LSM vs. Close D

[3rdPersonPlural]

Help the handicapped here.........

I ended my serious playing days before the notion of a 4th pole had even come up.

These days, I hear LSM's discussed as a seperate entity altogether to defensemen.

However, as far as I can tell, they're a 4th defenseman on the field. No skill sets needed that don't intersect 100% with those needed to be a good starting defenseman. The only difference is that they don't need to learn how to address a transition offense.

I know that I'm missing something. Can someone explain what that is?

??

[The Doors]

LSMs, at least out here, generally are much quicker than poles and have a better set of stick skills.....They are usually the ones who take the ball over the mid line on a clear and get it to the attackman before they come runnin off the field.......I'd probably say that they play a different type of D than typical defenseman, more of a finesse game, and that they have a better set of wheels and stick skills

[Bobsch]

LSMs have been around a LONG time. I remember when we could have five longpoles on the field at once (and it could be more in earlier days). The Doors is right. They also tend to be great at getting ground balls on faceoffs, cutting off fast breaks, and playing all over the field. Some close defensemen don't have the mobility, skills, or agility to feel comfortable near the restraining line, but LSMs love playing out there (or anywhere). Many LSMs are also great close defensemen, but there are some close defensemen who don't play well as LSMs. Very tiring position, by the way, but also very fun.

[PMRaiderLax6]

LSMs have been around a LONG time. I remember when we could have five longpoles on the field at once (and it could be more in earlier days). The Doors is right. They also tend to be great at getting ground balls on faceoffs, cutting off fast breaks, and playing all over the field. Some close defensemen don't have the mobility, skills, or agility to feel comfortable near the restraining line, but LSMs love playing out there (or anywhere). Many LSMs are also great close defensemen, but there are some close defensemen who don't play well as LSMs. Very tiring position, by the way, but also very fun.
Emphasis on the position being very tiring. We're always sprinting, whether it be sprinting off of the field to get a middie on, of sprinting into the play. Always sprinting.

[Bobsch]

Yeah, I was LSM in a tournament last year and it was really hot. Plus I'm not the youngest in the world and I smoke.....so I was pretty dead afterwards. Lots of fun, though, and we won.

[Last Don]

I was a long-stick middie in high school and college. As was previously mentioned, we tend to be much faster, and have much better stick skills than close defenseman. Also, we're generally smaller than close defenseman.

I really want to emphasize the groundball skill though. That's where the vast majority of our playing time comes in. Even if the team I'm playing for has a stud face-off guy, if he's not flipping it to himself, he relies on me to get our team possession.

LSM's also tend to play more "on the run" defense. We very seldom has to play a pitched defense where our guy tries to ISO on us. In fact, we very seldom face guys who will dodge on us, as middies see a long-pole in a settled situation and tend to panic. Most of our stick checks are thrown in hip-to-hip situations on fast breaks, etc.

Definitley a different breed of long pole.

[Longpole5435]

To be a LSM You must be fast, have endurance, have good stick skills, be a GB animal, be a vocal leader in unsettled situations, be able to play transition very well. This is not just a spot for your fourth best pole.

Also, we do more running than anyone else on the field, bar none.

[pantherLax]

Do people look at LSM as a separate position? Or is it a position for a middie who can play good D

[3rdPersonPlural]

I'm glad Panther stepped in. Were I setting up a team ALL of my d men would be fast and ground ball animals. I wouldn't really care how big they were.

Let's put it this way. What attributes do the close d players have that give them a full time gig whereas the LSM is part time?

If you have a fast, skilled, smart defender, why would you put him out at LSM instead of head up on the attack?

I realize that there is wisdom that I have missed here. I'm not challenging, just grinding away until I figger this out.....

[AngryLongStick]

LSMs are the smarter of the long-poles.

[nemesis562]

If you have a fast, skilled, smart defender, why would you put him out at LSM instead of head up on the attack?

very good question , and here is my attempt at an answer. remember that all good offensive players aren't just attackmen. their are plenty of middies that give defenses trouble, and the LSM is a perfect defense for that. the best answer for your team is a guy that can play LSM and defense, but to have an awesome LSM to shut of the teams best middie really helps your team out, becuase it keeps your close D away from the middes, where they will sometimes get confused becuase of playing behind the cage so much.

[Longpole5435]

On our team, LSM isn't a position for your fourth best defender, it is a place for the guy you want to shut down the opponents best middie. Defense is all about getting your best players on their best players. Thereofer, if their best player is a middie, then you want your best pole on them. The three attackmen are not necessarily the best three offensive players on the field.

