[POLITICS] Bush's 5 point plan speech

[BTlaxripper]

Thank God.

Everything I wanted to hear.

Of course we can't deport 12 million poeple, so there needs to be a worker program. And 6,000 more border agents. . . while I would like to atleast have the National Guard there, that's atleast a step in the right direction.

I hope you all watched this, because Illegal Immigration is probably the defining issue of our generation, and this was a good presidential address, reminding me personally of what America is all about.

[fossil8412]

I definitely liked the 5 point plan, however his speech was absolutely terrible...

[BTlaxripper]

I definitely liked the 5 point plan, however his speech was absolutely terrible...

How was it terrible? Sure it was no 'day that will live in infamy' -- but it was good.

[enjoi]

Thank God.

Everything I wanted to hear.

Of course its what you wanted to hear, you're a Republican
I hope you all watched this, because Illegal Immigration is probably the defining issue of our generation, and this was a good presidential address, reminding me personally of what America is all about.
HA! Iraq, which unlike illegal immigration is an actual problem is the defining issue of our generation. If you sincerely believe that illegal immigration is the defining issue of our generation, I say that you are short sighted and foolish.

We'll have to deal with the repercussions of it until we are dead and further after that. But it is so obvious that this speech is a purely political move. Republicans need to get the public eye off of the NSA spying on its own citizens and the economy and Iraq so what do they do?

HAY GUYZ LETS BLAME THE MEXICANS!

[BTlaxripper]

Of course its what you wanted to hear, you're a Republican

HA! Iraq, which unlike illegal immigration is an actual problem is the defining issue of our generation. If you sincerely believe that illegal immigration is the defining issue of our generation, I say that you are short sighted and foolish.

We'll have to deal with the repercussions of it until we are dead and further after that. But it is so obvious that this speech is a purely political move. Republicans need to get the public eye off of the NSA spying on its own citizens and the economy and Iraq so what do they do?

HAY GUYZ LETS BLAME THE MEXICANS!

Purely political move????? Are you joking????????

Because Democrats capitalizing on the spanish vote by opposing any proposals Bush comes up with is DEFINETLY not a purely political move.

(10)

Do you think, that by some weird coincidence, the president actually has a job to do and has to stop dabbling in partisan politics?

Seriously.

[enjoi]

Purely political move????? Are you joking????????

Because Democrats capitalizing on the spanish vote by opposing any proposals Bush comes up with is DEFINETLY not a purely political move.

What better way to get Americans pissed off and angry/distracted than to get them angry at people who don't have the money or power to defend themselves!
What a great way to make an issue out of a non issue! It isn't even that big a deal and oh would you look at that the timing is just PERFECT to distract us from real issues like the NSA spying on its own citizens, and the poorly going "war" in Iraq.
Do you think, that by some weird coincidence, the president actually has a job to do and has to stop dabbling in partisan politics?
HA! He's done it before, why wouldn't he do it again?

I mean he got re-elected in 2004 right? So he did dabble in Partisan politics while in office.

[dtl42]

Because Democrats capitalizing on the spanish vote by opposing any proposals Bush comes up with is DEFINETLY not a purely political move.

Ok well at least democrats have the brains to make any political moves, and arent lame ducks

[fossil8412]

How was it terrible? Sure it was no 'day that will live in infamy' -- but it was good.

It just sounded too much like it was written by him. We've just recently covered the 50s-80s in my AP US History class, so I guess I simply expect too much from our current president because I compare him to some of the REAL orators of the time. He had a few slip-ups as well, especially that of "Guada loopy" instead of "Guadaloupe." Also, it was a little wordy and his sentences were too choppy; they could have easily been compounded to make him atleast appear to be intellectual.

The 5 point plan was good though, no doubt. I shoot right handed (if you know what I mean), but I must say the speech wasn't that great.

[marflax33]

Ok well at least democrats have the brains to make any political moves, and arent lame ducks

Ohhh a lame duck?!?!?! Its getting serious in here. And i must, even though i am mostly republican, disagree with you on the mexican immigration being the biggest problem BT... I think the whole iraq war thing takes illegal immigration and beats it with a bamboo stick. Lives of american troops are much more important to me than people hopping the border to come work minimum wage and demand rights.

[BTlaxripper]

What better way to get Americans pissed off and angry/distracted than to get them angry at people who don't have the money or power to defend themselves!
What a great way to make an issue out of a non issue! It isn't even that big a deal and oh would you look at that the timing is just PERFECT.

HA! He's done it before, why wouldn't he do it again?

I mean he got re-elected in 2004 right? So he did dabble in Partisan politics while in office.

A NON ISSUE?

And yeah he got re-elected, stop playing rhetorical games, it devalues your arguement and adds nothing to the debate.

O boy, liberals and their conspiracy theories. Because Bush's plan has nothing to do with securing the sovereignty of America. Defining American culture. Tackling a problem no other presidents have ever set foot in because they knew it was a mess. This is getting rid of the problem before it gets worse.

12 million undocumented people have already entered the United States. Sure SOME are here to work -- but let's not forget drug dealers, gang members, those who just want to live off welfare, terrorists, etc.

Yeah -- this is just partisan politics, not an attempt at helping America -- because Bush is a republican, and republicans don't do those good things.

[BTlaxripper]

Ohhh a lame duck?!?!?! Its getting serious in here. And i must, even though i am mostly republican, disagree with you on the mexican immigration being the biggest problem BT... I think the whole iraq war thing takes illegal immigration and beats it with a bamboo stick. Lives of american troops are much more important to me than people hopping the border to come work minimum wage and demand rights.

Okay okay, fine -- domestic issue. . . agree?

[dtl42]

Why dont some of you guys who dont like the immigrants do the jobs they get paid under minimum wage for, cause if they were gone then thats who would have to do them, so basically they are the majority of people feeding our manual labor force

[fossil8412]

Okay okay, fine -- domestic issue. . . agree?

Agree... And I don't want to hear anything about the administration being a "'lame duck." Congress hasn't exactly made things easy.

[BTlaxripper]

Agree... And I don't want to hear anything about the administration being a "'lame duck." Congress hasn't exactly made things easy.

Congress as a whole has a lower approval rating than Bush.

[fossil8412]

Why dont some of you guys who dont like the immigrants do the jobs they get paid under minimum wage for, cause if they were gone then thats who would have to do them, so basically they are the majority of people feeding our manual labor force

You're right they are, however they expend more money than they receive every year due to all of the benefits that they are awarded without having to pay taxes. In addition, they are exploiting democracy without contributing at all. This bill actually isn't hindering immigrants' lives, it is benefitting them by helping them strive to learn english and create a career path, as Bush said.

[BTlaxripper]

You're right they are, however they expend more money than they receive every year due to all of the benefits that they are awarded without having to pay taxes. In addition, they are exploiting democracy without contributing at all. This bill actually isn't hindering immigrants' lives, it is benefitting them by helping them strive to learn english and create a career path, as Bush said.


Exactly.

There are many layers to this problem:
-Some don't want to assimilate, and are basically trying to colonize the US
-Unguarded borders are in one word: dangerous
-The drain on the economy they place (yeah sure they do provide cheap labor, but the benefits they receive outweigh what they contribute)
-It's about time we define the modern America -- and make English the official language! I want to swear but it wouldn't help.

