the book subsequent to the start of the game and the only penalty is to call a technical once when one of the late listed players goes into the game. On page 28 is a listing of the reasons when a goal is taken away.

The situation at the your game- you would have permitted the goals, the player could have been listed in the game, call the technical, turn the ball over, no face-off.

[Longpole5435]

boxlaxman, you got it right, at least from the logical perspective. I'm with LR on this one.

[boxlaxman]

Pages 19,48,51,60 dealing with players not listed in the book. The rule on page 19 says all players must be listed in the book; however, on page 60 there is a situation that says that the coach can enter players in the book subsequent to the start of the game and the only penalty is to call a technical once when one of the late listed players goes into the game. On page 28 is a listing of the reasons when a goal is taken away.

The situation at the your game- you would have permitted the goals, the player could have been listed in the game, call the technical, turn the ball over, no face-off.

That's part of the problem. It takes 4 different pages to find all of the info.

My question still remains, who has to CERTIFY the book?? We certify the coaches. Should this be included in that certification??

Our game is going to the dogs (or the Blue Devils depending on your perspective) if we are getting this petty in games.

[Snake~eyes]

This rule simply needs to be removed next year. All its doing is causing a problem and more complication over something that was not an issue in the past.

I recommend removing what tehy added and add one caseplay that talks about if there is a mistake in the book that it will be fixed and no penalty will be asessed.

JMO.

[IBA-Lax]

Was the player listed in the visitors book? If not, technical on the visitors. If he was, then I would have done what you did. If the home coach pressed the issue, could you give him a technical for not providing a scorekeeper?

Rule 2.4.1
It shall be the responsibility of the home coach to see that the playing field is in proper condition for play; that a timekeeper and scorer are on hand with all equipment required by these rules to carry out their respective functions; etc.

If the HS girl lacks the mental capacity to to copy a list of players from the visitors book to the home book, she has no brain, she lacks the equipment necessary. Technical on the home team. (Im kidding, I really appreciate the girls and all they do for us)

[Beacher]

At least in the Canadian mechanics (and this is probably a carry-over from box) the referee would usually check to see that the scoresheet corresponds to the players on the field before the game. Easy to do:count the players listed on the scoresheet, then count the players on the field. If they match up, you should be good to go.