I need to know if its legal to cut a hole in my mesh

[ErcLax]

so like I said, is it legal to cut a hole in the top of my mesh, so the ball slides in, so basically, if I come to the faceoff and the ref sees it, will he care? And if it is illegal, how can I hide it?

[SheepShank]

Its Illegal, and I can't think of a way to hide it because its hole in your mesh. Unless of course you doubled up your stringing right before you cut it so the excess hangs over the hole, but that will probably mess up your throwing.

Anyways it doesn't really provide you with a better face off stick, and it will make in harder to catch as well. So I wouldn't suggest it.

[Aussie_kid]

i argee

[PtownMiddie2]

no way is it legal... i tried it 3 min stick penalty

[TheKOB]

anyone want to cite some rules, or are we just making an assumption? This was brought up on e-lacrosse awhile ago, but they didn't cite rules either...

[SheepShank]

Originally posted by TheKOB
anyone want to cite some rules, or are we just making an assumption? This was brought up on e-lacrosse awhile ago, but they didn't cite rules either...

I don't know have a copy of the rules so I can't cite where it says it, but I know its illegal for a fact, because I saw someone get a penalty for it during my season.

[Snake~eyes]

There is no specific ruling but it falls under NFHS Rule 1.8.

Here's ther part that makes it illegal "A crosse that has been altered in such a way as to give an advantage to an individual is illegal."

[TheKOB]

But theoretically (not arguing with the ruling on the hole in the pocket) that could be applied to pinching a stick, using mesh instead of traditional, or using plastic instead of wood. It seems aweful subjective to be considered a "rule".

[Snake~eyes]

Well I do agree that the rule is very subjective but your defense isn't very good for it. The rulebook says you can pinch the stick up to 6.5 inches. The rulebook says you can use mesh/tradional and plastic/wood. :) The rule book says nothing about being allowed to cut a hole.

[michaeldwilson]

The real question is why you would even want to cheat.

Just work hard and get better than the other guys.

Mike

[TheKOB]

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
Well I do agree that the rule is very subjective but your defense isn't very good for it. The rulebook says you can pinch the stick up to 6.5 inches. The rulebook says you can use mesh/tradional and plastic/wood. :) The rule book says nothing about being allowed to cut a hole.

True. I guess it's a matter of loose or strict interpretation of the rules. I figure that if it doesn't say anything about it, it's allowed. Using a blanket rule like that doesn't do anyone any good, refs, coaches or players. Seems to me like it stifles innovation, and it might just be kind of a lazy way out of addressing particular situations.

[LatinBabe]

its called loop holes... people use them all the time and end up creating a negative impact on the sport of community involved as new sets of rules and regulations are released that prohibit these and many othe questionable alterations we currently make to become illegal. namely the pinching of sticks and so forth.

[TheKOB]

Kind of like that armadillo some rather lowly ranked team used to take on one of the power houses...

did anyone else read that article in Lacrosse Magazine?

At any rate, I'd rather have loopholes than a blanket rule, since once you exploit a loop hole, it gets plugged up, and you have a list of concrete rules. Here's an extreme example, what if the rule about how long or short a stick could be was "It has to be of reasonable length as not to give an obnoxious advantage to the player using said stick". I'd be using telephone poles on defense and fiddlestix on O!

[stxlcr18]

it might be hard to figure out if its legal or not but y would u do that. its a cheap way at winning and isnt goin 2 work all the time. u are goin to lose repect and not become a good faceoff guy

[SheepShank]

Originally posted by stxlcr18
it might be hard to figure out if its legal or not but y would u do that. its a cheap way at winning and isnt goin 2 work all the time. u are goin to lose repect and not become a good faceoff guy


I know for a fact that its illeagal, and I was the first one to comment on this thread so I can't imagine its that hard to find out unless you can't read.:laugh


Or if you still ignored me you could just quote snake~eyes who also commented on this thread

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
Here's ther part that makes it illegal "A crosse that has been altered in such a way as to give an advantage to an individual is illegal."

[D4lax]

its illegal

[CoachRob]

First, I'm not sure how cutting a hole allows the ball to "slide in" to the head of the crosse. However, I CAN see how a hole would allow the ball to settle more deeply into the mesh pocket, thus violating NFHS 1-8: "A crosse that has been altered in such a way as to give an advantage to an individual is illegal."

