Pay Rate High School games

[Cords]

Officals in Colorado haven't recieved a pay increase nor a milage per diem in three years for high school varsity or JV games. Our govening broad CHSAA ( Colorado High School Athletic Assoication) which tells us our rate of pay is compared able to "football officals. and we know thats a lie. We receveing less than Football officals and running alot more than other football offical. We need your help in bulding a case for a pay increase for next year. Officals in Southern California took action into there own hands and called a strike http://www.latimes.com/sports/highschool/la-spw-hslacrosse25mar25,0,6441335.story?coll=la-headlines-sports-highschool
and we would like to avoid that if possible. So I'm asking my follow officals to e-mail me at cordslax@yahoo.com with the following information to help us build a case before CHSAA:

1.Your state(NY,MD NJ)

2.Your rate of pay the rate of pay for Varsity and JV for 2 men game & 3 men games.

3. Mileage rate.

Thank you for your help in this matter.

Cords

[boxlaxman]

Cords,

I can't speak to the dollar amounts but here in VA, we bid on contract by each school division. As far as I know, we do not get a standard mileage rate for games (although at $3/ gal. for gas, we may need to).

Funny what you say about football. I had this exact conversation with someone the other day. I believe our football officials actually get less per person because there are 5 of them but the cost is higher overall.

I think we get about $55 for JV and $65 for a varsity or somethign like that. Not 100% sure...

[shrekjr]

Texas-

Lacrosse - Youth $40, JV $49, Var $59 (season)/$65 playoffs. Same fee regardless of 2 or 3 man, but fee + 1/2 for one man game. No mileage. High school JV/Var just finished third year of 3 year contract with state association that allowed a $2 increase per year. No increase in youth during the 5 years I've been working but there is talk of going to $50 next year just because of gas prices.

Football - starting this fall, all 3-4 man sub-varsity games (7th grade-JV) will pay $40. In the past, it was up to each school to pay whatever they wanted and ranged from $20-45. 4-5 man Varsity games are messed up because it is "recommended" that pay be based on a percentage of the gate, plus mileage. Up until recently, most schools followed that scale and we might average $50-60 for a smaller high school game and $125-150 for a larger school game. For a big 20,000 fans rivalry type game, we might get $300-400. However, most of the schools have now taken "recommended" to mean they don't have to pay that much and have resorted to paying in the $70-80 range, plus mileage.

[Snake~eyes]

According to the article you get paid different on whether you're a referee or an umpire????? If that is true then I can see that could cause serious issues, where I am you get paid the same.

[3rdPersonPlural]

Cords, I sent you an e-mail on California southern section CIF.

CIF is pricing ref and ump different as well. This is bound to make for discord in the ranks, and headaches for the assigners.

[Woodenstick]

Our salaries in NY are higher, $70/83 for freshman or JV (2/1 man) $91 for varsity. No mileage. No referee differential, heck, both guys are doing the same work.

Youth games pay $40/60 and junior high pays $60/70.

Private schools pay more.

Viva la difference!

[laxfan25]

I gotta move to NY!
Here in Michigan - Varsity - $55 JV - $47.50 MS - $40. Two-man rates, we don't have many 3-man HS crews. One ref - 1.5 times the rate. Ref/Umpire get paid the same. No mileage.

[LaxRef]

I gotta move to NY!
Here in Michigan - Varsity - $55 JV - $47.50 MS - $40. Two-man rates, we don't have many 3-man HS crews. One ref - 1.5 times the rate. Ref/Umpire get paid the same. No mileage.

Are the JV games 12-min stop time quarters?

[Bobsch]

OK, not HS, but for my last game, I got a nice trip, hotel, two parties, and a bottle of single malt whiskey (VERY expensive in Norway). In Germany, I got mileage (from our club) and €15 or so a game from the league (about $18-19) and usually donated it to our club.

[laxfan25]

Are the JV games 12-min stop time quarters?
No, varsity is 12 stop. JV and MS are 10 min stop time.

[tjslax]

Vermont sounds to be on the low end of the Totem Pole. Varsity $50, JV $35. It's not too far to NY though from here.

[LacrosseNoob]

High School Chicago it's $70 if alone $55 if two man, regardless of jv varsity

[CTLaxer]

In AZ, boys varsity officials get $75 a game. Highest paid high school officials in the state when last checked. Lax isn't big out here yet, so pay is one way we get more officials.

