Ball in the crosse and on the ground

[DanHS]

I think there was some discussion of this event but I cannot find the thread and I am not sure we ever resolve it.

A1's crosse is checked legally by B1. There is no reason to believe that the check by B1 or A1's crosse are anything but legal. A1's crosse and the ball go flying (10 yds) and land with the ball in the pocket of the crosse. Stunned silence - everyone freezes not sure what to do. What is racing through my mind is that what ever happens next will be worse that blowing it dead now.

If A1 moves to the crosse and picks it up then he is entering into play without a crosse. If anyone else picks up the crosse then they will have two sticks. If anyone kicks the crosse to dislodge the ball then we have a loose ball foul. There were several other scenarios that all popped into my head and all seemed bad.

A1 moved to the crosse and I blew the play dead. I called IP and awarded the all to B. I cam not sure my partner agreed but we moved on. The coaches for A questioned the call but didn’t disagree.

What should have been done? Would it have mattered if the crosse was face up or down or if the ball was in the pocket or in the back of the pocket?

[Longpole5435]

I think there was some discussion of this event but I cannot find the thread and I am not sure we ever resolve it.

A1's crosse is checked legally by B1. There is no reason to believe that the check by B1 or A1's crosse are anything but legal. A1's crosse and the ball go flying (10 yds) and land with the ball in the pocket of the crosse. Stunned silence - everyone freezes not sure what to do. What is racing through my mind is that what ever happens next will be worse that blowing it dead now.

If A1 moves to the crosse and picks it up then he is entering into play without a crosse. If anyone else picks up the crosse then they will have two sticks. If anyone kicks the crosse to dislodge the ball then we have a loose ball foul. There were several other scenarios that all popped into my head and all seemed bad.

A1 moved to the crosse and I blew the play dead. I called IP and awarded the all to B. I cam not sure my partner agreed but we moved on. The coaches for A questioned the call but didn’t disagree.

What should have been done? Would it have mattered if the crosse was face up or down or if the ball was in the pocket or in the back of the pocket?


A player from A or B could have knocked the ball out with their stick, being a legal play. And I don't know about IP for going to pick up your own stick as long as you don't attempt to do anything but retrieve the crosse. I think you should of let him get the stick.

[eme]

If A moved to pick up his stick, I would have whistled it dead and awarded to B based on "playing w/o crosse" and the quick whistle (no play on) would have cleaned up the situation.

Now, if B kicks A's crosse that lies on the ground with ball in it...if he is attempting to get/dislodge the ball...I have nothing. The "kicking the crosse" rule is meant to cover kicking the crosse when your opponent has possession of his crosse.

But rules don't help us a lot here and I can be convinced otherwise.

[DanHS]

Being picky here and I doubt if there is a good solution. If A can pick up his crosse then anyone kicking or otherwise 'moving' his crosse is hindering him. It should be USC to prevent him from retreiving his crosse which I don't think he can pick up anyway.

Sure hope this doesn't happe again.

[CoachRob]

I think A1 is entitled to pick up his crosse. Whether the ball is in it is irrelevant to me. What should he do, just stand there? And I disagree with eme, in that the kicking a crosse rule does not specify it has to be in the possession of any player. So, I have a technical violation if kicking a crosse on the ground.

In the situation you outline, I wouldn't have blown the whistle unless:
1) the crosse was kicked
2) the opposing team picked it up (a USC as per the case ruling in the NFHS book)
3) player A1 interfered, thus playing without a crosse
4) any other penalty occurred between the dropping of the crosse and the picking it up.

But I believe you need to allow A1 to retrieve his crosse. Now, if he had to enter the crease to retrieve it, that's a whole different story as by doing so, he is violating another rule (crease violation). But picking up a crosse he dropped being illegal? Come on now, that seems a bit wacky.

[DanHS]

CoachRob - are you allowing A1 to pick up his crosse with the ball but not otherwise participate?

[LaxRef]

I think A1 is entitled to pick up his crosse. Whether the ball is in it is irrelevant to me.

Absolutely not! You cannot participate in the play without a crosse. If you do anything that affects the play, even boxing out another player without your crosse, you are guilty of illegal procedure. Going after your stick with the ball in it is clearly participating in the play.