[dtl42]

You're right they are, however they expend more money than they receive every year due to all of the benefits that they are awarded without having to pay taxes. In addition, they are exploiting democracy without contributing at all. This bill actually isn't hindering immigrants' lives, it is benefitting them by helping them strive to learn english and create a career path, as Bush said.

they pay taxes through their jobs and they get virtually no health benefits, plus its really hard to become a citizen the attorneys make them pay in cash, so they mostly have to work and live the way they do now

[stinisonfire]

I hope you all watched this, because Illegal Immigration is probably the defining issue of our generation, and this was a good presidential address, reminding me personally of what America is all about.

Besides say, The Iraq War or 9/11.

[marflax33]

Congress as a whole has a lower approval rating than Bush.

And the majority of congress is republican... are they not??? hmm.... Do the democrats have the population numbers on their side now?

and agreed with the domestic issue.

[jory]

is there a poll on republican and democratic people on this forum
o ya theres the 3rd party...forgot about them...

[stinisonfire]

Why dont some of you guys who dont like the immigrants do the jobs they get paid under minimum wage for, cause if they were gone then thats who would have to do them, so basically they are the majority of people feeding our manual labor force

By your statement, I know that you a) are not 18 and b) have never worked a manual labor job, ever.

[fossil8412]

they pay taxes through their jobs and they get virtually no health benefits, plus its really hard to become a citizen the attorneys make them pay in cash, so they mostly have to work and live the way they do now

They pay taxes through their jobs? How? As you stated, they make below minimum wage so obviously they don't pay that much in taxes, if any. Most likely though, they don't pay taxes because they have illegitimate papers, allowing them to have no direct corrolation, like paying taxes, with the government. And yes, they do receive health and many other benefits because of the free clinics set up by we, the Americans. Not to mention, its fairly simple to qualify for most Welfare and foodstamp related programs in the United States because they are typically managed on more local levels.

[enjoi]

A NON ISSUE?
Yes, see my previous posts.
O boy, liberals and their conspiracy theories. Because Bush's plan has nothing to do with securing the sovereignty of America. Defining American culture. Tackling a problem no other presidents have ever set foot in because they knew it was a mess. This is getting rid of the problem before it gets worse.
Soveriginty of America is our right to own nukes and pretty much do whatever we want. If I recall correctly we got soverignety though when France recognized us and worldwide recognition after the war of 1812.
National language = English. Problem solved. Not that we even need to define American culture because there is no American culture, its the culture of amalgamation of hundreds of other cultures. Look at the differences between the Northern states and Southern states. New York and L.A. Even between 2 cities in the same state there a large culture differences. Sometimes even areas of the same city! My point is that there is no one universal "American" culture. If there is then what time period do we pick to say "this is Americana". And you can try to answer, but you can't because like I said previously the great thing about this country is that we are the sum of the whole. Therefore wasting time trying to define a fluid culture is pointless.
12 million undocumented people have already entered the United States. Sure SOME are here to work -- but let's not forget drug dealers, gang members, those who just want to live off welfare, terrorists, etc.
Yes because thats a grand total of them! I would love to have the statistic on it and I bet its less than 1% of illegal immigrants that even do that.
Yeah -- this is just partisan politics, not an attempt at helping America -- because Bush is a republican, and republicans don't do those good things.
Well not his administration apparently. I still have yet to see a valid arugement for the NSA spying on the press and citizens outside suspected terrorists.

[stinisonfire]

Purely political move????? Are you joking????????

Because Democrats capitalizing on the spanish vote by opposing any proposals Bush comes up with is DEFINETLY not a purely political move.

(10)

Do you think, that by some weird coincidence, the president actually has a job to do and has to stop dabbling in partisan politics?

Seriously.

Just in case you didn't know, illegal immigrants can't vote. Because they are illegal and don't have the rights that Americans do. Because they are illegal.

[BTlaxripper]

Besides say, The Iraq War or 9/11.

DOMESTIC issue.

And 9/11 was -- this is going to sound bad I think but try to understand -- 9/11 was an incident, not an issue.

BUT BACK ON TOPIC!

I'm trying to foster a political discussion here and you guys are commenting on useless stuff.

[lildixon]

Come on BTlax...keep sluggin Im rooten for ya

[stinisonfire]

DOMESTIC issue.

And 9/11 was -- this is going to sound bad I think but try to understand -- 9/11 was an incident, not an issue.


Wow, if you don't think that was an issue, you shouldn't be allowed to ever speak, let alone be a mod of a forum.

And if you're going to change your opinion on something you stated earlier, make sure you say it correctly in the first place.

Domestic issue? How about the tens of thousands of people who are effected, here in the States, who know loved ones who are overseas in the Armed Forces?

[fossil8412]

BT man I'm totally en-route with you. Enjoi, have you even declared your position on the means for integrating immigrants into the U.S.? I mean, you've criticized, but I am curious to hear what you want. Amnesty, is that it?

[marflax33]

Wow, if you don't think that was an issue, .

It wasnt really an issue. But it did raise awareness on another issue, which was terrorism.

edit- bwahaha beat you to it fossil :)

[fossil8412]

9/11 was an incident, however the reprocussions are an issue.

[lildixon]

Is it me or does Enjoi keep trying to hammer the same point and is hitting his finger

[marflax33]

Is it me or does Enjoi keep trying to hammer the same point and is hitting his finger

Oh no, enjoi knows what hes talking about... His general point is bush is an idiot.... And he has plenty of facts to back it up. Haha i can pretty much post in these threads until he gets here, than he addresses my views on it all and im forced to run back to the equipment forum.

[stinisonfire]

I'll be back in a few on this discussion, after 24 is over.

[lildixon]

Oh no, enjoi knows what hes talking about... His general point is bush is an idiot.... And he has plenty of facts to back it up. Haha i can pretty much post in these threads until he gets here, than he addresses my views on it all and im forced to run back to the equipment forum.

Does he think Bush is an idiot or republicans? Because if he is saying bush is an idiot then what does he think about Clinton? :chuckle:

[BTlaxripper]

Wow, if you don't think that was an issue, you shouldn't be allowed to ever speak, let alone be a mod of a forum.

And if you're going to change your opinion on something you stated earlier, make sure you say it correctly in the first place.

Domestic issue? How about the tens of thousands of people who are effected, here in the States, who know loved ones who are overseas in the Armed Forces?

There are differences between an incident and an issue.

Pearl Harbor? Incident
Invasion of Japan? Issue

9/11? Incident
Terrorists within US borders, airline security, economic repurcussions? Issue.

Stop arguing semantics, if you can't argue on the issue we are discussing, leave and make your own thread, most expectedly titled "Bush is a loser".

You know very well Iraq isn't classified as a domestic issue, because the name of the issue is another freakin country. . . It's happening overseas, there fore -- domestic.

This is the last response of stupid crap I'm going to make.

[lildixon]

If anyone wants to discuss this go on AIM and go into a chat room called ChatBushs5pointplanspeech

[marflax33]

If anyone wants to discuss this go on AIM and go into a chat room called ChatBushs5pointplanspeech
better idea
http://www.lacrosseforums.com/showthread.php?t=34954&highlight=chatroom

[MainLax28]

I personally feel that the illegal immigration issue is the most important issue of our generation since it will effect more of us personally that the war in Iraq will. I am sure that over 50% of the people on this forum have no first or second generation relative over there. I personally do, and you know what he loves it. Sure it sucks to be away from family, but he is happier now than ever before cause he actually gets to fight in the military instead of sitting at a desk.

