My Questionable Calls This Evening

[michaeldwilson]

First, the field was too narrow, so the area to the left and right of the defensive area was about 5 yards wide. They didn't have any more room for the field (downslopes), but I did not like reffing that field.

For the first time in my reffing career, a player fouled out of the game with 5 personals. Playing the ball, he was winding up with one hand and not hitting the stick. I called a slash every time. I don't mind a guy winding up (I did that a fair amount when I played), but in my opinion you have to hit the stick when you do that. Any thoughts?

On the fourth foul, he left the field and threw his stick. That was his fifth: an unsportmanlike.

Also, I called a tripping when the offensive player was running to the goal and a defensive player tried to make the check and then accidentally tripped him from behind with his own legs. Opinions on this call?

Another question: If the defensive player tries to check the offensive player's stick, misses, and hits his legs, tripping him up, I would call that tripping. Thoughts?

Otherwise, a good game. I accidentally left my flags at home and had to use a bulky, rolled up yellow jersey. On one call, I couldn't get it out to throw it!

Mike

[SheepShank]

A player with a bad attitude shouldn't be in the game, and hopefully he was taken out the game after he threw his stick. So I do agree with that call.

The tripping calls I would say is up to the best judgement of the ref and it doesn't sound like you made any bad choices there either.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by michaeldwilson
For the first time in my reffing career, a player fouled out of the game with 5 personals. Playing the ball, he was winding up with one hand and not hitting the stick. I called a slash every time. I don't mind a guy winding up (I did that a fair amount when I played), but in my opinion you have to hit the stick when you do that. Any thoughts?
Depends, I don't call it a slash unless he gets helmet, that's pretty much how I ref at the HS level. Just talk to them and tell them to get stick and control their checks. Believe it or not you can really control a game by yelling "Get Stick" or "Control your checks 15."


Originally posted by michaeldwilson
On the fourth foul, he left the field and threw his stick. That was his fifth: an unsportmanlike.
Not a bad call but I might not always call this. Depends on what happened and how he threw his stick.


Originally posted by michaeldwilson Also, I called a tripping when the offensive player was running to the goal and a defensive player tried to make the check and then accidentally tripped him from behind with his own legs. Opinions on this call?
That's a trip.


Originally posted by michaeldwilson Another question: If the defensive player tries to check the offensive player's stick, misses, and hits his legs, tripping him up, I would call that tripping. Thoughts?
Trip or Slash.


Originally posted by michaeldwilson
Otherwise, a good game. I accidentally left my flags at home and had to use a bulky, rolled up yellow jersey. On one call, I couldn't get it out to throw it!
Make a checklist or just get a bag to keep all your stuff in it. If you make sure t

[stegmakk]

I basically agree with Snake Eyes...
On the first part about the wind ups....Close call...typically refs would give a warning to get some stick...when it happens a second time a flag and an explanation...

[michaeldwilson]

Originally posted by stegmakk
I basically agree with Snake Eyes...
On the first part about the wind ups....Close call...typically refs would give a warning to get some stick...when it happens a second time a flag and an explanation...

Here's the rule from high school lacrosse:

5.6 Art. 1: ... Swinging a crosse at an opponent's crosse or body with deliberate viciousness or reckless abandon, regardless of whether the opponent's crosse or body is struck.

5.6 Situation D: A1, advancing toward B1, holds his crosse back with one hand and protects his crosse with the other arm. B1 then swings his crosse and strikes A1's protective arm. RULING: Personal foul; slashing against B1.

I really haven't reffed many high school games, and I might let more go in collegiate or especially box. But in high school, I think I'm going to call a slash for any wind up that doesn't hit stick.

Mike

[PtownMiddie2]

props to your calls I am a high school player in NYS...and i ref in summer for the little kids leagues around i would have done the same thing called it exactly how you did.....you cant just let someone take a wrap check and miss its not a slash member technically theres no slash's in the rule book its an uncontrolled stick but it has been turned into a slash the rule book states that a player must be in control of his stick at all times and must be able to stop his stick whenever he is checking and if that isnt the case its an uncontrolled stick violation aka a slash

and on the trip calls if he trips him its a trip no matter if its accidental or not you made the right calls

good reffing keep it up

[Thrillhouse]

I would think that every call was right because you were the ref and that's how you called it. Don't let the power go to your head, but when you put on that ugly black and white shirt, your power is absolute for that game.

As far as fouls that happen because of an accident, you have to call it. If I got tripped, I wouldn’t want to get up and have the ref tell me the guy didn’t mean it so he's not calling it.

And the player that fouled out, that’s the coaches fault. He should have been sitting after his third.

You refs got a tough job. I decided awhile ago I couldn’t be a ref. I just can’t be that unbiased when I’m watching sports. If I’m watching two kids play tic-tac-toe, I have to pick one of them to root for.

[michaeldwilson]

Originally posted by Thrillhouse
I would think that every call was right because you were the ref and that's how you called it. Don't let the power go to your head, but when you put on that ugly black and white shirt, your power is absolute for that game.

Yeah, I have no illusions that I'm always right. That's why I post here to check on whether I'm getting them right. The one big call I missed last night was a player getting hit in the chin with a stick. He was behind three or four guys, and I just didn't see it. But you could tell afterwards from his body language that he took one on the chin.

What happened, though, is that his teammate went for some payback, hit the guy well away from the 5 yards limit, and was called for an illegal body check.

