My Questionable Calls Today

[michaeldwilson]

I didn't have many questions, but I did blow a real easy call. Team A player gained possession of a loose ball and within five yards his team mate body checked Team B player. I couldn't precisely see that he had gained possession because his back was to me. It should have been illegal body check, and instead I yelled "within five yards."

Question 1. Both players on the face off are required to have both hands wrapped around the stick. How long are they required to keep both hands on the stick after the whistle, if they are required to keep them there at all?

Question 2. The push in the back can be difficult when a Team A player is running with the ball along the sideline. Team B wishes to push him out of bounds, but hits him on the side but just a little behind on the shoulder. Do you call it? I don't, but the coach didn't like my interpretation. Thoughts?

Thanks,

Mike

[laxfreghtrain]

Originally posted by michaeldwilson
Question 1. Both players on the face off are required to have both hands wrapped around the stick. How long are they required to keep both hands on the stick after the whistle, if they are required to keep them there at all?

well, since players arent allowed to play with one hand off the stick, and you cant play with no hands on your stick, i am going to take a stab at this one and say yes they are required to keep their hands on the stick, and both must be on the stick. maybe im not picturing this correctly, but whenever someone takes their hands off the stick, they use it as leverage or as a barrier between the ball and their opponent. even still, it is illegal to play with one hand off the stick, unless it is a clean one-handed pickup, and the players dont have to scrap for the ball. if the ball is on the ground and in contention, then both hands must still be on the stick for the duration of the player's involvement in the scrum for the ball

[LaxRef]

Originally posted by michaeldwilson
Question 1. Both players on the face off are required to have both hands wrapped around the stick. How long are they required to keep both hands on the stick after the whistle, if they are required to keep them there at all?

Question 2. The push in the back can be difficult when a Team A player is running with the ball along the sideline. Team B wishes to push him out of bounds, but hits him on the side but just a little behind on the shoulder. Do you call it? I don't, but the coach didn't like my interpretation. Thoughts?


Answer 1: There are no such requirements after the whistle.

Answer 2: Your judgment here. I like to think about hitting directly from the side being okay, but once you rotate toward the back from there it's "from behind."

Sideline pushes are important. The principal of advantage/disadvantage (TPOAD) says that you shouldn't call a foul if it doesn't give an advantage to the team committing it or disadvantage the team on the receiving (TPOAD doesn't apply to cases where judgment isn't really involved, like line calls, or safety calls, like slashes).

In other words, not all pushes from behind are the same. If I push you from behind when you're running down the middle of the field, and you don't drop the ball, you don't fall down, and you aren't otherwise disadvantaged, there should be no call.

However, if I make the *same* push from behind and it forces you out of bound, the official *must* throw a flag, because otherwise you're rewarded with the ball for your dastardly illegal activity.

The same thing goes for a push from behind that causes you to go offside, or to go into the crease, or to miss a shot opportunity.

Don't forget here that if the player turns just before the contact--to make what would have been a legal push end up being a push inthe bacl--there's no foul. I make a little circle with my index finger to indicate the player turned before the push (or check) to let people know that's what I'm ruling.

[laxfreghtrain]

Originally posted by LaxRef
Answer 1: There are no such requirements after the whistle.


maybe you posted so soon after me that you didnt see my post, but there is a requirement. its called holding. refer below:

SECTION 4. A player shall not impede the movement of an opponent or
his crosse.
a. A player may not:
(1) Use the portion of the handle that is between his hands to hold an
opponent.
(2) Step on the crosse of an opponent.
(3) Hold an opponent with his crosse.
(4) Hold or pin an opponent’s crosse against the body of the opponent
with his crosse.
(5) Hold an opponent with his free hand that is off the crosse.

using number five, if one of the players takes his hand off the stick and still attempts to go after the ball, then it will be a holding violation unless the player goes immediately to hit the opposing player and prevent him from entering the play, thereby allowing a teammate to pick up the ball

[LaxRef]

Originally posted by laxfreghtrain
maybe you posted so soon after me that you didnt see my post, but there is a requirement. its called holding. refer below:

SECTION 4. A player shall not impede the movement of an opponent or
his crosse.
a. A player may not:
<snip>
(5) Hold an opponent with his free hand that is off the crosse.

using number five, if one of the players takes his hand off the stick and still attempts to go after the ball, then it will be a holding violation unless the player goes immediately to hit the opposing player and prevent him from entering the play, thereby allowing a teammate to pick up the ball

This is certainly NOT true. The rules do not prohibit you from taking one hand off the stick, although some coaches tell players that to get them to avoid doing stupid stuff. It is illegal to take your hand off the crosse and *do* something significant with it (hold the opponent, push the opponent, really even touch the opponent, although the principal of advantage/disadvantage might keep you from calling a lot of these).

I'll tell you one thing: you start calling holding on the faceoff just because a player takes his hand off the stick, and you are going to have some *irate* coaches, and rightfully so.

