What would you do? [Archive] - The Lacrosse Forums

CoachRob

05-05-2006, 05:42 AM

5/6th grade game, one man mechanic. I call Flag Down for a slash of a red player, and the offended player continues to score. I signal to the sideline personal foul blue, slash , one minute.

One of the players walks right up to me and says with a very even tone (not harsh) "The goal wipes out the penalty". He didn't address me as "Sir" or "Ref", and seemed to be indicating I didn't know the rules. I explained for a technical foul, he was correct, but not a personal foul.

Would you have:
1. Ignored it.
2. Explained it as I did.
3. Issued a conduct foul.
4. Issued a USC.
5. Other???

I didn't feel he had an attitude, but a 5/6 grader shouldn't be telling me my job, should he? Whatcha think?

Formerlaxdemon

05-05-2006, 05:44 AM

5. Explained it as you did, but also warned the player that it is not his place or privilege to address you in that manner (was he the captain?).

CoachRob

05-05-2006, 06:26 AM

5. Explained it as you did, but also warned the player that it is not his place or privilege to address you in that manner (was he the captain?).

No, he wasn't a captain. Although at that age group, being a captain means little to nothing, as the coach just picks kids to send out for the coin toss.

eme

05-05-2006, 07:21 AM

Another chance for the Great Educator of a few posts ago to weave his magic....

laxfan25

05-05-2006, 08:02 AM

Another chance for the Great Educator of a few posts ago to weave his magic....
Agree! Since he wasan't being nasty, just clarify the difference for him as you escort him or his teammate to the sin bin.
There are people at all levels who don't understand the rules. I had a HS coach the other night who was insisting that the attack had to have possession in the attack box to kill the 10 second count. Told him No, but he was insisting. The game was pretty low-key, so I said, "would you like to wager $100 on that?" "No, I haven't read all of the rulebook".

Snake~eyes

05-05-2006, 11:13 AM

I would have responded with attitude, explaining the rule and then stating that I don't want his help anymore.

spenny

05-05-2006, 11:22 AM

at the youth game before mine last weekend, a ref we all know and love declared a stick illegal (1 min variety) a parent on the far sideline started shouting "that's 3 minutes and you have to take all his goals off the board!"

i wanted to brain him, but just walked away.

fortunately (so far) my lax parents have fallen into 2 categories. either they know nothing about the game, or they played in college, so i have been spared the semi-knowledgeable semi-wits

blindbill

05-05-2006, 01:20 PM

A kid in that age group knowing that much about the rules (although a little confused)? Congratulate him on how much work he must have done to understand the rules that he does, re-educate him, and SIGN HIM UP!

LaxRef

05-05-2006, 01:50 PM

at the youth game before mine last weekend, a ref we all know and love declared a stick illegal (1 min variety) a parent on the far sideline started shouting "that's 3 minutes and you have to take all his goals off the board!"

"Plus you have to pin a scarlet C to their chest (for cheater), mock them openly for seven minutes, and then shove bamboo shoots up their fingernails and light them on fire."

Longpole5435

05-05-2006, 02:04 PM

I would have responded with attitude, explaining the rule and then stating that I don't want his help anymore.
That sir, is bad officiating and is why the word referee has bad connotations.
A good official answers a statement like this one, especially if it is presented in an even tone. For example, in a game this week a ref called my teamate for a slash. It was obivously a slash, but he called out the wrong number. Politely, I asked him if he was calling the guy defending the ball for the slash. He said yea and I said that it wasn't #44, it was #20 and he thanked me and corrected his mistake. Players may sometimes be wrong, but the referees would develop a much better relationship with them if refs treated them with more respect. Not all refs are guilty of this, mind you, but Snake~Eyes, your way of going about this is in complete disrespect to the player by giving him an attitude. There is simply no reason to do that. :thumbsdow

Snake~eyes

05-05-2006, 02:38 PM

That sir, is bad officiating and is why the word referee has bad connotations.
A good official answers a statement like this one, especially if it is presented in an even tone. For example, in a game this week a ref called my teamate for a slash. It was obivously a slash, but he called out the wrong number. Politely, I asked him if he was calling the guy defending the ball for the slash. He said yea and I said that it wasn't #44, it was #20 and he thanked me and corrected his mistake. Players may sometimes be wrong, but the referees would develop a much better relationship with them if refs treated them with more respect. Not all refs are guilty of this, mind you, but Snake~Eyes, your way of going about this is in complete disrespect to the player by giving him an attitude. There is simply no reason to do that. :thumbsdow
Let's see, answering a statement? That's a new one.