Anyway. I live in an are where housing development and landscaping are two of the largest industries. There are more and more people of spanish origin here (since "Mexican" isn't politically correct) than ever before. Just today on my way home from school, I saw at least 2 dozen walking around the town. My dad who is the public defender in the city has at least 5 cases a week now that he knows aren't legally here. You ask anyone around, and they complain about how the illegals shouldn't be here. It is harder for me to get a job since I won't work for less than minimum wage.

Now, for their part, there are some who actually want to be here. My 2 uncles are both immigrants, and they both work their asses off to keep their family together and guess what, they both speak english! I have no problem with people like this since that is what America is based upon. For me it is the ones who go around slinging the Mexican flag, and acting like they have rights and speaking Spanish! Guess what, you don't.

I do support Bush since I feel that he has dealt with more crap than any other president, and am a full out Conservative. I even think we should become an isolationist nation, but that is me. Seeing how the government isn't taking large enough steps to solve this problem such as killing unreasonable criminalistic illegals, and building a million dollar fence, we the people need to take issues into our own hands. Donate a couple extra dollars to the Operation Minuteman. Refuse to deal with people who won't speak english. Take lower paying jobs. Anything you can that'll help stop them is helping our nation. It is time that we stop relying on the government to do everything for us and take matters into out own hands.

[enjoi]

-Some don't want to assimilate, and are basically trying to colonize the US
Colonizing is SUCH the wrong word for it. Migrating, yes. The are moving from one area of the world (Mexico) to the U.S. for one reason alone: Money. Thats it. They are not trying to control the U.S. politically (they can't, no right to vote), They can't take us over culturally (we are a nation of other cultures). The absolute worst they could do is have what happens in Quebec happen in South-Western states, which is have all signs in Spanish and English. OH GOD THE HORROR!
-Unguarded borders are in one word: dangerous
True, and I agree, we need to make sure our borders are as safe as possible. I don't think anyone can really arguing against securing the borders, but you do know that alot of illegal immigrants are those who come in on a vacation pass, and well never leave? So how are we going to stop those people when we let them in?
-The drain on the economy they place (yeah sure they do provide cheap labor, but the benefits they receive outweigh what they contribute)
Don't forget to even be able to work they still need a Social Security # for this to happen. And with social security, taxes are taken out in advance and therefore they still pay taxes, but will never be able to reap the benefits.
Even still with a generous amount census of illegals (say 12 million) they are still only at 4% and thats ALL illegal immigrants.
-It's about time we define the modern America -- and make English the official language! I want to swear but it wouldn't help.
Please do so. To me America is a nation of immigrants collectively trying to bring the whole up together because their former countries limited them.
And do not think, not even for a second you are better than me or my kin because you were born here as opposed to us.
If a nation is created by immigrants, and most of its traditions and practices are not inherently from the people, then it can't be a static culture, and therefore it must be fluid and therefore it changes over time.


Someone asked for my solution and I'm not really sure where I stand but yes I think a partial amnesty would work for several reasons:
1. Forces immigrants to become legal. In turn this will:
A) Make them pay taxes
B) Allow us to decide who gets to stay or go when they come to us
C) Allow them to get paid more and therefore will not have to use government welfare because they will now earn a living wage.
2. It is already known that Immigration increase = increase in GDP.
For instance in a case study of European countries done across the board, each country for every 1% of immigrants that came to the country, there was an increase of 1.25% to 1.5% increase in GDP. Of course correlation is not causation. But the reason this happens is that because there are more people, more good are demanded and therefore the economy (and job market) increases. Not only that these immigrants fill the "3-D" jobs (dirty, dangerous, and dumb) which native workers have been conditioned not to accept. In Canada, there is a worry in the skilled construction industry due to a majority of its native labor force being in their 40's and 50's. In Denmark there is similar concern with brick layers. (Majority of this taken from: Stalker, Peter The No-Nonsense Guide To International Migration and despite the cheesey name is a very interesting read.)

[raykessler]

Colonizing is SUCH the wrong word for it. Migrating, yes. The are moving from one area of the world (Mexico) to the U.S. for one reason alone: Money. Thats it. They are not trying to control the U.S. politically (they can't, no right to vote), They can't take us over culturally (we are a nation of other cultures). The absolute worst they could do is have what happens in Quebec happen in South-Western states, which is have all signs in Spanish and English. OH GOD THE HORROR!


This generation of illegal immagrents many not have any influence over our polotics, but the next generation (their offspring) will. As long as someone is bron in our country they are a citizen, weather or not their parents are. Assuming every illegal immagrent has 2 children id say thats a pretty big impact on our polotics.

[BTlaxripper]

It is colonizing when they come in and fly the Mexican flag over schools and government buildings.

[enjoi]

This generation of illegal immagrents many not have any influence over our polotics, but the next generation (their offspring) will. As long as someone is bron in our country they are a citizen, weather or not their parents are. Assuming every illegal immagrent has 2 children id say thats a pretty big impact on our polotics.
yes, but by then they have been integrated into our society, and this is a very common occurence in all ethnicities who integrate. Children of immigrants which when growing up due to social pressures begin to integrate themselves.
I know and can't name a single 2nd or third generation child who can't speak english.

Of course the parents will NEVER speak english without an accent, but that doesn't matter because their children are the only ones who need to know how to speak the majority language (which could EASILY be guarenteed if we make the official language english and go about our business but no! That would be WAY too easy and politicians [on both sides] refuse to do that.)
It is colonizing when they come in and fly the Mexican flag over schools and government buildings.
No thats, illegal, and shouldn't happen in the first place.

[The Chariot]

National language = English.
Will never come to pass. Apparently thats too Un-PC for the majority of democrats. You're in the minority.
Yes because thats a grand total of them! I would love to have the statistic on it and I bet its less than 1% of illegal immigrants that even do that.
Ever heard of MS 13? And plus it only takes a tiny piece of the 12 million to cause a whole LOT of trouble.

[BTlaxripper]

No thats, illegal, and shouldn't happen in the first place.

Agreed

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/8/20/103225.shtml

Andrew Fox, who teaches English to Spanish-speaking pupils, said he wanted his Latino pupils to feel more welcome.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/images/flag.jpg
http://www.truthorfiction.com/images/montebellb.jpg
http://www.truthorfiction.com/images/montebello.jpg
They're raising it btw, not taking it down -- the photos are anachronistic.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/m/montebello-flag.htm

These students should be sent straight to Mexico. Granted they don't represent all of illegal immigrants' sentiments, many would rather fly the Mexican flag -- and therefore do not belong here.

edit: seriously, the more i look at these pictures the more i wish i could shoot people through my computer screen

[jory]

It is colonizing when they come in and fly the Mexican flag over schools and government buildings.

thats what happens in texas
their in our country and expect to dangle a mexican flag everywhere like they still live in mexico

[ColtsLax]

the plan is good, its about time ANYBODY addressed this with a serious plan.

Immigrants do not pay taxes, DTL42, they dont get a regular paycheck where SS, union, and the like are taken out. They are paid "under the table" in cash, which they keep in their matress.

Many Illegals have fake SS# that they use to vote, get jobs, and things of that nature.