[Seattle Wahoo]

In washington, we were at the same pay for six years until last year when we negotiated a three year deal with our high school league and a one year deal with the youth program. The three year package is $50, $55 and $60 per game with a $15 per game contribution to the officials association per game. This year we will add a travel allowance. Our youth pay last year was $40 per ref with an allowance of $5 to the association and a travel allowance of $10, $15 and $20 for r/t mileage of 30, 50 and 100.
The ref dues are $20 and the association expenses including assignor fee is paid for from ref dues and the above per game contributions.
The leagues are comprised of club teams within high schools.

[cslaxplaya11]

Are the JV games 12-min stop time quarters?
jv are 10-min stop quarters unless one team is up by 12 or more then it is run clock, varisty is 12-min

[TXD2LAX]

I know this will most likely be met with anrgy responses, but I honestly feel that High School refs should be paid on a sliding scale based on an average score that is given by each team's coach. This way refs could hear what they are doing well, and not so well from both teams. Afterall the teams are the customers here. This would obviously discourage refs from being onesided in their calls (I am not saying all refs do this, but we all know those that do.) It would also allow the refs to identify areas that could use retooling. It also puts the coaches on the spot to stop whining to others and actually tell the ref what they feel. In Texas the refs really have no idea about problems until the end of the season, and by then what good is it. There are some VERY good refs in Texas, VERY GOOD. I think they should be rewarded for keeping the game in control, managing the players and coaches, as well as applying the rules equally for both teams. I also feel there are some refs that have lost sight of who they are out there for, THE PLAYERS. If a ref does not conduct himself in a professional and unbiased manner, I do not think he deserves the same pay as those that do.

[LaxRef]

I know this will most likely be met with anrgy responses, but I honestly feel that High School refs should be paid on a sliding scale based on an average score that is given by each team's coach.

How many times have you gotten a lousy evaluation from a coach who was sure you didn't know the rules when in fact the coach was the one who didn't know the rules? How often does the losing coach try to pin the loss on the officials for no other reason than that they're a conventient target.

This way refs could hear what they are doing well, and not so well from both teams. Afterall the teams are the customers here. This would obviously discourage refs from being onesided in their calls (I am not saying all refs do this, but we all know those that do.) It would also allow the refs to identify areas that could use retooling. It also puts the coaches on the spot to stop whining to others and actually tell the ref what they feel. In Texas the refs really have no idea about problems until the end of the season, and by then what good is it.

While you make some good points, I don't see what any of it has to do with the pay scale. Establish a better evaluation procedure.

BTW, I believe coaches shouldn't be able to evaluate officials on anything unless the coaches can pass a rules test. Otherwise, their comments about the officials' rules knowledge and judgment have no credibility.

There are some VERY good refs in Texas, VERY GOOD. I think they should be rewarded for keeping the game in control, managing the players and coaches, as well as applying the rules equally for both teams. I also feel there are some refs that have lost sight of who they are out there for, THE PLAYERS. If a ref does not conduct himself in a professional and unbiased manner, I do not think he deserves the same pay as those that do.

Well, I'll go you one better and say that he doesn't deserve to be an official. But institute a sliding scale for pay based on coaches' evaluations and you'll have no officials. I'll tell you that I'm not going to bother officiating if I don't know how much I'll be making each game.

Oh, and you're ignoring the obvious conflict of interest. Suppose we charged for movies by letting people watch the movie first and then they paid what they thought it was worth? Do you think that business model would work for the production companies?

[TXD2LAX]

LaxRef, I understand your points, but as the customer should I be satisfied with the service I get because that is all I am going to get. I do believe coaches SHOULD have to pass the rules test as well. I just want to know what can we do in an area with a limited number of officials. What goal do officials have to shoot for if there is no sliding scale. Like I said there are some VERY GOOD refs in Texas, but on the flipside there are some that it would be no love lost if they were not there. Am I supposed to keep paying those refs game after game year after year and get the same crappy service? I am a volunteer. I spend countless hours on lacrosse, and not just for my child's team, but for the entire lacrosse community. It is always the refs that speak about the money issue. So I think that a sliding pay scale based on preformance is one of the few ways we can help our own situation. Just because there is a limited number of refs doesn't mean I should just shut up and take whatever the officials want to give....or does it????

[spenny]

refs are like the supreme court, you have to give them the job and let them do it even when its unpopular, otherwise BAD things are going to happen

[RYU]

TXD2LAX, the answers to most of your questions lie within your own posts.