[3rdPersonPlural]

Yes, I understand that often a middie is the top scorer on a team. In my day we'd put the top defender on the top scorer (attack or middie, it didn't matter) and cover the least dangerous attackman with a middie.

A good defender can shut down anyone playing anywhere, and I never recall being disoriented playing up by the restraining line when necessary. It's easier, in many ways - just point your butt at the cage and your nose at the opponent and keep that orientation no matter how much he dances.

[Last Don]

I'll be 100% honest with how I got the gig as our team's longpole middie. I played a lot of positions, but always wanted to be a defenseman, but I was too small (6'1, 160lbs. when I graduated high school). Finally, I picked up a longpole between my junior and senior years, and just came out to practice with one, though I was a starting attackman. I gave my coach no choice. Seeing as how I was smaller and faster than our regular defenseman, and we had never really run a longpole middie, I was given the job.

Naturally, being a former attackman, and offensive middie, my ball/stick handling were far and away better than my defensive team mates, and being faster made me a more natural fit for transition defense, and sticking with more athletic middies.

What made me a crappy fit for close defense, and why those guys played over me was that we were a VERY physical team, and often played some much larger attackmen. I couldn't adequately come through to clear the crease, or bully the attackmen around the way my coach wanted.

[somrandomguy]

As people have said, long stick middies generally are fast, have good stick skills, and are ground ball MACHINES. The biggest physical difference from what I've seen is that, in general, LSMs aren't as a big as close defenders, because of the whole speed thing.

[Longpole5435]

3PPA, you are mistaken in saying it is easier to defend from up top. Its kinda like defending from X, but even harder. Having played both this season, I relish the days when I play close D

[AngryLongStick]

Basically, LSMs are the Close-D with the most endurance.

[The Doors]

angrylongstick...you couldnt be more wrong....LSM is a completely different position...just cuz ur a great dpole doesnt mean ud be a good LSM or vice versa

[Longpole5435]

AngryLongStick and The Doors are looking at the extremes. In truth, a good defenseman can be a good long stick middie. A good LSM, however, may not make a great close defender.

[TitanLax]

angrylongstick...you couldnt be more wrong....LSM is a completely different position...just cuz ur a great dpole doesnt mean ud be a good LSM or vice versa
not necessarily, the doors, ur right...however, two of my teammates who played LSM and Close started playingm Close and LSM (switched) when they got to high school...and now both r at Close. I play LSM this year, mostly because a) i am the fastest pole we have. b) i am tall but lean and not as 'beefy' as some of our close.
my job is to use my speed to get in on the face-off for a GB...many close rn't that quick. however, down on defense i am not the same physical defender some of my teammates r...i would much rather run with a guy then play in close to the goal...but that's just my perspective.
nevertheles, out 3 LSM's, one of the LSM's played shortie last year, and two played close. out of the 5 close we have, one played shortie last year (thick built guy which is y he's close now), two played LSM last year and 1 played LSM two years ago. only one has always played close.
the verdict: on our team, atleast, often guys switch from year to year, whether b/c they go from middle school to high school, JV to varsity or just fit somewhere else better even if they have been on varsity for awhile.

[Pagan30]

The LSM's that I run are better stick handlers, better on groundballs, and faster. D-poles like their little piece of earth and play great D on that piece but you put them out on the "island" and they get a little lost. Not having any help ( slide-in a good spot etc). LSM are midfielders with a defensive mind and a longpole. They understand how to slow plays down and let the other midfielders get into a decent position to help they understand transition and how to push the ball to up the offensive side and still be able to make a play (even with a long pole). They also understand when and where to throw their checks and be able to recover and still be in great position. They are usually not big enough to bounce around the crease working through picks and are usually unable to stop a "backing" attackmen that does not hang his stick...... You really need to stop thinking of them as Close Defensemen because they are not they are middies. Just middies that do not play horrible defense and have long pole as I have said. They are the most athletic defense minded person on the field. They are rarely full contact hitters.... although having one that is just makes him more dangerous.

[Pagan30]

One last note to go along with my last sentence. They understand body position but go more for stick checks then body checks which totally seperates them from you close D that should be more worried about the body checks because they are usually playing closer to the goal.

[cali feeder]

Yes, I understand that often a middie is the top scorer on a team. In my day we'd put the top defender on the top scorer (attack or middie, it didn't matter) and cover the least dangerous attackman with a middie.