Enjoi, while that little thing about immigration being good, its kind of misleading. Europe is on a downward slide, their population is growing slowly, it hink francr averages less then 1 child per household.

[enjoi]

Agreed

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/8/20/103225.shtml

Thats inane. I studied German and we had the German, Spanish and French flag all in one line in our classroom.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/m/montebello-flag.htm

These students should be sent straight to Mexico. Granted they don't represent all of illegal immigrants' sentiments, many would rather fly the Mexican flag -- and therefore do not belong here.
From your article:
"The pictures are true. They were taken at Montebello high school on Monday, March 27, 2006. The students were part of a walkout aimed at influencing Congress, which was debating immigration policy and the potential of cracking down on illegal immigrants in the country. Although the flag-raising took place at Montebello high school, officials of the Montebello Unified School District were quick to point out that the protesters were not students from Montebello high school. Assistent Superintendent Robert Henke said the high school was under a lockdown and all the students were in their classrooms. He said that the 800 to 1000 students were from neighboring school districts such as the El Rancho Unified School District and the Whittier Union High School District. They marched to Montebello high school, lowered the flags, replaced the school flag with a Mexican flag, flew the U.S. flag upside down, and stole the California flag that had been on the pole."
This is just another reason why people under 18 are not allowed to protest (I'm even wondering if thats true to be honest), because under 18 you are stupid stupid stupid and do stupid stupid things.
the plan is good, its about time ANYBODY addressed this with a serious plan.

Immigrants do not pay taxes, DTL42, they dont get a regular paycheck where SS, union, and the like are taken out. They are paid "under the table" in cash, which they keep in their matress.

Many Illegals have fake SS# that they use to vote, get jobs, and things of that nature.
CONTRADICTION!
If they have a fake social, then they must have taxes paid for them by the employer. Because the IRS, they do not joke around with taxes.
Ergo; illegal immigrants (whether they want to or not) pay taxes so the employers don't get canned. They pay the same amount in taxes as they would normal workers but do not have to actually pay them the amount they "earned".
I also really want to see the welfare rates on illegal immigrants, it doesn't make any sense that they would be able to recieve welfare especially if they are using an illegal social security number.
Enjoi, while that little thing about immigration being good, its kind of misleading. Europe is on a downward slide, their population is growing slowly, it hink francr averages less then 1 child per household.
Yes, but someone has to fill the labor gap... and thats why immigration is a source of economic growth. It fills the "3-D" jobs and other jobs native workers are unwilling or unable to fill.

[The Chariot]

Many Illegals have fake SS# that they use to vote, get jobs, and things of that nature.
My mom heads up a OB/GYN clinic and says they will stack like 12 women to a single SS#. Shes seen it happen. Bankrupting healthcare.

[fossil8412]

24 is over, so I'm back and not even going to try and catch up. Regardless of the issue however, I think we should have weekly debates or something on big issues, or vote an issue of the week and then debate it. This is really intellectually stimulating, as both leftist and rightist sides have brought interesting and valid points to the situation at hand. Round of applause for keeping this as civilized as it has been.

[jory]

Oh no, enjoi knows what hes talking about... His general point is bush is an idiot.... And he has plenty of facts to back it up. Haha i can pretty much post in these threads until he gets here, than he addresses my views on it all and im forced to run back to the equipment forum.

enjoi walks in with darth vador music

[twin58]

... It is harder for me to get a job since I won't work for less than minimum wage.

... [W]e the people need to take issues into our own hands. Donate a couple extra dollars to the Operation Minuteman. Refuse to deal with people who won't speak english. Take lower paying jobs.

The ones you won't take?

[MainLax28]

The ones you won't take?
No, actually I will take lower paying jobs, but not below minimum wage unless it is under the table like what they are doing. I actually tried to get several minimum wage jobs but the people never called me back with the information on them.

[twin58]

No, actually I will take lower paying jobs, but not below minimum wage unless it is under the table like what they are doing.

If you do that, you won't be paying income taxes.

[lax@wwu21]

Yes because thats a grand total of them! I would love to have the statistic on it and I bet its less than 1% of illegal immigrants that even do that.



http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm

What exactly is this article saying? It costs a lot to keep them here, and that is only one state! It is high time that we recognized the problems economically, socially and culturally that are being caused by this non-strict regulating of illegal aliens. Why do they think that they can just cut to the front of the immigrant line and cut those who are trying to get citizenship legally? They rarely contribute because most of them refuse to speak english and the criminal element it adds is also of worthy note.

This issue is far from being over and from where I'm standing, the only logical thing to do is send them back to their home countries, be it China, Mexico, Cuba, Viet Nam, or whatever country they are from until they go through the proper channels.

I really like the fact that National Guard troops are being deployed here in our nation instead of overseas. They should be here instead of "over there". It was a bold move, but someone had to do it.

[Hookem]

Short Summary:
With poverty comes crime.


I don't want anyone responding to this unless it's construction, no flaming or b$$$$$g.

[lax@wwu21]

Just in case you didn't know, illegal immigrants can't vote. Because they are illegal and don't have the rights that Americans do. Because they are illegal.

But guess what...they are demanding them because they have been working here for so long.

Check out more facts:

http://www.calborderpolice.com/

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/19_56_5812_5_04.txt

Quotes from that article:

A similar study conducted by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, D.C., and released in August, said that illegal immigrants cost the federal government $10 billion more than they pay in taxes.

The federal government pays about $2.2 billion in medical treatment for uninsured immigrants, according to the report. It pays $1.9 billion in food assistance programs, such as food stamps and school lunches, for low-income families. And it pays $1.4 billion in aid to schools that educate illegal immigrant children.

[enjoi]

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm

What exactly is this article saying? It costs a lot to keep them here, and that is only one state! It is high time that we recognized the problems economically, socially and culturally that are being caused by this non-strict regulating of illegal aliens. Why do they think that they can just cut to the front of the immigrant line and cut those who are trying to get citizenship legally? They rarely contribute because most of them refuse to speak english and the criminal element it adds is also of worthy note.
1. It does not cost a lot to keep "them" here. In fact the average illegal immigrant will pay 5 to 10 times what they take from the government in taxes. (Simon, J. The Economic Consequences of Migration)

2. Not to mention: "Some will have already acquired falsfied documents such as... Social Security cards... in order to get work. So they might be able to get forged documents for claiming welfare. But there is no evidence this is actually happening. Many researchers believe that illegal immigrants are so preoccupied with concealing their existence and whereabouts from the authorities that this is the last thing on their mind."
I can even personally vouch for this as I have heard many stories of Polish immigrants (who were once illegal) that nearly starved to death because they could not go to the government for help. Starving. And these were not some crazies or murders, they were/are good hard working people trying to better themselves and all you selfish Americans sit there is whine and complain "wah wah wah".

3. The source used is flawed and obviously biased, and is also as biased as the "Centers for Immigration Studies".
"The Federation for American Immigration Reform is a nonprofit, public-interest, membership organization advocating immigration policy reforms that would tighten border security and prevent illegal immigration, while reducing legal immigration levels from about 1.1 million persons per year to 300,000 per year."
More like the Federation for American Immigration Rascism. Lets face it is. Reducing immigration is an economically stupid idea. If you get 1.25% increase in GDP, for every 1% increase in immigration flow then the economy gets larger. Doesn't it make sense then that a country would want more immigrants to boost its GDP thereby stimulating economic growth.