[michaeldwilson]

Here is the reason I ask. Players are required to have two hands on the crosse for a face off, but a face off doesn't end until possession, crossing the defensive line, out of bounds, penalties.

If the face off has not ended, why would the rule not remain in force?

Mike

[Snake~eyes]

Good question but if your theory was true then what would allow a player to even take his hands off the ground?

Partial Quote NFHS 4.3.3
"each player shall have both hands on the handle of his own crosse, touching the ground"

If you read later on 4.3.5
"At the sound of the whistle, each player may attempt to direct the course of the ball by the movement of his crosse in any manner he desires."

[LaxRef]

Originally posted by michaeldwilson
Here is the reason I ask. Players are required to have two hands on the crosse for a face off, but a face off doesn't end until possession, crossing the defensive line, out of bounds, penalties.

If the face off has not ended, why would the rule not remain in force?


Look at it this way: it also says the sticks have to be on the ground, with the sticks parallel to the midline and the heads vertical and not touching the ball, etc., but we don't require the faceoff men to comply with any of *those* provisions once the whistle blows. Why should they also need to keep two hands on the stick when that provision is in the same section?

[Snake~eyes]

haha well we're on the same page on this one LaxRef.

[michaeldwilson]

That makes sense guys. Thanks.

M.

[GeorgiaMiddie2]

as for question #2, the way US Lacrosse justifies whether the hit is from behind or not is the position of their feet. if the feet of the guy without the ball are behind the feet of the guy with the ball, it is from behind. some people also use the players' helmets as an indicator. i usually use the positions of the players' helmets since it's alot less shady.

[LaxRef]

Originally posted by GeorgiaMiddie2
as for question #2, the way US Lacrosse justifies whether the hit is from behind or not is the position of their feet. if the feet of the guy without the ball are behind the feet of the guy with the ball, it is from behind. some people also use the players' helmets as an indicator. i usually use the positions of the players' helmets since it's alot less shady.

I'd like to know where you go this interpretation of "from behind." All I can find in the rulebook is:

==========
Pushing
SECTION 10. A player shall not thrust or shove an opponent from the rear.
A push is exerting pressure after contact is made and is not a violent blow.
Pushing is permitted from the front or side when an opponent has possession
of the ball or is within 5 yards of a loose ball. In this case, pushing must
be done with either closed hand, shoulder or forearm and both hands must
be on the crosse.

==========

[Snake~eyes]

I'm pretty sure he said USLacrosse. Not NCAA. But I have never read any USLacrosse rule documents so I have never heard of that either.

[GeorgiaMiddie2]

no, it's not a specific rule... it's just a general guideline they give in their training videos

[TheKOB]

I've seen guys pushed out of bounds from behind and not called...am I to assume that it's illegal? I figured as much, but maybe I was missing something, or the ref missed a call....

[michaeldwilson]

Originally posted by TheKOB
I've seen guys pushed out of bounds from behind and not called...am I to assume that it's illegal? I figured as much, but maybe I was missing something, or the ref missed a call....

It's illegal. The question is "from behind." If someone is hit in the shoulder slightly to the back, is that "from behind"?

The more I think about it, the more I think yes.

What do you call, Harold?

Mike

[LaxRef]

Originally posted by TheKOB
I've seen guys pushed out of bounds from behind and not called...am I to assume that it's illegal? I figured as much, but maybe I was missing something, or the ref missed a call....

It is illegal, and should be called even if it's not a really bad push, because of TPOAD. However, often when it happens the offensive player turns just before contact, in which case you don't make the call, or the official doesn't think it's from behind from his perspective and you do.

Not all officials are familiar with TPOAD, though, nor are a lot of coaches. Coaches want the push from behind called even if there's no disadvantage to their team. In this case (push from behind making the player in posession go out of bounds), you need to throw the flag, since otherwise the defense gets rewarded for their illegal action.

[spenny]

TPOAD, i love it! it sounds like a james bond villian organization.

TPOAD is hard for coaches to understand, its even harder for parents.

[LaxRef]

Originally posted by michaeldwilson
It's illegal. The question is "from behind." If someone is hit in the shoulder slightly to the back, is that "from behind"?

The more I think about it, the more I think yes.

What do you call, Harold?

Mike

It's always a judgment call. My rule of thumb is that if you hit from the side, so that the shoulders of one player and the shoulders of the other form a "T," then you're okay, but if you og any further toward the back than that you are "from behind." Part of this is my mathematical background speaking: if any component of the vector is in the direction corresponding to "from behind," you're from behind.

But I'm not so literal on the field. If it's a small push and it's only a little from behind, it probably gets let go.

All of this is keeping in mind TPOAD: if the push is a little from behind but it makes the opponent go out of bounds, you call it.

Three other caveats:

1. You always have to watch to make sure the offensive player doesn't turn before the contact.

2. You need to be alert to the offensive player trying to draw the push by intentionally stopping so the guy chasing him runs into him.

3. You need to watch to see if the offensive player flops due to light contact, trying to draw the foul. This is illegal procedure: award the ball to the other team.