...as the customer should I be satisfied with the service I get because that is all I am going to get... Just because there is a limited number of refs doesn't mean I should just shut up and take whatever the officials want to give....or does it????Sorry, but until you have more refs available than they are reffing jobs to assign, then yes, you are going to have to take whatever you get. I'm not trying to justify poor officiating, but that's the supply & demand reality of it.

I just want to know what can we do in an area with a limited number of officials.Help recruit more officials. Better yet, become one yourself. If you positively can't make the time for it, then try to recruit parents, former players, even your own players. I believe most areas will allow HS students to ref MS/Youth games.

What goal do officials have to shoot for if there is no sliding scale.There is in a way a scale already in place. Lower level games pay less than higher level ones (e.g., MS vs college). If a ref wants to get assigned to higher paying &/or more competative & interesting games, he has to cut his teeth on the lower level ones first.

Other than that, it's matters of personal pride & self-improvement. Being a ref is a lot like being a player in that it takes a lot practice and experience to get better. Good refs are always quizzing themselves so they'll know what to do in 'X' situation, just like what you see in this forum. I don't care how long you've played or coached, until you seriously don the stripes, it's a whole new game you have to learn.

...on the flipside there are some that it would be no love lost if they were not there. Am I supposed to keep paying those refs game after game year after year and get the same crappy service?There comes a point where you have to decide, 'is this ref(s) so bad I'd rather have my game reffed solo or w/ none at all?' If the opposing coach agrees w/ you, then you can petition to have your game reffed solo or ref your game yourselves (& save money in the process).

I am a volunteer. I spend countless hours on lacrosse, and not just for my child's team, but for the entire lacrosse community. It is always the refs that speak about the money issue.Most officials I know are former players &/or coaches. You should take an informal survey and ask them, among playing, coaching, & reffing, which do they like best & least. Volunteer coaching is an admirable thing to do, but volunteer reffing (by qualified officials anyway) is virtually unheard of. Who would work for free, when it's one's job to be a constant target for criticism? Add to that, refs are required to go through a USL training & certification process, while coaches aren't required to have any training or qualifications (some do, some don't).

In a nutshell, refs are in a position to bargain their pay, b/c so few are willing to do it, and even among the ones who do, most would rather be doing something else.

I don't mean to imply you have no recourse. If you have problems w/ a certain ref(s), let your local officiating association know about them. The more specific you can be, the better. Complaining in broad terms comes off as sour grapes on your part. Detail specific calls blown & mistakes. If you capture them on video, all the better. As long as your officiating association has a plurality of members who care about the game and improving their quality of officiating, then they will do something about it if your complaints are valid.

[spenny]

I am a volunteer. I spend countless hours on lacrosse, and not just for my child's team, but for the entire lacrosse community. It is always the refs that speak about the money issue.

i coach in northern virginia, and ive never been paid for it. ive gotten some nice gifts, but never been paid.

as a coach i get 2 benefits, i i choose where i coach, i dont get forced to drive all over northern Va for lacrosse, my practices and half my games are about a mile from my house. not at a different field every time,

second and most importatntly, i dont have a bunch of fans (who have no idea what the rules are and have even less impartiality) screaming that i'm "blowing the game" or that i'm favoring one side over the other, or god forbid, threatened with physical violence (i havent heard it happen with lax, but it happens all the time in other sports)

without the stripes, we arent playing/coaching/watching, so they are worth every penny.

my favorite ref quote: i'll call a perfect game when you play one.

[TXD2LAX]

i coach in northern virginia, and ive never been paid for it. ive gotten some nice gifts, but never been paid.

as a coach i get 2 benefits, i i choose where i coach, i dont get forced to drive all over northern Va for lacrosse, my practices and half my games are about a mile from my house. not at a different field every time,

second and most importatntly, i dont have a bunch of fans (who have no idea what the rules are and have even less impartiality) screaming that i'm "blowing the game" or that i'm favoring one side over the other, or god forbid, threatened with physical violence (i havent heard it happen with lax, but it happens all the time in other sports)

without the stripes, we arent playing/coaching/watching, so they are worth every penny.

my favorite ref quote: i'll call a perfect game when you play one.

As could be expected all of these comments are essentially a wall put up by the refs/ This wall they build is what keeps things from getting better. I am not a coach or an official. I spend my time trying to grow and nurture the game for all ages in Houston. I am working on a solution that would be beneficial for everyone, including refs. But when all of the comments from the refs are like the ones I have been given in this forum it shows that the refs themselves are not willing to do things to make it better. The refs assume it is everyone else that needs to change.