This issue is far from being over and from where I'm standing, the only logical thing to do is send them back to their home countries, be it China, Mexico, Cuba, Viet Nam, or whatever country they are from until they go through the proper channels.
Yes, lets lose almost 85% of all agricultural workers. Yes lose millions oflabor that our native population is unwilling to take because they are dirty, dangerous and dumb, or "don't pay enough".
Even the Republicans know that is not the answer. Thank god you aren't in any way shape or form a policy maker cause sending ALL illegal immigrants back home would quickly kill the economy.
I really like the fact that National Guard troops are being deployed here in our nation instead of overseas. They should be here instead of "over there". It was a bold move, but someone had to do it.
National Guard troops are supposed to be "here" not "over there".


The immigration issue is not economic, its purely "American culture" (and boy do I use culture in that sense loosely) and [i]politics.
If you sincerely believe that in America having immigrants come in a problem, please send Lady Liberty back to France because that poem on her tablet does NOT reflect American values whatsoever.
And just so you remember:
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
THAT is the America my family came to. The land of golden oppourtunity and freedom. All we have ever recieved from this country is rascism (AND WE ARE WHITE!), bigoted fools and bunch of mental midgets who don't even have the brain power to realize that their ancestors were formally the unwanted immigrants and dirty brutes from across the ocean rejected by "civilization". But its so convient to forget isn't it.

Any of you who are white who oppose immigration in ANY form you are a foolish HYPOCRITE. You ravaged the Native American population, destroyed their culture in a failed attempt at "civilization". You enslaved generations of Africans forcing them to work on your plantations, and when it came time for their payment? Ah ah ah! Jim Crowe laws! Absolutely disgusting.

edit - I should note that my hatred of bigots such as the above CIS.org and other "foundations" are the same clown sacks who probably made my life a living hell in grade school because I wasn't "American" enough. Not a single person stood up for my right to be counted as a member among the culture, even though I was born here. Not a single adult defended me or punished their children for their disgusting bigotry. And you will never understand the feeling that I feel and will feel for the rest of my life. To be made out to be a lesser human being not on my contributions to society but by my language and the speed of my integration.

[BTlaxripper]

Whoo boy that is one long post.

Um. . . I skimmed it needless to say, so I'll just throw in a general opinion.

Nobody is opting to close the borders, because immigration is an integral part of the US, it just needs to be regulated and controlled so it is fair and safe.

And enjoi, I don't want to demean from your personal struggles and your family's -- but you have received more than just racism from the US. I know you have a job creating software, your parents obviously own enough to buy you a computer, etc. -- that is opportunity my friend, the chance for a better life opportunity that awaits all LEGAL immigrants.

My great grandparents were straight off the boat from Poland, lived in NYC, learned English, and worked and sacrificed for a better life for them and their family. Granted my great grandfather left NYC and changed his last name because people thought he was jewish (Bartoszcevitz --> Bartow) and were prejudiced against him -- it isn't prejudiced to not like those who come here and are a parasite to the country you love. My great grandparents didn't cross the border under the cover of night, and leech of a charitable government they took advantage of so they could survive and have the same living conditions they did in their former country, but without having to work -- it doesn't work like that.

Education and a Puritain work ethic are the keys to the American dream. . . not laziness and free money from the government.

[ohlax51]

thats what happens in texas
their in our country and expect to dangle a mexican flag everywhere like they still live in mexico

No colonising is invading a place, exploiting their resources, and abusing there people. Seems kind of familar doesnt it........

[enjoi]

Whoo boy that is one long post.

Um. . . I skimmed it needless to say, so I'll just throw in a general opinion.

Nobody is opting to close the borders, because immigration is an integral part of the US, it just needs to be regulated and controlled so it is fair and safe.

And enjoi, I don't want to demean from your personal struggles and your family's -- but you have received more than just racism from the US. I know you have a job creating software, your parents obviously own enough to buy you a computer, etc. -- that is opportunity my friend, the chance for a better life opportunity that awaits all LEGAL immigrants.
Yes and we did that in spite of the native population, insults constantly thrown our way and harassed. Its opportunity seemingly if you persevere through the native population calling you stupid and ignorant (exposing their own hypocrisy).
And while you might be tolerant or whatever, the people you allied yourself with (CIS, FAIR (:whyme:), etc.) Don't seem to like anyone non-american. Those are not good bedfellows, might as well sign up with the KKK while you're at it.
Yes I agree, borders DO need to be safer, but the groups rallying for it are not being reasonable, they are even following basic economics. Not to mention their "research" has so much bias thrown into to it.
You yourself are part of the problem stating that you want a static "American Culture". That is the problem, non-acceptance of immigrants ideas from another immigrant. Hypocrisy in its finest form. Makes me f-ing sick.
My great grandparents were straight off the boat from Poland, lived in NYC, learned English, and worked and sacrificed for a better life for them and their family. Granted my great grandfather left NYC and changed his last name because people thought he was jewish (Bartoszcevitz --> Bartow) and were prejudiced against him -- it isn't prejudiced to not like those who come here and are a parasite to the country you love. My great grandparents didn't cross the border under the cover of night, and leech of a charitable government they took advantage of so they could survive and have the same living conditions they did in their former country, but without having to work -- it doesn't work like that.
It is prejudiced. You have NO idea how the new people, people you've never met or gotten to know.
Not to mention like I previousley posted, EVEN IF they were leeching off the government, there is no evidence to support that they even do. Not to mention the fact if they do they are anyways by working illegaly putting 5 to 10 times more into taxes than what they take out.
Put nope i guess if you say enough times it must be true.
Education and a Puritain work ethic are the keys to the American dream. . . not laziness and free money from the government.
Except it doesn't work like that in reality and it never will because the stuff people actually go through is much worse and much harder to overcome than just hardwork and Education.



"When they came for the first man, I did
nothing. When they came for the second man, I did nothing. When they
came for the third man, I did nothing. Finally, when they came for me,
there was no one to help me..."
Of course, this is in reference to Nazis, but its still applicable in this situation. Defending those who can't defend themselves is an honorable tradition and is exlempified by World War II vets. Apparently this did not pass onto further generations.

[MainLax28]

If you do that, you won't be paying income taxes.
yes, which is the only reason why I would take a job below minimum wage. Besides they don't pay takes, so why should I?

[BTlaxripper]

Static American culture? I never said that.

I said we need to define the modern America.

Accepting immigrants but centered around the English language.

Yeah you can be proud of your heritage, but when you move to America, that is what it becomes. . . heritage, not allegiance.

[enjoi]

yes, which is the only reason why I would take a job below minimum wage. Besides they don't pay takes, so why should I?
Wow! Read the thread before you post!
1. It does not cost a lot to keep "them" here. In fact the average illegal immigrant will pay 5 to 10 times what they take from the government in taxes. (Simon, J. The Economic Consequences of Migration)

2. Not to mention: "Some will have already acquired falsfied documents such as... Social Security cards... in order to get work. So they might be able to get forged documents for claiming welfare. But there is no evidence this is actually happening. Many researchers believe that illegal immigrants are so preoccupied with concealing their existence and whereabouts from the authorities that this is the last thing on their mind."
I can even personally vouch for this as I have heard many stories of Polish immigrants (who were once illegal) that nearly starved to death because they could not go to the government for help. [i]Starving. And these were not some crazies or murders, they were/are good hard working people trying to better themselves and all you selfish Americans sit there is whine and complain "wah wah wah".