About the guy getting five personals, I didn't even know it until his team's scorekeeper told me. I asked the scorekeeper at halftime if anyone had four fouls, and he said one of the guys had five. I don't take the calls personally. I encourage guys who get fouls --even unsportsmanlike fouls -- to forget it and go score. That was a lesson it took me a long time to learn, especially playing box.

Mike

[LaxRef]

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
Depends, I don't call it a slash unless he gets helmet, that's pretty much how I ref at the HS level. Just talk to them and tell them to get stick and control their checks. Believe it or not you can really control a game by yelling "Get Stick" or "Control your checks 15."

It's irresponsible to decide that you'll only call a slash if it hits in the helmet. I've worked with guys like you and seen them pass on hard slashes to the ribs, legs, back, etc. It's just not fair to the players who are getting the crap beaten out of them, and it's not fair to your partner, who's forced to make excuses for you when he's on bench side.

I'll grant it's easier on the official to make a decision to never call certain fouls, since then you don't have to use your judgment. But judgment is what you're being paid for.

[LaxRef]

Originally posted by stegmakk
I basically agree with Snake Eyes...
On the first part about the wind ups....Close call...typically refs would give a warning to get some stick...when it happens a second time a flag and an explanation...

It all depends on the play.

Technically, a big swing that hits nothing but air can be called a slash, but most officials will pass on this unless it's obviously an attempt to hurt the other guy most officials will pass on this call (similarly with a big swing that gets only stick).

A big swing that gets stick *and* body, however, may well be called a slash; getting stick doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to avoid the body.

And some players have enough control to take a big swing starting from behind their back, but by the time there's contact they've stopped the arm motion and are making a light tap with the wrist. This *looks* like a slash, but it should be a no-call.

[LaxRef]

Originally posted by michaeldwilson
First, the field was too narrow, so the area to the left and right of the defensive area was about 5 yards wide. They didn't have any more room for the field (downslopes), but I did not like reffing that field.

For the first time in my reffing career, a player fouled out of the game with 5 personals. Playing the ball, he was winding up with one hand and not hitting the stick. I called a slash every time. I don't mind a guy winding up (I did that a fair amount when I played), but in my opinion you have to hit the stick when you do that. Any thoughts?
Mike

It is *VERY* impressive to foul out of a high school game--with 12-minute quarters--at all, let alone in the first half! In 7 years of officiating, I think I've seen one college player foul out and no high school players. I had a kid last week get three slashes in about a minute of the thrid quarter, but then he settled down.

Narrow fields are no fun, but just make sure that the box is always 35 x 40 yards; even if they have approval for a narrow or short field, the boxes MUST have those dimensions.

[Snake~eyes]

You guys are taking what I said incorrectly. It's not irresponsible at all, I don't get many vicious uncontrolled stick checks. Notice the key word DEPENDS at the beginning of my sentence. I will call vicious slashes if they are not in the helmet but I very rarely have those. Generally the only slashes I have to call are the ones that are helmet. Why? Because I use preventive officiating and talk to the players. We talk to them during the coin toss, the lineup and during the game; wrap checks are specifically addressed. I talk a lot to the players and don't have any vicious uncontrolled stick checks that you talk about. And when I do get it, it is called.

If a player gets 4 slashes each for a wrap check then you should have talked to him. Talk to him during the game, tell him to control his stick. After you throw the flag tell him you're going to call it every time. There's no reason a player should foul out in HS lacrosse.

[michaeldwilson]

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
You guys are taking what I said incorrectly. It's not irresponsible at all, I don't get many vicious uncontrolled stick checks. Notice the key word DEPENDS at the beginning of my sentence. I will call vicious slashes if they are not in the helmet but I very rarely have those. Generally the only slashes I have to call are the ones that are helmet. Why? Because I use preventive officiating and talk to the players. We talk to them during the coin toss, the lineup and during the game; wrap checks are specifically addressed. I talk a lot to the players and don't have any vicious uncontrolled stick checks that you talk about. And when I do get it, it is called.

If a player gets 4 slashes each for a wrap check then you should have talked to him. Talk to him during the game, tell him to control his stick. After you throw the flag tell him you're going to call it every time. There's no reason a player should foul out in HS lacrosse.

Hi Snake,

You're probably right. I may have been able to figure out a way to urge him not to slash, but I will only do so much. I'm not a friendly ref generally. I'm not there to make friends, I'm there to call an extremely fair and legal game. I played the game for 15 years, and reffed for the last three, but I haven't reffed many high school games.

I should add, I did tell the slasher, both coaches, and both benches, after the second or third slash, in precisely these words: "If you're going to swing the stick, you have to hit the stick." I was amazed the slasher racked up five. Now that I think of it, I don't believe I've ever played in a game where someone left because of 5 personals, even in box.

Ultimately, the only person he has to blame is himself, not anyone else. Even his own coach thought everything was called correctly.

Three or four on his team have the same habit of swinging the stick. What's interesting is that they are a good team. They were down the first half 6-5 in part because they kept getting penalties. After they cleaned it up, they went on to win 12-6. They played an excellent, almost penalty-free second half.

Mike

[Snake~eyes]

I don't think it has anything to do wit hbeing nice. I'm not there to make friends either, I don't joke with coaches and I'm very serious the entire game. But if preventitive officiating will keep the game more clean then I think its a good thing to do. And I do agree he is responsbile and no one else.