[LaxRef]

As could be expected all of these comments are essentially a wall put up by the refs/ This wall they build is what keeps things from getting better. I am not a coach or an official. I spend my time trying to grow and nurture the game for all ages in Houston. I am working on a solution that would be beneficial for everyone, including refs. But when all of the comments from the refs are like the ones I have been given in this forum it shows that the refs themselves are not willing to do things to make it better. The refs assume it is everyone else that needs to change.

What a bunch of rubbish. You completely ignored this comment:

Suppose we charged for movies by letting people watch the movie first and then they paid what they thought it was worth? Do you think that business model would work for the production companies?

The fact is, you will have few if any officials if you try to employ this business model. If it worked, it would get used much more often. If you had a choice between two jobs, one where they paid you a set amount and one where the boss decided how much he thought your day's work was worth each day, which would you pick? Keep in mind that the boss gets to keep any money he doesn't pay you.

There's also a problem with coaches being responsible for giving "extra" money to officials; it smells like a bribe, and you know there are coaches who would try to use it that way.

In addition, because officiating is almost always a second job, it is even more likely that people will tell you to get bent if you try to pay them on a sliding scale.

One possible exception: if you're already paying $60 per game, keep paying $60 but give bonuses based on good evaluations. But not evaluations from the coaches, who are completely biased ("That official made a call that cost us the game—even though it really was a slash—so I'm giving him a bad evaluation"), but by paid, trained evaluators. These should be top-level, certified officials, not people who don't know anything about officiating (90% of coaches have no idea which official is supposed to be watching what, where they're supposed to be, etc.; plus, we already know how much most coaches know about the rules).

So, if you want to give the top officials bonuses, great. But you can't dock them from baseline, and you can't have coaches decide who gets them.

Besides, the point has already been made that the poorer officials tend to get the lower-paying games—or no games at all—when you have a decent number of officials. And if the teams are the employers, as you state, then the teams are responsible for recruiting more officials if you don't have enough. But most coaches would rather complain about the officiating than do anything to improve it (we have an evaluation program here, and historically the coaches evaluate about 10% of the games).

[laxfan25]

Aargh!! Does anyone else ever have the problem where you write a longish response, go to post it and your internet freezes (Not Responding). It is so frustrating. I had written a well-reasoned, thoughtful response and now its all gone. Sigh.
I was having this issue earlier this year, and occasionally had the wisdom to cut and paste to Word before trying to post. No such luck this time. Maybe I'll be in the mood to re-do it later, but you can never recapture the thought thread you were on.

[shrekjr]

Aargh!! Does anyone else ever have the problem where you write a longish response, go to post it and your internet freezes (Not Responding). It is so frustrating. I had written a well-reasoned, thoughtful response and now its all gone. Sigh.
I was having this issue earlier this year, and occasionally had the wisdom to cut and paste to Word before trying to post. No such luck this time. Maybe I'll be in the mood to re-do it later, but you can never recapture the thought thread you were on.
Anything that takes longer than 2-3 minutes to type, I always paste into word or notepad before trying to post.

[TXD2LAX]

LaxRef, when it is the supposed experienced refs that are some of the biggest problems it makes it hard for us to get things rolling in the right direction. As I have stated on this very forum numerous times I am completely for the refs and understand their problems with coaches and such. The problem arises every year when the refs have a list of "demands" and we have absolutely no recourse if we want officials. Examine your own comments. I have yet to see one thing that would be a legitimate thing the refs could do to be better. You talk about evaluations, if it is by another ref it would be tainted or skewed to an officials point of view. We have a hard enough time getting refs for all of the games, so having an evaluator would make it even harder. I agreed with you about having coaches pass the rules test. We have made every concession the refs have put out there year after year. I just think it is high time for the refs to do the same. The refs have their own association and should be responsible for recruiting more. They get raises with every new contract, yet some of the same problems continue. I know that the players have made themselves better. The Clubs have worked hard to make themselves bigger and stronger. The facilities have gotten better. All of this and the officiating has stalled. It takes an effort from everyone involved to make the sport continue to grow in the non-traditional areas. I was just implying it is the refs time to start as well.