3. The source used is flawed and obviously biased, and is also as biased as the "Centers for Immigration Studies".
"The Federation for American Immigration Reform is a nonprofit, public-interest, membership organization advocating immigration policy reforms that would tighten border security and prevent illegal immigration, while reducing legal immigration levels from about 1.1 million persons per year to 300,000 per year."
More like the Federation for American Immigration Rascism. Lets face it is. Reducing immigration is an economically stupid idea. If you get 1.25% increase in GDP, for every 1% increase in immigration flow then the economy gets larger. Doesn't it make sense then that a country would want more immigrants to boost its GDP thereby stimulating economic growth.
Or do you just try to ignore the steel toed boot of truth when it is kindly knocking on your door? If I'm wrong, please enlighten me. I would love to see non-biased reasearch.
Static American culture? I never said that.

I said we need to define the modern America.
If ours is a country of the sum of the whole how can we define our culture if the culture is always changing and most of its been taken/"adopoted" as our own.
Accepting immigrants but centered around the English language.

Yeah you can be proud of your heritage, but when you move to America, that is what it becomes. . . heritage, not allegiance.
Yes and the people you allied yourself with are not even in accordance with what you supposedly believe in. It seems like an alliance of convience (i.e. "the enemy of my enemy is my friend") and makes me wonder if these people think they have power what will they do next.
Thats what makes me so angry, how any level headed person such as yourself can seriousley even legitimize for one second to be counted among the likes of CIS/FAIR/Minutemen.

[danjor]

WTF? How are the kids even going to school? How are these folks even working? Don't you have to have a soc etc? To enroll a child in school you must have a legit addy, birth cert. and soc. card. To legally work you have to have all of the above as well. So how the heck can they fight for a legal right to vote? Come now. I am all for equal opportunity for people that came here legally and for those that were literally dragged here against their will, but I do not support programs that assist people who are here illegally or who are taking part in illegal activities. If you are here due to trying to escape from famine or war crimes, then you have my support. If you are here because you want to make money under the table so that you can send it back home so your wives can live like queens, well then I can't ethically support that. I know several Jamaicans and men from China and India who take part in this very practice and it gets my goat every time (legal and illegal) they speak of it with pride and arrogance. If you just took the time to chat with those that have come to only "work" here you will find that many of them don't even like America or Americans. They want the opportunity and the opportunity only. The trickle down theory has trickled to the ends of the earth. There isn't much incentive for the 4th generation Quaker farmer, the 3rd generation coal miner, or the man who is still working off of his 30 acres and a mule.

On a more personal note, I see many Africans that come here because they have chosen to come here. Their views, work ethic, and optimistic attitudes are quite different from the generations that have evolved from american slavery.
So I guess it is all about how you view opportunity and if you grab it by the teets and milk it for all its worth (if indeed you are given a fair chance at the same opportunities).

Call me left, call me right, call me black, call me white... America is a pot that has melted and boiled over. Now who is going to clean it up without getting burned?

[BTlaxripper]

Wow! Read the thread before you post!

Or do you just try to ignore the steel toed boot of truth when it is kindly knocking on your door? If I'm wrong, please enlighten me. I would love to see non-biased reasearch.

If ours is a country of the sum of the whole how can we define our culture if the culture is always changing and most of its been taken/"adopoted" as our own.

Yes and the people you allied yourself with are not even in accordance with what you supposedly believe in. It seems like an alliance of convience (i.e. "the enemy of my enemy is my friend") and makes me wonder if these people think they have power what will they do next.
Thats what makes me so angry, how any level headed person such as yourself can seriousley even legitimize for one second to be counted among the likes of CIS/FAIR/Minutemen.

While it is obvious we come from totally different experiences and backgrounds. . . what is wrong with allying with the 'Minutemen'?

The government became lakadasical on protecting the boreders, so they decided they will. They aren't shooting anybody, or arresting anybody, because they know they don't have the authority to. . . they see a caravan of potential illegal immigrants trying to cross the border, and call the border patrol. What's wrong with that?

[Hookem]

Yes, lets lose almost 85% of all agricultural workers. Yes lose millions oflabor that our native population is unwilling to take because they are dirty, dangerous and dumb, or "don't pay enough".
Even the Republicans know that is not the answer. Thank god you aren't in any way shape or form a policy maker cause sending ALL illegal immigrants back home would quickly kill the economy.
So basically you're saying we are using them as slaves, which is your point in the above paragraph. Talk about contridiction!

[danjor]

No colonising is invading a place, exploiting their resources, and abusing there people. Seems kind of familar doesnt it........

Yes, very familiar. Buttons are really being pushed in here.

[enjoi]

While it is obvious we come from totally different experiences and backgrounds. . . what is wrong with allying with the 'Minutemen'?
They are rascists/bigots.
AMERICA FOR AMERIKKKANS AM I RITE GUYZ.
The government became lakadasical on protecting the boreders, so they decided they will. They aren't shooting anybody, or arresting anybody, because they know they don't have the authority to. . . they see a caravan of potential illegal immigrants trying to cross the border, and call the border patrol. What's wrong with that?
Nothing, but I don't like them anyways. Not as a political organization at least.
Like I said before, they are hypocrites and spread false information (like the welfare one) to persuade people of their side.
WTF? How are the kids even going to school? How are these folks even working? Don't you have to have a soc etc? To enroll a child in school you must have a legit addy, birth cert. and soc. card. To legally work you have to have all of the above as well. So how they heck can they fight for a legal right to vote?
Yup you can not read. IT DOESN'T MATTER. They give back 5 to 10 times what they take out.
I literally laid it out for I bolded and italicized and even gave sources! Theres not much more formatting I can do to prove to you how wrong you are. I even invited you to share with me you non-biased sources!
Come now. I am all for equal opportunity for people that came here legally and for those that were literally dragged here against their will, but I do not support programs that assist people who are here illegally or who are taking part in illegal activities. If you are here due to trying to escape from famine or war crimes, then you have my support. If you are here because you want to make a few bucks so that you can send money back home so your wives can live like queens, then there isn't much room for you.
QUEENS? HA! Yes living in a third world country is living like royalty. They are relatively living like queens. They are doing better than before yes and its much better and that is still not saying much. As long as the husband makes money, adds to the local economy (he has to buy food correct?) and pays his taxes whats your problem? I also don't recall when we ever had a law saying all money made in the United States must be spent in the United States.
I know several Jamaicans and men from China and India who take part in this very practice and it gets my goat every time (legal and illegal) they speak of it with pride and arrogance. If you just took the time to chat with those that have come to only "work" here you will find that many of them don't even like America or Americans. They want the opportunity and the opportunity only. The trickle down theory has trickled to the ends of the earth. There isn't much incentive for the 4th generation Quaker farmer, the 3rd generation coal miner, or the man who is still working off of his 30 acres and a mule.
So what? They still boost our economy, and contribute to it. I could give a dang whether they like us or not. Would it personally bother me? Sure, its an utter sign of disrespect. But economically, as long as their company or they pay taxes (which one or the other HAS to do) then its fine by me.
Call me left, call me right, call me black, call me white... America is a pot that has melted and boiled over. Now who is going to clean it up without getting burned?
So you're saying you don't like other races/ethnicities, and As long as the water in the pot is white, and protestant its okay right. Yeah :whyme: I know people like you.
So basically you're saying we are using them as slaves, which is your point in the above paragraph. Talk about contridiction!
Ho ho! Here comes Hookem with another HARD HITTING OBSERVATION. Show me where I say "we use them as slaves" aside from you putting words in my mouth. They are cheap labor and have every right to become citizens (except for felons). They came to the U.S. [i]willingly[/] and they can leave of their own free will as well, and whether or not they will take a job that is under minimum wage is up to them. Corporations should not even be offering under minimum wage but yeah, the government won't do that.