You are comparing apples and oranges. In your scenario you said "Politely, I asked him..." In the above situation someone tells me the rule and is just attemping to argue a rule with me. These types of players are the ones that continually do this throughout the game and if you do not squash it then you will have to deal with it.

I have developed a good relationship with players that respect me and speak to me nicely.I have NO issue answering infinite questions from players, I would never turn away a player, regardless of whether or not he is a captain. But when a player attempts to tell me the rule or the call then I'm going to respond to him, including the correct rule and let it be known that that type of action will not be tolerated. He is just lucky he's not going to be serving a conduct foul.

Longpole5435

05-05-2006, 03:04 PM

Let's see, answering a statement? That's a new one.

You are comparing apples and oranges. In your scenario you said "Politely, I asked him..." In the above situation someone tells me the rule and is just attemping to argue a rule with me. These types of players are the ones that continually do this throughout the game and if you do not squash it then you will have to deal with it.

I have developed a good relationship with players that respect me and speak to me nicely.I have NO issue answering infinite questions from players, I would never turn away a player, regardless of whether or not he is a captain. But when a player attempts to tell me the rule or the call then I'm going to respond to him, including the correct rule and let it be known that that type of action will not be tolerated. He is just lucky he's not going to be serving a conduct foul.

In case you have never noticed, a statement can SHOCKINGLY require a response. For example:

Johnny:The answer to the problem is 6.
Teacher:No, I'm afraid it isn't, you see you miscalculated in step 3.

As opposed to your way:

Johnny: The answer to the problem is 6.
Teacher: No, it isn't and if I hear anymore wrong answers out of you, it'll be a detention.

Plus consider the tone of the voice, as reported by CoachRob

says with a very even tone (not harsh)

Speech is partly what you say, partly how you say it. Clearly, it appears this young man went about it in a reasonable manner. He's young, cut him some slack for using a statement not a question, and explain. He'd probably be very impressed that you took care to explain it to him, not just ignore him or scold him or tell him no.

Snake~eyes

05-05-2006, 04:07 PM

Speech is partly what you say, partly how you say it. Clearly, it appears this young man went about it in a reasonable manner. He's young, cut him some slack for using a statement not a question, and explain. He'd probably be very impressed that you took care to explain it to him, not just ignore him or scold him or tell him no.
It's very easy to tell what a players intentions are by the tone of his voice, if a player makes an innocent statement then I would respond by informing him of the rules. Often times this is followed up with an arguement (not always though). But many players say it very rudely and they think they know the rules (you know since they spent so much time in meetings and reading the rulebook), when they make these statements they are just attempting to start an arguement with you, these are the kind of players who I have to respond to accordingly.

LaxRef

05-05-2006, 04:14 PM

In case you have never noticed, a statement can SHOCKINGLY require a response.

As I read somewhere (maybe eme?): Questions may be answered or not answered. Statements do not require a response.

Just because someone wants to argue with me doesn't mean I have to take the bait.

In any case, I agree with where Snake~eyes is going. If the kid asks me, "Doesn't the goal wipe out the penalty," I'll respond, "Only if it's a technical, not if it's a personal foul. A slash is a personal foul." In fact, I explained this yesterday (and on almost every goal scored with a flag down for a personal).

But the subtext of this kid's statement is, "You don't know the rules and I do, even though you've had to pass rules tests and I couldn't even tell you what the rule book looks like." And Snake~eyes is right: such kids tend to continue to be mouthy throughout the game. I'm disinclined to go out of my way to be extra-polite to such a kid, who's being inherently rude.

gfink

05-05-2006, 04:59 PM

I would have done what i always do. Smile and say thank you. And as i was walking away i would have a chuckle to myself. I am constantly amazed at these young fella's and what they come up with.