[LaxRef]

LaxRef, when it is the supposed experienced refs that are some of the biggest problems it makes it hard for us to get things rolling in the right direction. As I have stated on this very forum numerous times I am completely for the refs and understand their problems with coaches and such. The problem arises every year when the refs have a list of "demands" and we have absolutely no recourse if we want officials. Examine your own comments. I have yet to see one thing that would be a legitimate thing the refs could do to be better. You talk about evaluations, if it is by another ref it would be tainted or skewed to an officials point of view. We have a hard enough time getting refs for all of the games, so having an evaluator would make it even harder. I agreed with you about having coaches pass the rules test. We have made every concession the refs have put out there year after year. I just think it is high time for the refs to do the same. The refs have their own association and should be responsible for recruiting more. They get raises with every new contract, yet some of the same problems continue. I know that the players have made themselves better. The Clubs have worked hard to make themselves bigger and stronger. The facilities have gotten better. All of this and the officiating has stalled. It takes an effort from everyone involved to make the sport continue to grow in the non-traditional areas. I was just implying it is the refs time to start as well.

Well, it sounds like there may be some issues going on where you are beyond the usual coaches' complaints, and if even the most experienced officials aren't getting it done than you have a right to complain.

It does, at some level, always come back to supply and demand: if they officials where you are suck, and you end up giving them everything they want anyway, it's because supply is much lower than demand. You can put your feet down and say, "No, we're not paying you any more until you implement a program to improve officiating" and see what happens, or you can recruit officials from somewhere else and train them. US Lacrosse has a good training program, and you can potentially get people from your area certified as clinicians to teach the officiating. It's a question of whether you're willing to deal with a few years of poorer officiating until the new recruits get up to speed.

I'm not sure where we stand on this point at US Lacrosse, but I'd bet if you're willing to pay to bring people in from out of town you could get training and evaluation done externally, but it would likely be expensive.

I disagree that the officiating organization is responsible for recruiting new officials. It's great if they do, but most of us already invest a lot of time in officiating and managing things locally (and sometimes nationally). If new officials come along, we're happy to train them, but most of us have already asked all of our friends and coworkers if they want to officiate. And in the grand scheme of things, having more officials benefits the teams more than it benefits the officials; I’m not saying that’s how it should be, it’s just realistic.

Think about it: if you suddenly tripled the number of officials in your area, you’d be able to dictate that the better officials worked the Varsity games and you wouldn’t have to keep paying more every year because there would be plenty of guys trying to get games. OTOH, some of the officials who were previously working a lot of games and supplementing their income would be receiving lower-level games and making less; there’s really little incentive for them to do so. It’s also a tougher sell at home: “Honey, I won’t be home tomorrow night because I’ll be working and making $X,” versus, “Honey, I won’t be home tomorrow night because I’ll be trying to recruit officials out of the goodness of my heart for no pay.”

On to a few of your specific comments:

•If you want the officials to recruit, tie their raises to how many new officials they recruit, train, and have work at least 10 games (say).

•Evaluations of officials must be done by someone who knows about officiating. Again, how can a coach evaluate whether an official is in the propoer position if the coach doesn't know what proper position is? Of course, if you get some coaches to go through the certification process, that could help with this issue and also with official shortages. But those coaches may find out that the officials don't have such a sweetheart deal after they work a few games.

•A related issue: There's a late hit after a goal. Does the evaluating coach know which official missed the call, or does he blame both of them equally when really it's the fault of only one official?

[shrekjr]

(copied and pasted from word in honor of laxfan25) :)

As a Texas official, I will say TXD2LAX is in a tough situation based on his location. I'm going to try and be as PC as possible and say the recruiting efforts and training of officials is probably better in some areas of the state than in others. Keeping in mind the officials belong to a state-wide association, all officials in the state are paid the same (with the exception of some local youth leagues and tournaments). I will tell you there is a great deal of training and evaluation in some areas, but as TXD says, it may be the experienced officials in other areas that are not your best officials yet they are the ones who would do the training and evaluation. Some of them may not care about getting better, or training others to replace them. Like every where else, there are some very good officials and some very bad officials in each city. However, there does seem to be a longer list of complaints about the officiating in some parts of the state than in other parts. Some of the complaints are valid, some are not. My personal opinion is that high school lacrosse in Texas is broken on many levels. I believe it needs to be torn down and rebuilt by those with the ability, and given the power, to do so.

[TXD2LAX]

(copied and pasted from word in honor of laxfan25) :)

As a Texas official, I will say TXD2LAX is in a tough situation based on his location. I'm going to try and be as PC as possible and say the recruiting efforts and training of officials is probably better in some areas of the state than in others. Keeping in mind the officials belong to a state-wide association, all officials in the state are paid the same (with the exception of some local youth leagues and tournaments). I will tell you there is a great deal of training and evaluation in some areas, but as TXD says, it may be the experienced officials in other areas that are not your best officials yet they are the ones who would do the training and evaluation. Some of them may not care about getting better, or training others to replace them. Like every where else, there are some very good officials and some very bad officials in each city. However, there does seem to be a longer list of complaints about the officiating in some parts of the state than in other parts. Some of the complaints are valid, some are not. My personal opinion is that high school lacrosse in Texas is broken on many levels. I believe it needs to be torn down and rebuilt by those with the ability, and given the power, to do so.