[Hookem]

Ho ho! Here comes Hookem with another HARD HITTING OBSERVATION. Show me where I say "we use them as slaves" aside from you putting words in my mouth. They are cheap labor and have every right to become citizens (except for felons). They came to the U.S. [i]willingly[/] and they can leave of their own free will as well, and whether or not they will take a job that is under minimum wage is up to them. Corporations should not even be offering under minimum wage but yeah, the government won't do that.


"Yes lose millions oflabor that our native population is unwilling to take because they are dirty, dangerous and dumb, or "don't pay enough"."

Okay, let's keep them here so our economy doesn't F up because they have s%%t jobs.

[enjoi]

"Yes lose millions oflabor that our native population is unwilling to take because they are dirty, dangerous and dumb, or "don't pay enough"."

Okay, let's keep them here so our economy doesn't F up because they have s%%t jobs.
Would you like to suggest who would do the jobs if our native population isn't willing to take them for various reasons such as: cultural, monetary or pride.

Immigrants (legal or illegal) almost always get the "3-D" jobs because the native population will not do it (for whatever reason). If our native labor is highly educated (like ours is), Unskilled work should belong to those that are... unskilled! Therefore the unskilled will do the menial jobs that the native population won't like production. Someone has to do the dirty job and I'm sure if you're an MIT grad you will not be pushing the button at a Toyota factory. But if there is no/not enough unskilled labor, you don't take the MIT grad and tell him to push the button you take whoever walks fresh off the boat/raft/bus/tunnel. The answer is immigrants because they are willing to do the jobs others won't at a lower cost providing the native population with lower costing goods. Allocative efficency! I LOVE IT!

So where do I say "slaves"? Where do I mention in anyway shape of form Hookem that they are forced to be in America?

[Hookem]

Would you like to suggest who would do the jobs if our native population isn't willing to take them for various reasons such as: cultural, monetary or pride.

Immigrants (legal or illegal) almost always get the "3-D" jobs because the native population will not do it (for whatever reason). If our native labor is highly educated (like ours is), Unskilled work should belong to those that are... unskilled! Therefore the unskilled will do the menial jobs that the native population won't like production. Someone has to do the dirty job and I'm sure if you're an MIT grad you will not be pushing the button at a Toyota factory. But if there is no/not enough unskilled labor, you don't take the MIT grad and tell him to push the button you take whoever walks fresh off the boat/raft/bus/tunnel. The answer is immigrants because they are willing to do the jobs others won't at a lower cost providing the native population with lower costing goods. Allocative efficency! I LOVE IT!

So where do I say "slaves"? Where do I mention in anyway shape of form Hookem that they are forced to be in America?
Well of course, we'd all get what Democrats want, HIGHER MINIMUM WAGE if these aliens were deported. Of course, that would make the US a better place; less b%%%%%%g.

You never mention slaves, but the context of it is that you are suggesting we keep them here just to do the crappy jobs.

[enjoi]

Well of course, we'd all get what Democrats want, HIGHER MINIMUM WAGE if these aliens were deported. Of course, that would make the US a better place; less b%%%%%%g.
No we wouldn't! Companies would still offer the same job at the same price, not to mention they could only increase wages so much before it becomes an unviable way of hiring workers, even then it would only be temporary as more legal immigrants will try and take those jobs anyway taking up the empty positions. As more people came into the field the price of employment would drop, and then it would be back to normal minimum wage, all without the government lifting a finger.
You never mention slaves, but the context of it is that you are suggesting we keep them here just to do the crappy jobs.So basically you're saying we are using them as slaves, which is your point in the above paragraph. Talk about contridiction!
We keep them because our economy will suffer thats the point I was making, but thats hardly a connection to "slave labor". :whyme:
I never said anything about forcibily keeping anyone here. Illegals (as far as I know) are welcome to go back to their country of origin.
You're just trying to put words in my mouth and "catch" me in a quagmire. Its cute, but it won't work.

[jory]

Static American culture? I never said that.

I said we need to define the modern America.

Accepting immigrants but centered around the English language.

Yeah you can be proud of your heritage, but when you move to America, that is what it becomes. . . heritage, not allegiance.

that is all i want from the illegal and legal immigrants who come here
im tired of walmart, target, etc. having the spanish word the same size as the english one, the mall is the only place that is free from this. im sick of the thought of the next generation having to speak spanish as a first language. sure i can speak some spanish but not fluently. " a young mind is like a spongue, while an older one is as solid as a brick". point is: just learn english

[enjoi]

that is all i want from the illegal and legal immigrants who come here
i tired of walmart, target, etc. having the spanish word the same size as the english one, the mall is the only place that is free from this. im sick of the thought of the next generation having to speak spanish as a first language. sure i can speak some spanish but not fluently. " a young mind is like a spongue, while an older one is as solid as a brick". point is: just learn english
Yes a young mind and children who have been here longer than 4 years should know english rather well.

The older ones are rather hopeless though. Much to my annoyance, but it can't be helped.

[H-townlaxer]

Thank God.

Everything I wanted to hear.

Of course we can't deport 12 million poeple, so there needs to be a worker program. And 6,000 more border agents. . . while I would like to atleast have the National Guard there, that's atleast a step in the right direction.

I hope you all watched this, because Illegal Immigration is probably the defining issue of our generation, and this was a good presidential address, reminding me personally of what America is all about.

i enjoyd it very much

[Hookem]

No we wouldn't! Companies would still offer the same job at the same price, not to mention they could only increase wages so much before it becomes an unviable way of hiring workers, even then it would only be temporary as more legal immigrants will try and take those jobs anyway taking up the empty positions. As more people came into the field the price of employment would drop, and then it would be back to normal minimum wage, all without the government lifting a finger.
Okay, a contridiction ONCE again.

Why would the companies keep a minimum wage so low if no one would work it?

Their business would eventually not get output, which is turn would bankrupt them and take them out of business.

If no one is going to work with them; they have to raise the pay.

[enjoi]

Okay, a contridiction ONCE again.No we wouldn't! Companies would still offer the same job at the same price, not to mention they could only increase wages so much before it becomes an unviable way of hiring workers, even then it would only be temporary as more legal immigrants will try and take those jobs anyway taking up the empty positions. As more people came into the field the price of employment would drop, and then it would be back to normal minimum wage, all without the government lifting a finger.
The federal minimum wage would not increase; as demand for labor would increase wages and then would fall back down.
Federally mandated increased minimum wage would be disastorous.
And I said that all in the quote.

Now you're just shooting blindly. Picking one part of a sentance and trying to exploit one part of one sentance. Do yourself a favor and start READING what I wrote so I can stop embarassing you.