[michaeldwilson]

Originally posted by LaxRef
2. You need to be alert to the offensive player trying to draw the push by intentionally stopping so the guy chasing him runs into him.

All good to know. Thanks.

In point 2, wouldn't this be a good play, stopping and
letting the guy hit you illegally?

Mike

[LaxRef]

Originally posted by michaeldwilson
All good to know. Thanks.

In point 2, wouldn't this be a good play, stopping and
letting the guy hit you illegally?

In this case, the defensive player isn't pushing the offensive player, the offensive player is making the action that causes the contact. I wouldn't call it.

It's very much in the same vein as the "turning" rule, where we don't allow the offensive player to turn at the last second to draw a push in the back.

[michaeldwilson]

Yeah, I don't know, Harold. The rules explicitly point
to "turning," but are silent on a player stopping. How
do we know if the offensive player intends to cause the
action or not when he/she stops?

Mike

[Snake~eyes]

Pushing in the back at anytime(unless a player turns) is illegal. A lot of times smaller pushes are not called. Either that or the official judged that the pushg was from the side.

[TheKOB]

Originally posted by spenny
TPOAD, i love it! it sounds like a james bond villian organization.

TPOAD is hard for coaches to understand, its even harder for parents.

Understand? I don't even know about it! Please someone explain what you mean by this acronym...

[LatinBabe]

ok... i was watching the Texas D2 champ game the other day and have a few q's...

with 2 mins to go the winning team cannot exit the restraining box without being called for delay of game right?

well, what if the winning team got #1 pushed out of the box and #2 was hit with a cross-check to the head in the process. would the fact that he left the box (even though he was physically thrown more like) over ride the illegal checks and pushing he recieved?

not that it affected the over-all outcome of the game, but it did make the game closer as the losing team brought the score to with a point then.

[LaxRef]

Originally posted by TheKOB
Understand? I don't even know about it! Please someone explain what you mean by this acronym...

Sorry, I defined it in a post in a different thread, I think. TPOAD = "The principle of advantage/disadvantage." In short, it's the guideline that says--except for saftey calls and line calls (and other calls that are balck and white)--you don't call a foul unless it disadvantages the team fouled or gives an advantage to the fouling team.

For example, if I push you from behind as you run up the field clearing, but you don't fall or lose the ball, no flag. The same psuh from behind forcing you out of bounds needs to be flagged, since otherwise you get the ball for your illegal push. The same idea applies if I push you offside, or into the crease, or past the goal so you miiss your shot or lose a shot opportunity.

[TheKOB]

Originally posted by LaxRef
Sorry, I defined it in a post in a different thread, I think. TPOAD = "The principle of advantage/disadvantage." In short, it's the guideline that says--except for saftey calls and line calls (and other calls that are balck and white)--you don't call a foul unless it disadvantages the team fouled or gives an advantage to the fouling team.

For example, if I push you from behind as you run up the field clearing, but you don't fall or lose the ball, no flag. The same psuh from behind forcing you out of bounds needs to be flagged, since otherwise you get the ball for your illegal push. The same idea applies if I push you offside, or into the crease, or past the goal so you miiss your shot or lose a shot opportunity.

Oh, alright, I've heard that described to me before....it sounded like you have to do a philisophical debate inside your head before you make a call...rouch.

Stuff like this makes me wish for 4-6 refs a game, rather than 1-2.

[michaeldwilson]

Originally posted by LatinBabe
ok... i was watching the Texas D2 champ game the other day and have a few q's...

with 2 mins to go the winning team cannot exit the restraining box without being called for delay of game right?

well, what if the winning team got #1 pushed out of the box and #2 was hit with a cross-check to the head in the process. would the fact that he left the box (even though he was physically thrown more like) over ride the illegal checks and pushing he recieved?

not that it affected the over-all outcome of the game, but it did make the game closer as the losing team brought the score to with a point then.

Yes, if you are ahead and there are two minutes left in the game, the ref will tell you to "keep it in" the box.

If you are hit legally out of the box, you turn the ball over.

If you are hit illegally out of the box, the other team will have to serve penalty time, you keep the ball, but you will still have to keep it in the box.

Mike

[LatinBabe]

then we had some screwy refs... refused to make the call... although EVERYONE saw it.. heck, half the stands were booing tremendously when they saw the hit.. before the ref even made the call...

[michaeldwilson]

Originally posted by LatinBabe
then we had some screwy refs... refused to make the call... although EVERYONE saw it.. heck, half the stands were booing tremendously when they saw the hit.. before the ref even made the call...

All refs make bad calls from time to time, in every sport, even at the highest levels.

Mike

[LatinBabe]

yeah but is was kinda funny.. this was the champ game and all four refs were obviously watching closely (you could see it in their eyes :agree) and not a one of them makes the call.

im not mad, i know bad calls are made alot, and one really doesnt make too huge an impact most of the time.

now.. had we lost the game their would be some bad blood right about now... but hey... we won in the end.