ABSOLUTELY!!!!!! I have also thought this. Not just rebuilding the officials side of it, but the entire structure. I think there needs to be 3 divisions in the HS Varsity ranks DI, DII, and DII. I think pay could be based on each divison level with DI being the highest and DIII being the lowest. The thing most of the people on this forum do not understand is that in Texas we have some VERY GOOD players with big dreams in this sport. It is the job of EVERYONE involved to give them that opportunity to grow.

[TheKOB]

Well, in SC we get paid $65 for varsity and either $55 or $45. They don't pay milege unless it goes above 50 miles total.

As for evals, I'm not sure if you ref, but my younger brother did a game where the coach was tossed after getting in his face the 3rd time in the game. He felt the need to keep on blaming him for different things and walking on the field. The last time he had an injured player, walked right past him, and got in my brother's face (or as close to it as he could, the coach is rather short) and yelled. He was tossed. On his way out (it took a couple minutes) he yelled about how my brother would never ref another game again and how he'd bash him on his evaluation. Keep in mind as well that because of the lack of refs, he "got" to do that game by himself (I was driving to Myrtle Beach to do another game...milege, ka ching...didn't do me a whole lot of good driving an SUV though).

At any rate, that was the last time he ever gave a coach an official's evaluation form, and after hearing about it, I never passed one out again either. The purpose of the form is to help the officials get better, not to grade them. The problem with evals is that usually (or, speaking from experience, practiclly always) the ref knows the rules and applications better than the coach who is doing the evaluation. Being a coach, I know that the official is not always right, but never do they go out of their way to be unfair, and if they make a bad call my way (and they have, believe me, they have) they'll probably make one the other way as well. At any rate, I'd suggest trying to officiate a few games (while getting yelled at...heck, I'll yell at ya) before trying to suggest new standards for officials.

[laxfan25]

At any rate, I'd suggest trying to officiate a few games (while getting yelled at...heck, I'll yell at ya)
Especially if you should choose to call unnecessary roughness on a buddy pass! :lol:

[LaxRef]

Especially if you should choose to call unnecessary roughness on a buddy pass! :lol:

That reminds me, someone told me recently that if you call a late hit, it seems to "sell" much more easily if you call it UR than IBC. Even though the late hit clearly falls under IBC, he said when you call that people are thinking that the hit was from behind, or below the waist, or something and not a late hit, but when you call UR for a late hit they tend to buy it. This may be a football influence somehow (which is why people give the "stalling" signal when they call "delay of game," even though we don't have a signal for delay in lacrosse).

[TXD2LAX]

Let me give a little more info about my proposed evaluation procedure.

I would have the head coach of the game be the one that does the evaluations. If a head coach is tossed he cannot give one. Thus there would be only one evaluation in which to view. I would have a grade point of 5 being the best and 1 being the worst. I would have the evaluation cover the following areas:
1) Firmness in making calls and standing by them.
2) Fairness in that the calls apply equally to both teams.
3) Consistant in that once a penalty is called it is called the same way the whole game.

I would have the coaches grade on just these three categories. Then I would pay the ref according to the average score between the two evaluations. If a coach is ejected he forfiets his evaluation.

Here is what it might look like as far as pay scale:
4.5 - 5.0 = $69
3.5 - 4.4 = $62
2.5 - 3.4 = $55
1.5 - 2.4 = $50
1.0 - 1.4 = $45

There is nothing in here about how much of the rules a ref knows, but how he manages the game. Area assignors could be responsible for going over the evaluations with the officials before payment is dibursed. If an assignor sees something that does not jive between the two evaluations sucha as one with all 4s and 5s with the other all 1s and 2s, he could talk it over with the coach that posted lower scores. This would be a way to eliminate some of the personal conflicts or grudges a coach might have against a ref. He would be able to decide to accept the evaluation or not.

There has got to be a way for areas with a limited number of officials for coaches to be able to voice their opinions and have them heard.

[TheKOB]

Especially if you should choose to call unnecessary roughness on a buddy pass! :lol:

That's definitely one of my pet peeves, but that's not what this thread is about...

