push in the back at the W&L VMI Game

[JMlacrosse23]

ok with 19.1 sec. left in the game one of the W&L poles clears the ball back to the W&L goalie who proceeds to run to the corner of the field and stand facing the outside of the field ( like this |o if the o is the goalie and the lines are the field lines). then with like 15 sec. left a VMI attackman pushes the W&L goalie in the back and knocks him out of bounds. the ref ruled that the ball went to VMI. as it was out of bounds. should that have been ruled a push in the back? or am I just wrong?

[CoachRob]

It SOUNDS like a push with possession if it is exactly as described. However, if the official felt the GK was facing the player, then turned to avoid a check and as a result exposed his back to the player and THEN got hit in the back, then it's not going to be called a push. Similar to if you turn your back just as you're about to be hit. No call. But I didn't see it so I cannot say for sure.

[JMlacrosse23]

his back was turned long before the VMI attackman was anywhere close to him. he was standing facing the stands for a good 2-3 seconds before the push even occured.

[red9535]

Sounds like he did that to waste the last 20 secs of the game, but in any case, defintely a push from behind. Bad call.

[Snake~eyes]

Unless he plows the guy over I've got OOB.

[JMlacrosse23]

Sounds like he did that to waste the last 20 secs of the game, but in any case, defintely a push from behind. Bad call.
that was exactly what he was doing, since you are allowed 20 sec for clearing and with 19.1 sec left, it was a very smart move on W&L's behalf. everyone set up for that play too like they had practiced it before.

EDIT: Unless he plows the guy over I've got OOB.
why is that?

[LaxRef]

Unless he plows the guy over I've got OOB.

So, you don't call a push in the back with possession that forces the guy OOB a time-serving techincal? :thinking:

Follow-up question: What's the call if GK B1 goes to the corner, as described above, with possession and then is walled in by 6 teammates to make it harder for team A to get to B1?

[Shorelax]

So, you don't call a push in the back with possession that forces the guy OOB a time-serving techincal? :thinking:

Follow-up question: What's the call if GK B1 goes to the corner, as described above, with possession and then is walled in by 6 teammates to make it harder for team A to get to B1?

Sounds like the old W&L armadillo. I'm not sure what I would call.

As Monday morning QB - The first scenario sounds like a push technical foul to me.

[Snake~eyes]

So, you don't call a push in the back with possession that forces the guy OOB a time-serving techincal? :thinking:
Nope.

Follow-up question: What's the call if GK B1 goes to the corner, as described above, with possession and then is walled in by 6 teammates to make it harder for team A to get to B1?
With-holding.

[ColtsLax]

Nope.


With-holding.
why not a push?

and if they are just setting picks in front of him, and not moving, the i guess id let it go, but they have to remain stationary

[LaxRef]

So, you don't call a push in the back with possession that forces the guy OOB a time-serving techincal?

Nope.

How do you justify this non-call? It's clearly an illegal push (from behind) and TPOAD dictates that you have to make the push call if the team breaking the rule gains an advantage from it. Here, the illegal push would give the pushing team the ball, so not calling it allows them to benefit by fouling!

Why can't an attackman just legally check the ball out of his stick without pushig him illegally? It's not like the goalie has found some incredible loophole in the rules.

Follow-up question: What's the call if GK B1 goes to the corner, as described above, with possession and then is walled in by 6 teammates to make it harder for team A to get to B1?

With-holding.

Correct. It is illegal to withhold the ball from play in any manner. While I don't think the original situation qualifies, the follow-up would. (It would not surprise me, though, if someone ruled the first situation as withholding as well.)

[avo]

This has always been a tough call for me but one I have been making with more regularity - a push you would probably not call anywhere else on field becomes a technical foul because player was forced out of bounds. I admit I will occasionally sell a loose ball push if ball is dropped at same time.

[LaxRef]

This has always been a tough call for me but one I have been making with more regularity - a push you would probably not call anywhere else on field becomes a technical foul because player was forced out of bounds.

As I said, this is classic TPOAD. The same thing applies if the push forces someoe offsides or into the crease, or if it screws up a shot attempt, even if it's not very much of a push.

[WHEELAX2]

i'm thoroughly confused..

first off let's define a push with posession.. then fit it into our scenario..

is it a push with posession?

absolutely.. the only reason why it probably wasn't called is because of the game situation.. time running down and a team needing the ball. which is wrong.. (or if the goalie turned into the push)

but a push is a push is a push..

also, if you want to get that technical with Withholding, why don't you just call a guy setting a pick or a guy cradling the ball withholding??

isn't the point of cradling to keep the ball away from the defender?