Also, NFHS 1-7.2: "Any crosse in which the net is woven to the head in such a manner that a lip or hook is formed that might ensnare the ball is illegal."

By making a hole, you are creating a depression for the ball, and thus a "lip" is formed. Any crater, for instance, has a lip at the upper/outermost edge that you must go over before entering that crater (think about a volcano). So, there are at least TWO rules that do not allow you to cut a hole in your mesh.

ErcLax's comment If I come to the faceoff and the ref sees it, will he care? And if it is illegal, how can I hide it?. Yes, refs care. And it indicates that he is knowingly trying to cheat, which I don't accept. Why ask referees how to cheat? That's like asking a prison guard how to escape!

TheKOB wrote: Seems to me like it [a rule that prevents illegal alterations] stifles innovation, and it might just be kind of a lazy way out of addressing particular situations.. Stifling imagination? I don't think so. Imagination comes in the way you PLAY the game, not who can figure out the loop holes to make their crosse barely legal. How about creating a new dodge, or learning a new way to legally perform a combination stick check? There are no short cuts to excellence. Cutting holes or making other alterations to your crosse, rather than hitting the wall to improve your game, seems lazy to me, don't you think?

I'm not trying to sound harsh, but whatever happened to ethics and working hard within the limits of the game? Would you want the guy lining up AGAINST you cheating? Chances are you'd be the first to whine "Hey Ref, that guy is CHEATING".

As a coach, I have to certify to the ref before the game that my players' equipment meets standards, thus the ref does not line up the players before the game and do an equipment check on all the players, as they do in soccer. If I found out you were cheating, I'd yank you from the next two games, because if I tell the ref my players are all legal, and he finds you are NOT, then you have ruined MY reputation. And that is not acceptable to any coach who cares about the game or respects the rules. Plus, it brings extra attention by the ref to the rest of your team. Players who come up with these "innovations" have a habit of sharing these pearls of stick wizardry with teammates.

We played at team where THREE of the attackmen had cut their sticks to 39 inches. All exactly the same. You can bet the ref checked EVERY player on that team, slowing down play and embarrassing their coach. He apologized to our coaching staff and our team, and then tore into his own team after the game. We scored three goals during the NR penalies and they lost by two. I bet practice the next few days (it was REALLY hot that whole week) was a real pleasure to attend. I bet those three cheating players were not too popular with their friends, either.

[LaxMVP25]

i cant see the hole indefently creating a lip where if the stick id verticle upide down the ball wont fall out so i cant say that its against that but maybe over time. i cant argue against the blanket rule there because it could be used for anything. if you really wanted to cut a hole just string trad and forget to string inbetween the sidewall and the leather at the top and do a top corner clamp.

and my next question is does it matter where you line up your head in realvance to the head for example
___x___ _x_____ or _____x_ with x being the ball and the lines being the head

and i dont know why the refs dont check equiptment at the higher levels if anything i say at the modified levels have the refs a pregame lecture for their first 2 games and do that for a few levels but at jv and varsity check equiptment because the players are more apt to cheat at those levels

i know a little off topic here so i appologize

[CoachRob]

NCAA Rule 4-3: The official first shall place the ball on the ground at the center of the field. The players shall stand on the same side of the field as the goal each is defending. The official shall indicate to both players to assume their respective positions at the same time. The crosses and ball should be within the 4-inch-wide center stripe or as close as the equipment (ball and crosses) will permit. The crosses shall rest on the ground along the center line and be placed parallel to each other, up to but not touching the ball. Players may not back out and reset their positions once the official has started the positioning for a faceoff. The official shall make certain that the reverse surfaces of the crosses match evenly; and each player must have both hands on the handle of his own crosse, touching the ground but not touching any strings of the crosse. The player’s feet may not touch his crosse. Both hands and both feet of each player must be to the left of the throat of his crosse. The handle can touch the center line but not cross it completely. The feet must be behind the line and not touching it. No portion of either crosse may touch, and each player must be positioned so that his entire body is to the left of the throat of his crosse. It is legal to lean over the center line.

So, it only matters that the ball lies somewhere between the stop (throat) and top of the head, and the opponent has his head in the same relative position, you're safe.

As for why they don't check equipment? Because of time involved in measuring each stick. That's why the coach is supposed to police his own players and teach them that cheating is wrong.

As for cheating being more common at one level or another, I think if anything it's more common at UPPER levels because at lower levels, they don't understand the rules well enough and rarely string their own heads.