Longpole5435

05-05-2006, 08:58 PM

As I read somewhere (maybe eme?): Questions may be answered or not answered. Statements do not require a response.

Just because someone wants to argue with me doesn't mean I have to take the bait.

In any case, I agree with where Snake~eyes is going. If the kid asks me, "Doesn't the goal wipe out the penalty," I'll respond, "Only if it's a technical, not if it's a personal foul. A slash is a personal foul." In fact, I explained this yesterday (and on almost every goal scored with a flag down for a personal).

But the subtext of this kid's statement is, "You don't know the rules and I do, even though you've had to pass rules tests and I couldn't even tell you what the rule book looks like." And Snake~eyes is right: such kids tend to continue to be mouthy throughout the game. I'm disinclined to go out of my way to be extra-polite to such a kid, who's being inherently rude.

But you and Snakeyes both ignore the fact that the kid said it in an even, level tone....thats why I quoted it in my prior response

LaxRef

05-05-2006, 10:08 PM

But you and Snakeyes both ignore the fact that the kid said it in an even, level tone....thats why I quoted it in my prior response

I didn't ignore, I just don't think it's that important. Sure, it's worse if he yells at you, but I can call you some pretty unkind things in a nice, even tone. In fact, when people are being condescending jerks, they often have a nice, even tone. It doesn't mean that they aren't being jerks.

GILax18

05-05-2006, 10:12 PM

I would have done what i always do. Smile and say thank you. And as i was walking away i would have a chuckle to myself. I am constantly amazed at these young fella's and what they come up with.

Bill Cosby's "Kids say the darnedest things" :P

blindbill

05-05-2006, 10:45 PM

I believe that is Art Linkleter's (sp) (I'm really dating myself) "Kids say the darndest things".

laxfan25

05-06-2006, 07:48 AM

Had a player yesterday drive to the goal and take a shot, which was blocked. didn't see any violations against him, but he comes by saying "Hey ref, what about the slash to the head? Why don't you call something!!" So I threw my flag and called "White, #10 - 30 seconds - Conduct!" I don't think that is what he had in mind.
Several other humorous events from the past week;
Team A throws the ball down to the attack box, but it is uncaught. Coach B is yelling - "10 seconds!" I'm going by as trail and say "What?" Coach B - "they've gotta have possession in the box to kill the 10 count!" I said no. At halftime he called another coach on his cell phone and said that he agreed with Coach B - 2 against 1. I said my 1 out-trumps their 2. Yesterday his asst coach told me he looked it up and I was right - big surprise.
End of the first half - Team A in the attack box and A1 runs out of the box. B1 at the midfield line is yelling "out of the box!" The half ends and he says "they've gotta keep it in the box in the last two minutes". Me - "Is this the 4th quarter?" He - "No, they've gotta keep it in at the end of both halves!" Oh.
Mistakes by some of our new refs:
1) Releasing only one player from the penalty box after a goal (2 in for releaseable penalties)
2) Calling a player for playing the ball from the ground.
3) Telling an attackman at X behind the goal - "you've gotta move the ball" when he's back there looking for a cutter to pass to (7th/8th grade).

*Sigh* Time for an e-mail rules update...

cool beans

05-06-2006, 08:34 AM

5. other, i would have slaped him silly.
actulllay i would have explained it and told him if you questioned calls latter, other ref might not be as nice as me

LaxRef

05-06-2006, 08:43 AM

Team A throws the ball down to the attack box, but it is uncaught. Coach B is yelling - "10 seconds!" I'm going by as trail and say "What?" Coach B - "they've gotta have possession in the box to kill the 10 count!" I said no

"Coach, you can challenge a rules interpretation under Rule 7-13, but you'll lose a timeout if you're wrong."

End of the first half - Team A in the attack box and A1 runs out of the box. B1 at the midfield line is yelling "out of the box!" The half ends and he says "they've gotta keep it in the box in the last two minutes". Me - "Is this the 4th quarter?" He - "No, they've gotta keep it in at the end of both halves!" Oh.