[LaxRef]

i'm thoroughly confused..

first off let's define a push with posession.. then fit it into our scenario..

is it a push with posession?

absolutely.. the only reason why it probably wasn't called is because of the game situation.. time running down and a team needing the ball. which is wrong.. (or if the goalie turned into the push)

but a push is a push is a push..

Well, a push isn't always a push. If I push you from behind as you're running upfield, and you don't fall and nothing else bad happens, there's no advantage there and no call. Heck, maybe I even helped you run upfield faster! I don't think anyone wants to see us make that call; games would take 50% longer at least if we called everything that is technically a violation.

But here, I can see no reason for not calling the push in the back. If you don't, you reward the riding team for fouling.

also, if you want to get that technical with Withholding, why don't you just call a guy setting a pick or a guy cradling the ball withholding??

isn't the point of cradling to keep the ball away from the defender?

Yes, but that's not withholding it from play. There's obviously a difference.

Setting picks is expressly legal. Cradling is legal. Clamping the ball and holding it there so no one else can pick it up is an attempt to keep the ball out of play, not to keep the defender from taking it away from you.

Let me ask you this: How would you feel if you were trailing by 1 with 1:00 to go and you took a shot. The goalie clamps the rebound, rakes it into the crease--but not into possession--and then all 6 teammates come into the crease and crowd around the ball so you can't get to it. The ball is just in front of the goalie's feet, and his crosse is in front of it. There's no way you can get to it, and there's no count on because there's no possession. They run out the last 1:00 like this. Would you prefer that, or would you rather have me make the withholding call? :thinking: :chuckle:

It's important to have the option of calling withholding to keep people from doing unsporting things like this. Again, in this case, I think the goalie is fine, but if they'd packed 6 players around him in the corner, I'd call the withholding, because now it's an obvious ploy to keep the ball out of play.

[WHEELAX2]

it happens in the women's game.. since only the goalie can have her stick in the crease.. and since they have no clearing rules, the ball can just sit there..


ok.. in your scenario the team with the ball in their crease is simply using the rules, or lack of rules to their advantage..

likewise, if they just give it to their best attackman and he runs all around with it, and no one can get it from him, isn't that logically the same thing?

they have the ball, and you can't get it back.


either way, what if it happend at the end of the half? and the team with the ball just wanted to run out the clock until half?

would it be different then?

[Woodenstick]

I did not see the game, but another possibility (besides "turning") is the ref thought there was even pressure on the back (normally with the defender's forearm or glove). Normally the defender can push the ballcarrier back a little with the even pressure as long as there is no blow. It could be that the ref thought even pressure was applied, i.e., the goalie and defender were leaning on each other and the goalie was slowly driven back. Technically I don't think that is even pressure, but many refs might not call it if that is how it happened.

[WHEELAX2]

I did not see the game, but another possibility (besides "turning") is the ref thought there was even pressure on the back (normally with the defender's forearm or glove). Normally the defender can push the ballcarrier back a little with the even pressure as long as there is no blow. It could be that the ref thought even pressure was applied, i.e., the goalie and defender were leaning on each other and the goalie was slowly driven back. Technically I don't think that is even pressure, but many refs might not call it if that is how it happened.


or it could have been a flop

[LaxRef]

ok.. in your scenario the team with the ball in their crease is simply using the rules, or lack of rules to their advantage..

likewise, if they just give it to their best attackman and he runs all around with it, and no one can get it from him, isn't that logically the same thing?

they have the ball, and you can't get it back.

One is an obvious attempt to subvert the rules to one's advantage, and the other is a good, legal play. In addition, if the attackman has possession, there are counts forcing him to clear the ball, get it into the box, and then keep it in the box (either by stall or if leading in the last 2:00) that give the defense a better chance to get the ball back.

So, if team A had a 1-goal lead in the fourth period, do you think it's fair for them to pack in around a loose-ball in the crease to try to run out the entire fourth quarter?

[laxfan25]

This sequence is something that I try to train my new refs on - to see the cause of an action rather than just looking down at players' feet. If a push in the back causes me to stumble or step forward out of bounds, into the crease or over the midfield - you've gotta call the push. If the guy has possession, its 30 secs., if loose, award to the pushed team. To do anything else severely penalizes the team that was truly pushed.
All that said, this is a frequently "missed" call - the ref sees the guy step out and simply gives it to the other team.