[shrekjr]

Let me give a little more info about my proposed evaluation procedure.
As much as we may agree on some things, this isn't one of them. As a 31 year multi-sport official, I can assure you no official in his right mind would be willing to work under this type of plan. Football officials in Texas are currently "graded" each week by the "head coach". But this is what I can promise happens....

- some coaches never turn them in
- some coaches will always give the highest rating regardless of the truth
- some coaches will always give an "average" rating because anything lower requires explanation
- some coaches have an assistant coach fill out the card and sign the coaches name
- some coaches give a lower rating because they don't understand a rule

Let's turn the tables- what if the coach's pay was determined by an evaluation the officials gave of the coach? How many coaches do you think would approve of that system?

If what you're proposing was a good idea, leagues around the world would have done it years ago. No one else does this, and for good reason. You and I agree there is a problem, but this not the way to fix it. Unfortunately, I don't know what the answer is either.

[TXD2LAX]

Let's turn the tables- what if the coach's pay was determined by an evaluation the officials gave of the coach? How many coaches do you think would approve of that system?

If what you're proposing was a good idea, leagues around the world would have done it years ago. No one else does this, and for good reason. You and I agree there is a problem, but this not the way to fix it. Unfortunately, I don't know what the answer is either.

I got this idea from a rugby association website. In Lacrosse most of the coaches are evaluated and paid by their respective team. If a coach is not doing what the club wants they would have an option to pay them less for their services. If it is such a bad idea for a coach to do the evaluation then let a designated team rep do the evaluation. Like I stated, I am not looking to see how well officials know the rules, but how they apply those rules fairly. Most of you have seen my post when it comes to a rules question. I am not 100% right all of the time, but I come pretty close most of the time. I have taken the time to read and learn the rules. I usually stumble on interpertation like most on this forum.

[TheKOB]

the main problem is that the coaches are biased. If you were to have head officals review the game and then post opinions, then that would be a great idea, but the infastructure isn't there. Basically, with so few people wanting to ref already, I think the emphasis should focus on getting more refs into the fold and teaching the ones we've got rather than splitting hairs (and dollars) by paying refs based on something that a biased coach might say. I think a mentoring program would be great (I'd be game) where the younger guys would do games with older guys, but the problem there (especially in SC) is that there aren't enough older guys. My first few games (and most of the ones thereafter) I did with my younger brother, who has just as much experience as us. Fortunately we know most of the coaches from helping lacrosse grow and have a good rep and they know that we know what we're doing. It's the coaches that are ignorant and hell-bent on staying that way that I have a problem with and I do not want my future as an official dependant on those guys...

[shrekjr]

If it is such a bad idea for a coach to do the evaluation then let a designated team rep do the evaluation. Like I stated, I am not looking to see how well officials know the rules, but how they apply those rules fairly.
Neither coach, nor team rep (parent), can be asked to give an honest unbiased opinion. And again, whether you're talking about rules knowledge or rules application, you're asking an official to be judged by someone usually less knowledgable than himself. That would be the equivalent of asking the official to evaluate the coach not on his knowledge of the game, but on how well his players stick skills are during the game.

Bottom line is that you would be creating a superior/inferior (employer/employee) scenario, and that just isn't fair. The truth is the games need officials and officials need the games. It is an equal partnership and should be treated as such by all parties. There is a negotiating process on a new contract between THSLL and SWLOA as needed, usually every three years. That is the time proposals are made by both groups and there is usually a fair amount of give and take on both sides.

[Beacher]

Up here in Canada the pay rate depends on which division you're officiating. And the divisions you can referee depends on your level. To be a level one official, pass the test. Level two: two years experience and a higher score on the test. Level three: score higher on the (more difficult) test, attend a higher level clinic etc. There are five levels, with the top levels being tapped to officiate provincial, national, then international championships. All of this is predicated upon a standardized clinic (National Officials Certification Program/NOCP) that each official must attend every year. The program is developd by the Canadian Lacrosse Association, and administered by each of the provincial associations. As well, you will likely be evaluated at least once per season by your Referee in Chief or another level 4 or 5 official. All referees must attend a clinic, or they can't ref that season. And there are no league games played (in any league) without two qualified referees, mostly for liability reasons, and also because teams can be penalized or even expelled from the league for violating those rules. It all comes down to safety.
How different are your systems? This seems to work pretty well up here, with less experienced and less able refs getting younger and more managable games (and usually an experienced partner). Just food for thought.