A good defender can shut down anyone playing anywhere, and I never recall being disoriented playing up by the restraining line when necessary. It's easier, in many ways - just point your butt at the cage and your nose at the opponent and keep that orientation no matter how much he dances.

Our LSM on Oak Park is the perfect example of a great LSM.

[3rdPersonPlural]

Our LSM on Oak Park is the perfect example of a great LSM.

Yeah. He'd be your best close defender, too.

[3rdPersonPlural]

The LSM's that I run are better stick handlers, better on groundballs, and faster.

So why play them part time? I'd start that guy, and keep him on the field ALL the time.

D-poles like their little piece of earth and play great D on that piece but you put them out on the "island" and they get a little lost.

Not a good defender. If you put big dumb guys at close D, the other team scores a lot more.

Not having any help ( slide-in a good spot etc). LSM are midfielders with a defensive mind and a longpole. They understand how to slow plays down and let the other midfielders get into a decent position to help they understand transition and how to push the ball to up the offensive side and still be able to make a play (even with a long pole).

Ideally, which of these skills should a close defender lack? Wouldn't you rather have 4 or 5 guys like that, and leave the slow footed guys to play baseball?These are skills that all good defenders should possess.

Look, folks, I'm not being obdurate or argumentative here. I KNOW that there's a difference, but I can't grasp it.

If Pagan were a college coach who got to recruit, he'd have nothing BUT swift and sure poles. Right? So why play your quickest and surest only part time?

They also understand when and where to throw their checks and be able to recover and still be in great position.

And this differs from any good pole how?

They are usually not big enough to bounce around the crease working through picks and are usually unable to stop a "backing" attackmen that does not hang his stick......

Now we're getting somewhere. Thanks, Pagan. But When you put in a 4th pole, why not rotate in your big muscle guy who can cover the bull dodging attackman, and move your quick fella up to the LSM position. That way you've got your legs on the field for the transition game, and your muscle on the field for the static offense?

You really need to stop thinking of them as Close Defensemen because they are not they are middies. Just middies that do not play horrible defense and have long pole as I have said.

A defender plays defense where ever he is. I never got disoriented playing up near midfield. As long as you know where the goal is, have a half step of juice more than your opponent, and have a big stick, a defender will play on the moon and be unfazed.

They are the most athletic defense minded person on the field. They are rarely full contact hitters.... although having one that is just makes him more dangerous.

Lacrosse neither encourages nor enables full contact hitting. It's a contact sport, sure, but not a hitting sport. What hitting goes on is usually a middie issue. I rarely see a college defender, let alone one on an elite team, get to demonstrate his collision skills, but I often see one going north while his attacker goes south, which leads to a goal, which leads me to believe that a few more guys with the feet to dance with the dodgers would be an advantage.

[cali feeder]

Yeah. He'd be your best close defender, too.

Tell me about it. The kid is gettin recruited to Yale.

Back on topic, I would tend to agree with 3rdPersonPlural. Why not have ALL of your defense, whether it be close-d or LSM, have great speed, footwork, athleticism, and stick skills? Isn't that the ideal defender? Size, however, is another issue. It's rare to come across a 6'3 210lb LSM...if you have one, great. But chances are if you have a guy that size, he won't be that fast. That big slow guy is the guy you stick on the crease who can muscle in with the attackman though.

So basically, LSM's are the close-d guys, but a bit quicker and generally a bit smaller. In an ideal team, every single person playing with a longpole would be 6'3 210lbs and have Mike Powell stick skills and 4.7 speed, but that just isn't realistic. Hence the difference in positions of the LSM and close-d.

Whew.

[Pagan30]

I think you are just argueing for another defensemen....... which is fine. No (even though I recruit) An LSM does not have all the same attributes as a defensemen....I told you plainly it is not a defensemen it is a midfielder with a pole. Defensemen play to their slides and are package minded an LSM is that but also is your take away personel for the midfielder that is a scorer. In man down your LSM is your fourth pole so yes he can be a close defensemen but a D-pole is not always a LSM because there is a difference between being quick ( d-pole that can stay with an attackmen quick moves) and fast ( an LSM that can stay with a midfielder all the way up and down the field in a transition. In a perfect world a D-pole will not get lost on his island but we are not in a perfect world and at times of multiple transition and upon defenders getting tired they do make mistakes ( that is why you don't iso every play). Now don't get me wrong I will throw my D-pole to LSM at times if they are well rested and I need someone physical on a face off or on continues ground ball situations but I do it sparingly. I wish all my defender were fast but they are not but they are all quick. I hope I explained the difference well enough. As far as contact defenders have to be contact minded and that is why we take their stick away when we teach them at the younger ages to play D. No hitting is not the main goal but it is a viable option especially near the crease ( Clear Crease- call from goalie is specifically for this). As far as having your best D-pole (LSM) on the field all the time he is supposed to be on the field when the ball is on your defensive side. When else would you have him out there? He runs and clears - he comes off. Ball comes back he goes back on. But as I said you do not want him getting tagged in Picks and Crease play. That is not his strength. As far as D1 they can all probable play LSM and D-pole but at D2 unfortunately if they could play both they are going to a D1 school. My players are good and can do a lot but there is gaps in there play and you keep them away from those gaps to win...
Hope that helped!!!