[ploaref]

hey, i know! put some chloroform on your glove and when the ref isn't looking, give the other face-off guy a little face wash with your glove!! Yeah! Thats it! Just knock him OUT! Why cut up a perfectly good stick mesh? All the other guys already know the 14 ways to cheat on a face-off...those zebras will talk themselves silly trying to find "chloroform" in their rulebooks and meanwhile, you'll become the face-off king of the world!

[CoachRob]

ploaref,
Do I detect some cynicism? What's all that bad about finding the ten best ways to cheat? David Letterman did a "Top 10 Top Ways to Cheat at Lax" list a few months ago on his Late Show. And I DON'T remember him mentioning chloroform! You are correct though; try as I may, I see NOTHING that mentions a face wash with chloroform being against ANY rule. So, you've come up with something "imaginitive". But did you have to share it with these impressionable kids? (I think the NCAA is being lazy by omitting chloroform from the rulebook.)

[LaxRef]

Originally posted by CoachRob
ploaref,
Do I detect some cynicism? What's all that bad about finding the ten best ways to cheat? David Letterman did a "Top 10 Top Ways to Cheat at Lax" list a few months ago on his Late Show. And I DON'T remember him mentioning chloroform! You are correct though; try as I may, I see NOTHING that mentions a face wash with chloroform being against ANY rule. So, you've come up with something "imaginitive". But did you have to share it with these impressionable kids? (I think the NCAA is being lazy by omitting chloroform from the rulebook.)

I'm not really sure, but you *might* be able to stretch the USC penalty to cover chloroform. I'll e-mail my district rules interpreter.

I missed that Letterman; can you please post a video clip or at least type in the list for us to all see?

[ploaref]

i ran over to the Letterman Top 10 Archive and, sadly, i think the good doctor was injecting a bit of his OWN humor into the thread...i searched the archive with the hope of posting THAT gem...but couldn't find it. Maybe we could start a new thread and take submissions to create such a list??

[LaxRef]

Originally posted by ploaref
i ran over to the Letterman Top 10 Archive and, sadly, i think the good doctor was injecting a bit of his OWN humor into the thread...i searched the archive with the hope of posting THAT gem...but couldn't find it. Maybe we could start a new thread and take submissions to create such a list??

Yeah, I knew he was kidding. I was kidding back.

[LaxMVP25]

Originally posted by CoachRob

So, it only matters that the ball lies somewhere between the stop (throat) and top of the head, and the opponent has his head in the same relative position, you're safe.

As for why they don't check equipment? Because of time involved in measuring each stick. That's why the coach is supposed to police his own players and teach them that cheating is wrong.

As for cheating being more common at one level or another, I think if anything it's more common at UPPER levels because at lower levels, they don't understand the rules well enough and rarely string their own heads.

but if one person has the ball at the throte and the at the scoop who gets in trouble? does the ref just say move your heads?

and i dont mean measure evberyones equiptment because of course that would be rediculos but they could at least line everyone up and look if their palms are cut and dont have metal cleats.

oh and i'm pretty sure chris cercy cut a hole in his mesh i couldnt find on elacrosse it saying that cercy did but this is what cuting a hole might look like http://www.hustlinlax.com/faceoff1.jpg

[CCboylax]

they dont line up thats why you can get away with some of this stuff....

[LaxRef]

Originally posted by LaxMVP25
and i dont mean measure evberyones equiptment because of course that would be rediculos but they could at least line everyone up and look if their palms are cut and dont have metal cleats.

I understand they DO measure everyone's sticks before the game in women's lacrosse.

They used to have us occasionally check equipment during the game, not a "full service" equipment check, but, say, we'd grab a stick and measure it, or we'd check the gloves, or the cleats, or the shoulder pads or something really quickly during a dead ball. This was in addition to doing a full-service equipment check at the end of the first and third periods. The idea was that a lot of teams know who has illegal equipment and they get it off the field before the end of the period. Although you can check anyone, even a bench player, most officials grab someone who was on the field at the end of the period.

Now, for NCAA at least, they don't want us doing ANY checks except between periods, and then ONLY the sticks, not anything else. They say they want to keep the game moving, but it seems to me that it's at the expense of the integrity of the game. I mean, it really didn't take more than an extra 20 seconds to check ALL of a players equipment between periods as opposed to just the stick. Does saving 40 seconds per game really mean anything?