[spenny]

I am not looking to see how well officials know the rules, but how they apply those rules fairly.

how are the coaches going to know if the rules have been applied fairly if they dont know the rules to begin with?

[AUSTINREF]

AAAAAAAmen!

[CardinalPuff]

TXD2LAX might be on to something .....but I say let individual referees negotiate there own rates with indiviual schools on a game by game basis.....you want me to work your game? we'll negotiate a fair rate.....

after all, you get what you pay for....

[shrekjr]

You'll certainly get your money's worth out of CardinalPuff, as long as you actually pay him eventually. :)

[CardinalPuff]

You'll certainly get your money's worth out of CardinalPuff, as long as you actually pay him eventually. :)
and I do charge interest :evil:

[spenny]

and I do charge interest :evil:

i think technically that would be called vig :clap:

[BlueJaysLaxFan]

As could be expected all of these comments are essentially a wall put up by the refs/ This wall they build is what keeps things from getting better. I am not a coach or an official. I spend my time trying to grow and nurture the game for all ages in Houston. I am working on a solution that would be beneficial for everyone, including refs. But when all of the comments from the refs are like the ones I have been given in this forum it shows that the refs themselves are not willing to do things to make it better. The refs assume it is everyone else that needs to change.

I think quite the contrary as well. We're just describing the realities of what is going on with lacrosse officials, and believe me every official I know from the first time they step on the field to 40 years or so later strive to do a good job. Several veteran officials have told me that they wish they could do 2 good games a week, but this is just not reality during the season. And a lot of unpaid and personal time is invested by officials in training and exams.

When I also look at other sports that are saturated with officials, it's not the pay scale that sorts out the quality of officials, but rather the assigners who have the luxury of being picky and receive a lot of the feedback from the schools and the associations. But even in a situation of not enough officials, assigners will make sure to work with the schools to have veteran officials at important and critical games, while giving the newer officials a chance to work some good games too as they gain experience.

[TXD2LAX]

TXD2LAX might be on to something .....but I say let individual referees negotiate there own rates with indiviual schools on a game by game basis.....you want me to work your game? we'll negotiate a fair rate.....

after all, you get what you pay for....

So how much would mileage come to if you came to Houston? :chuckle:

[shrekjr]

Cardinal, what was that Continental airfare roundtrip, about $200? Cheaper than mileage!!!

[TXD2LAX]

Cardinal, what was that Continental airfare roundtrip, about $200? Cheaper than mileage!!!

Hmmmm!!! If fund raising goes well this fall......

[CardinalPuff]

have whistle, will travel....

[Stubs]

TXD,
Every LOA should have a "process improvement" plan for their members. A component of this may include coach evaluations. As you have seen in the postings, very few coach evaluations are turned in, and "He sucks" is not very useful. We have tried to institute a coach eval process, without much support from the coaches.

Better is a peer evaluation - observations and grading by trained referee evaluators. This evaluation, in conjunction with game video, are good tools for improving overall "production" of the officials.

One easy process you can implement is that a copy of each game video is turned over to the officials. Most officials want to improve what they do, and just like for you and your players, video is a great tool for improving your game. The logistics of sending videos is tough, but worth the hassle.

[TXD2LAX]

TXD,
Every LOA should have a "process improvement" plan for their members. A component of this may include coach evaluations. As you have seen in the postings, very few coach evaluations are turned in, and "He sucks" is not very useful. We have tried to institute a coach eval process, without much support from the coaches.

Better is a peer evaluation - observations and grading by trained referee evaluators. This evaluation, in conjunction with game video, are good tools for improving overall "production" of the officials.

One easy process you can implement is that a copy of each game video is turned over to the officials. Most officials want to improve what they do, and just like for you and your players, video is a great tool for improving your game. The logistics of sending videos is tough, but worth the hassle.

What you are suggesting would work in a normal atmosphere. The problems I have refered to are not rules knowledge problems. The problems we have go much deeper. We have refs that think everyone came out to see them, instead of the players. We have refs that let calls go uncalled resulting in serious injuries. We also have refs that try to influence the outcome of games by the calls and the way they make those calls late in a game. What makes matters worse is that the refs that are the most troublesome ARE the more experienced veteren officials. These are the ones that are training the new ones. The complaints on these refs do not come from just one or two coaches but many. The complaints do not come from just the losing coaches, but the winners as well. Texas has two divisions for Lacrosse. This year the D1 state champ was from Houston, and the D2 championship game was between 2 Houston teams. Our players in Houston have blossomed into good Lacrosse players. We just don't need the headaches caused by a few of the refs.