[Pagan30]

Last note..... You want your surest defender - stick wise. To take the ball up the field on transition. So if your best stick handler (LSM) was playing the Wing attackmen (usually your better attackmen) where would he go on a clear? Alley ....right? That does not leave him any room to manuever and use his better skills to get the ball over the midfield and to the offense.....if your in the alley you have to depend on a MIDFIELDER to do that. Why would I do that if I have a long pole that can do it and if they ride hard he is in a position to slow the break and possibly take the ball again.

[spike191]

Here is the best advice i can give you, LSM's are midfeilders who are fast as hell, bigger then normal and can play good defense body position wise. They under stand the postion and can body check but the stick work when it comes to checking isn't as good, but it will get better if you keep them there.

I played on my schools freshman team last year, i was an ok 2nd line middie, only because i had a good shot, was fast (coach thought i was the fastest kid on the team) and could play D. I didn't get much playing time in middie except for the shortstick on mand down defense. The varsity coach told my coach to put a pole in my hands. Right off the bat i could carry the ball up and down the feild, switch hands, face and role dodge with a pole better then all the other poles but my regular defense got worse. Over time i have gained the skill as the starting defense.

The reason you need LSM is for fast transition, faceoffs, and defense on the other teams clears. I wouldn't take your best kid there i would put a bigger faster midfeilder there because thier stickhandleing is automaticly better

[3rdPersonPlural]

Thank you, Pagan, for your patient responses. You too, Cali.

In studying your responses, I am coming to the impression that big, physical defenders are a fact of life probably for the same reason that this was a fact of life back in my day - many athletes with size pick up lacrosse late, coaches want them on the field, so they give them a pole, teach them fundamental defense, and build a team with this reality in mind. Defenders with more developed stick skills are made into middies.

It's a role compelled by how talent drips into lacrosse programs, not by ideal characteristics.

Defense is a reactive game, whereas offense is proactive. Reactive responsibilities thrive on quick feet (not physical presence) and proactive responsibilities require precision more than speed.

As an official, I get to see more games and more players than anyone but the most itinerant fan. The best defender I saw all year was a kid from Colby playing in an alumni game. He seemed to be in 3 places at once. Flip Naumberg's CSU defense was small by any standard, but so quick that dodging was futile and adjustments/slides were blink-of-an-eye stuff.

I think that what Pagan is getting at is that in a perfect world, the entire pole squad would be quick enough and strong enough in stick skills to play LSM, but in reality a coach has to make do with kids who aren't mobile enough or good enough stickhandlers to play middie, but can play solid position defense.

Therefore, defensive strategy is generated to accommodate this skill set. It's a self perpetuating compromise.

[sharpshooterFTW]

lsm, the straight up deffinition is long stick middie. so he has to be versed in the offense.

on our team we use an lsm (which is useually me) to be the desegnated clearer. they must also be good with face-offs.

me being our lsm and stud d man. i like to be aggressive. i useually don't have to throw more than 3 checks for my attackmen, or middie, to get rid of the ball.

but lsm's need to be quick on their feet, good with their stick (whether it be ball handling, gb's, face-off's, shooting, clearing ect.) so really they have to be able to do everything well. unlike a regular defensemen who's job ends at the mid line. i also like to have me, or another takeaway like me on an lsm, they're also great to plug the hole in the man down unit.

[spike191]

another aspect i totaly forgot is that normaly the LSM plays up top on defense and rarely goes behind the cage. They have to be used to playing against middies who will dodge right at them unlike attackmen who tend to stay away. It makes defense for a smaller person alot harder. I'm not the best defenseive player on my team but i am the fastest. trasitions is where i shine and decking kids off the faceoff is great too. I college LSM is nothing but the pole who is faster, thats about it.

[Pagan30]

3rdperson... I think you have it. Good Luck to you..