Last night the leading team was calling for a stall against the trailing team for bringing the ball out of the box in the last two minutes!

Mistakes by some of our new refs:
1) Releasing only one player from the penalty box after a goal (2 in for releaseable penalties)

Recently A1 got two slashes and B1 scores a goal. Coach insists only one penalty gets released by the goal.

<sigh>

laxcomm

05-06-2006, 01:35 PM

Some years back when I was officiating many coaches in my area knew very little about the game of lacrosse. Therefore, instead of making corrections to their players, they officiated my game for me. A foul would occur and before I could take out my flag or blow my whistle the coach was telling me what happened. My reply was usually, "Coach you have to give me time to make the call. If I don't make it or do make it and you disagree that's one thing, but if you continue trying to influence my decsions I will call a foul on you.".

Best yet is the coach who has a running commentary about the rules during the game and when you award a two or three minute personal for a really excessive slash or other personal foul he will ask "Is that releasable?". My standard answer was "Coach how come you don't know that rule, you seem to know all of the other rules that you have been bothering me about?".

Players should play, coaches should coach, officials should do the officiating, and parents should spectate. Nothing is worse than a parent who knows part of a rule but not all of it, or who played 20 years ago and the rules have changed.

Beacher

05-06-2006, 08:59 PM

Several other humorous events from the past week;
Team A throws the ball down to the attack box, but it is uncaught. Coach B is yelling - "10 seconds!" I'm going by as trail and say "What?" Coach B - "they've gotta have possession in the box to kill the 10 count!" I said no. At halftime he called another coach on his cell phone and said that he agreed with Coach B - 2 against 1. I said my 1 out-trumps their 2. Yesterday his asst coach told me he looked it up and I was right - big surprise.
Haha... simultanuous technicals for IP: (60.1.ii) A coach, trainer, or other person officially connected with the team shall not artificial aids to communicate etc. (ILF rules). Not that it matters since it's halftime...

LaxRef

05-06-2006, 09:12 PM

Haha... simultanuous technicals for IP: (60.1.ii) A coach, trainer, or other person officially connected with the team shall not artificial aids to communicate etc. (ILF rules). Not that it matters since it's halftime...

This is not the rule under NFHS and NCAA rules.

Phones and headsets can be used by coaches and other non-players, but not by players under NFHS rules. NCAA makes no mention of this issue at all.

Beacher

05-06-2006, 09:51 PM

This is not the rule under NFHS and NCAA rules.

Phones and headsets can be used by coaches and other non-players, but not by players under NFHS rules. NCAA makes no mention of this issue at all.

Just trying to make light of the situation. It would apply up here in Canada.

Hmm... can you picture a team outfitted with headsets?

LaxRef

05-06-2006, 09:57 PM

Just trying to make light of the situation. It would apply up here in Canada.

Hmm... can you picture a team outfitted with headsets?

I'm sure there are private schools with boatloads of cash that would wire the helmets so the coach could speak to the players directly during the game if they thought it would help. That's why they have some of these rules.

CardinalPuff

05-06-2006, 11:06 PM

I didn't feel he had an attitude, but a 5/6 grader shouldn't be telling me my job, should he? Whatcha think?
i think i might ask him why he isn't wearing his mouthpiece on the playing field....

Shorelax

05-10-2006, 12:44 PM

spenny

05-10-2006, 12:45 PM

I'll ask the parents - "what color is the rulebook this year?" Sometimes that will quite them down.

that's a keeper!

LaxRef

05-10-2006, 01:04 PM

that's a keeper!

Another is "How many rules are there?"

maclax

05-10-2006, 01:40 PM

I'm a sixth grader playing lacrosse as well. I really wouldn't take any offense to it though, hes probably just frustrated.

Mac

laxstar841

05-10-2006, 09:51 PM

Coming from the players side versus the referees side. I think what you should of told him was in this case it does't and explain to him why it doesn't. Hes only in 5th or 6th grade and hes trying to learn the game of lacrosse. He looks up to you and was asking you a question. i admit i would of been better had he said Sir doesn't the goal cancel out the penalty.