Even if the ball wasn't in the crosse, if your crosse is near a loose ball and you get in anyone's way as you try to retireve it, that's IP. See:

b. Illegal actions with crosse—A player shall not:
(1) Throw his crosse under any circumstances.
(2) Take part in the play of the game in any manner without his crosse, except for substitution.

What should he do, just stand there?

Yes. Or run off the field to sub.

And I disagree with eme, in that the kicking a crosse rule does not specify it has to be in the possession of any player. So, I have a technical violation if kicking a crosse on the ground.

I asked for and got an interpretation on this before: crosse on the ground accidentally kicked, no call. Crosse on the ground deliberately kicked to make it hard for player to retrieve it (OOB, into crease, offsides, or just far away), USC.

[Got Aloha]

I have to go with Coach Rob on this one. What if player A1 drops his stick with the ball in it 20 yards away from other players? He is not allowed to pick up his stick? He must run off the field? Seems kind of "wacky" to me.

[CoachRob]

Absolutely not! You cannot participate in the play without a crosse. If you do anything that affects the play, even boxing out another player without your crosse, you are guilty of illegal procedure. Going after your stick with the ball in it is clearly participating in the play.

Even if the ball wasn't in the crosse, if your crosse is near a loose ball and you get in anyone's way as you try to retireve it, that's IP.

If he gets in another player's way, then I agree. But if he has a clear shot at it and does not interfere in any manner with an opponent, then I simply cannot convince myself that he is interfering in any manner with play without a crosse. If he cuts off B1 in an attempt to get the stick, that is another story. But not if it's laying there and he has a clear shot at it. It's the spirit here, and the spirit says that if he is simply trying to retrieve his stick and does not interfere, I have no call.

Players drop their crosses all the time and retrieve them with little thought, and I don't see this as a problem. The fact the ball is in this particular stick doesn't change my opinion. But how often is this likely to come up? Maybe once every two-three years, so it is more a philosophical discussion than a real life situation.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one LR.

[roycegracie47]

I was thinking along the lines of CoachRob, mainly because a yardsale alaways results in a player retriving their stick without penalty so long as they didn't interfere with the play of the surrounding players (this going with the idea that the ball is now loose). Where I would find the problem is that the ball stayed in the stick after traveling several yards, which one could chalk up to an interesting physics lesson, or maybe player A1 needs his stick checked when the play is blown dead.

[LaxRef]

If he gets in another player's way, then I agree. But if he has a clear shot at it and does not interfere in any manner with an opponent, then I simply cannot convince myself that he is interfering in any manner with play without a crosse. If he cuts off B1 in an attempt to get the stick, that is another story.

I agree that if there is no one else around, he can pick up his stick with the ball in it (although I concur with those who think the opposing coach should be considering requesting an equipment inspection). So, in theory, you are right.

But he didn't just drop the stick in an open area, it was checked out of his hands. In the real world, this is indicative of there being other players in the vicinity, and I have a hard time seeing how he'll be able to retrieve his crosse in this situation without becoming involved in the play, since there will be other players trying to get to the ball. In that situation, he cannot retrieve the crosse.

[Shorelax]

I asked for and got an interpretation on this before: crosse on the ground accidentally kicked, no call. Crosse on the ground deliberately kicked to make it hard for player to retrieve it (OOB, into crease, offsides, or just far away), USC.

What if the crosse was deliberately kicked to remove the ball, putting the ball back in play??

[eme]

Shorelax has my question as well: kicking it to dislodge the ball?

I am with LaxRef on A participating in play by attempting to retrieve his stick with the ball in it.

[DanHS]

I think that I will kick the ball loose myself and yell play-on if this ever happens again.

[shrekjr]

I think that I will kick the ball loose myself and yell play-on if this ever happens again.
That's my favorite answer so far! :chuckle:

[CoachRob]

I think that I will kick the ball loose myself and yell play-on if this ever happens again.

Great idea. To make it convincing, however, you need to trip over it and stumble as if you didn't see it. :bye:

But I think LR and his followers have a point in that it if it is in a contested area, can A1 REALLY get to it w/o interefering with the attempts of others? I don't think so, so I guess he really can NOT pick it up if the enemy is around hunting for the ball. If in the open, then yes. But in a crowded area, I think not. And that's I think how I'll call it if it occurs.