Offsides time 2?

[LaxRef]

I saw this scenario on another board:

B1 is sent out of the game on a 1:00 penalty. Team B ends up with possession in it's offensive end, then turns the ball over, and attackman B2 ends up going offsides (with only 2 men back). He realizes he is offsides and continues to play defense.

Then B1's penalty ends, and he comes onto his defensive end of the field. Is this a second offside penalty, or is this a legal play? :thinking:

[eme]

Legal play. Still only two back due to B2's offsides.

[CoachRob]

They now have two attackmen, seven in the defensive end, and a GK. So only one man B2 is offside, and he is the only one assessed an offside penalty. If you thought in this case there were two offsides, then anytime a middie crosses the midfield stripe when one of his teammates is offside, then he TOO would be offside, and I know you woudn't call that. Same scenario, except instead of a middie crossing, it is a player entering from the penalty box.

[laxfan25]

Except since there are already 6 men in the defensive half with B2 offsides, when B1 comes on the D half and puts them at 7, isn't he also offsides? And since he's a second player, they would have two serving?

[LaxRef]

It's a bit of a conundrum, but I think the key point is that before B1 is released, team B has one more player than they are allowed to have on that end of the field, and after B1 is released they still have one more player than they are allowed to have on that end of the field (namely B2).

It feels like B1 should be offsides because he's the 7th man, but if he is now offsides then B2 is no longer offsides.

Here's another way to look at it: when B2 goes offsides, even if he steps back onside, he can then go over midfield and play defense since the flag is already down. In effect, team B gets to play with an extra defender until the play is killed because there's a penalty upcoming for the offside infraction. When the penalty expires, if you force B1 to go into the offensive end, team B no longer gets to play defense with an extra man. Now, granted, we don't like the fouling team to gain an advantage by fouling, but in this case they've made a legitimate trade: playing with an extra defender in exchange for giving up a 30-second penalty if no goal is scored.

[laxfan25]

It still doesn't seem right. If B2 returned to his half before B1 came on I could see that there would be no additional foul. Let's look at it another way - what if B1 had come on the offensive half first and then joined the fray in the defensive half - that would be another player offsides - no? He just short-circuited his route back on the field by immediately going on the defensive half and putting them at 7 in the D half. B2's actions put them at two in the O half.
I still think we have two players committing violations, and both should take 30, but it is an interesting question.

[LaxRef]

It still doesn't seem right. If B2 returned to his half before B1 came on I could see that there would be no additional foul. Let's look at it another way - what if B1 had come on the offensive half first and then joined the fray in the defensive half - that would be another player offsides - no? He just short-circuited his route back on the field by immediately going on the defensive half and putting them at 7 in the D half. B2's actions put them at two in the O half.

To me, the key is that they are at all times only one player over the allowable number in the defensive end. Even if B2 went to the offensive end and then the defensive end, while that feels like offsides, I don't think a second violation has been committed.

Aha! I have the clinching argument! What if this happened:

Same situation, but at the moment B1's penalty expires, B2 steps back to the defensive end. B1 steps on the field on the defensive end, giving them 7 players (3 D, 3 M, 1 G). Then B2 comes offside again, giving them 8 players on the defensive end. You cannot penalize B1, and you cannot penalize B2 a second time for going offsides a second time on the same live ball. The end result—team B plays defense with 8 players and gets only one offsides penalty—is not substantively different from the original play.

[laxfan25]

I agree with what you said here, that if B2 goes back onside and then off again it's not a new violation, since it's the same player. (and when I said 7 I meant 8, forgetting that darn GK). Let's take it a step further - B2 returns to the attack half, B1 releases his penalty and goes to the D half, no problem. But if B1 comes on the attack half and both he and B2 decide to hold hands and go offsides, you have a new violation on B1 along with the original on B2.
(And as I wrote this I realize I'm totally wrong - since B would only be one short on the A half, not two.)
I'm a big boy and admit my error, just penalize B2.
(This updating multiple forums can be a pain!)