[ColtsLax]

2. Not to mention: "Some [Illegal immigrants] will have already acquired falsfied documents such as... Social Security cards... in order to get work. So they might be able to get forged documents for claiming welfare. [b]But there is no evidence this is actually happening.

come to my town, one of the largest illegal immigrant destinations in the northeast. You show me three mexicans, and i show you three identical SS cards.

THAT is the America my family came to. The land of golden oppourtunity and freedom. All we have ever recieved from this country is rascism (AND WE ARE WHITE!), bigoted fools and bunch of mental midgets who don't even have the brain power to realize that their ancestors were formally the unwanted immigrants and dirty brutes from across the ocean rejected by "civilization". But its so convient to forget isn't it.

They were all here legally. When you pass through ellis island, that makes you a legal resident.

Any of you who are white who oppose immigration in ANY form you are a foolish HYPOCRITE. You ravaged the Native American population, destroyed their culture in a failed attempt at "civilization". You enslaved generations of Africans forcing them to work on your plantations, and when it came time for their payment? Ah ah ah! Jim Crowe laws! Absolutely disgusting.People are not going to like this, but throughout history, when one group of people conquer another, the losing side gets crushed(see Rome) thats what happened to the NA's, its been the same through history.

[marflax33]

Short Summary:
With poverty comes crime..

Wasnt the french riots caused by the french Government not having enough money, or was that just the french being french?

[BTlaxripper]

Wasnt the french riots caused by the french Government not having enough money, or was that just the french being french?

Depends on which French Riots we are talking about here.

I believe the riots you are thinking of are Marie Antoinette days, where basically the French people were starving and they had to be humiliated by seeing the royal family parade around with diamonds around their necks and food to waste. Which would make anybody riot.

[ColtsLax]

Wasnt the french riots caused by the french Government not having enough money, or was that just the french being french?
combination of both. The riots were over a new bill that made it easier to fire a worker. France, in their infinte wisdom, is a socialist economy. when you get a job, you have it for life. it is virtually impossible to fire a worker. The companies have been presuring the state to make it easier to fire people, and they got pissed, because this meant less job security.


Its also the French just being french. FROMAGE!!!

[enjoi]

come to my town, one of the largest illegal immigrant destinations in the northeast. You show me three mexicans, and i show you three identical SS cards.
Whats your point?They were all here legally. When you pass through ellis island, that makes you a legal resident.
And so did my dad and mom, whats your point? Still treated like second class citizens.
Theres no excuse for the arrogant way Americans act twoard other immigrants. None at all.
People are not going to like this, but throughout history, when one group of people conquer another, the losing side gets crushed(see Rome) thats what happened to the NA's, its been the same through history.
Yeah, but it doesn't mean its okay.
combination of both. The riots were over a new bill that made it easier to fire a worker. France, in their infinte wisdom, is a socialist economy. when you get a job, you have it for life. it is virtually impossible to fire a worker. The companies have been presuring the state to make it easier to fire people, and they got pissed, because this meant less job security.
Its also the French just being french. FROMAGE!!!
No it was French youth being stupid. From what I read it only applied to a certain age group.

[ColtsLax]

Whats your point? while there may be no DOCUMENTED evidence of illegals using false SS cards, the problem does exist.

And so did my dad and mom, whats your point? Still treated like second class citizens.
Theres no excuse for the arrogant way Americans act twoard other immigrants. None at all.My point is, stop using our ancestors to defend immigration. These people are coming here illegally, i.e. they broke the law to get here. Our ancestors did not, they are unrealted.

Yeah, but it doesn't mean its okay.Right, but stop bringing it up, its a fact of history that the conquered people get oppressed, yeah, we are sorry, but do i owe you a bunch of money because a bunch of white guys killed you great great grandfather, No.

[enjoi]

while there may be no DOCUMENTED evidence of illegals using false SS cards, the problem does exist.
He was talking about using Social Security cards used in conjunction with welfare.
Heres the main part:"Not to mention: "Some [Illegal immigrants] will have already acquired falsfied documents such as... Social Security cards... in order to get work. So they might be able to get forged documents for claiming welfare. But there is no evidence this is actually happening. Many researchers believe that illegal immigrants are so preoccupied with concealing their existence and whereabouts from the authorities that this is the last thing on their mind."
My point is, stop using our ancestors to defend immigration. These people are coming here illegally, i.e. they broke the law to get here. Our ancestors did not, they are unrealted. Oh its not my main arguement by any means. I prefer using stuff like the above and the fact that immigration only helps the economy. Or how immigrants don't really use welfare. Dispeling myths is much more fun than providing a case. And Easier!
I need more books though.
Right, but stop bringing it up, its a fact of history that the conquered people get oppressed, yeah, we are sorry, but do i owe you a bunch of money because a bunch of white guys killed you great great grandfather, No.You might. ;)

[ColtsLax]

He was talking about using Social Security cards used in conjunction with welfare.
Heres the main part:"Not to mention: "Some [Illegal immigrants] will have already acquired falsfied documents such as... Social Security cards... in order to get work. So they might be able to get forged documents for claiming welfare. But there is no evidence this is actually happening. Many researchers believe that illegal immigrants are so preoccupied with concealing their existence and whereabouts from the authorities that this is the last thing on their mind."

but my point is, it happens.While "researchers" may not think that, i feel that they are wrong. And the biggest reason why is because there is no real threat. INS is a toothless tiger. It sounds bad, but the vast ammount of illegals here make it impossible to just walk around and kick people out. They really don't have to conceal their existance. Unless they draw attention to themseleves(commit a crime) they have very little to worry about.

[lax@wwu21]

Why dont some of you guys who dont like the immigrants do the jobs they get paid under minimum wage for, cause if they were gone then thats who would have to do them, so basically they are the majority of people feeding our manual labor force

The reason that they work for so little is because they are expendible and have flooded the job market, turning what used to be a decent paying manual labor job into a minimum wage paying job. The sudden influx of any commodity, be it minimum wage workers or cars, causes the prices in this case, dollars/hour worked to drop. My Grandfather used to be a farmer until he retired last year and he would pay over $8 an hour.

Point is, the jobs wouldn't be below minum wage if the illegal immigrants did not flood the job market with their cheap wages. This is a proven fact.
they pay taxes through their jobs and they get virtually no health benefits, plus its really hard to become a citizen the attorneys make them pay in cash, so they mostly have to work and live the way they do now

The jobs they work are not those that require a Social Security number! They work primarily on farms as migrant workers moving from California to Washington over the entire season of fruit picking. This is under the table work, same with construction and cleaning.

And the illegals who do work jobs which would require a Social Security # get them, you guessed it, illegally. Not only are they here illegally, but they are breaking laws by commiting fraud. Why do you (who support these illegals) find this to be OKAY???

[enjoi]

The reason that they work for so little is because they are expendible and have flooded the job market, turning what used to be a decent paying manual labor job into a minimum wage paying job. The sudden influx of any commodity, be it minimum wage workers or cars, causes the prices in this case, dollars/hour worked to drop. My Grandfather used to be a farmer until he retired last year and he would pay over $8 an hour.
No... its because the jobs usually pay low anyways, are unskilled and the native population due to culture won't do them because they are usually below them.
Point is, the jobs wouldn't be below minum wage if the illegal immigrants did not flood the job market with their cheap wages. This is a proven fact.
No they would be, or a ton of businesses would be going out of business which would be worse.

Regardless, who cares? Get your head in a book and let the immigrants do the dirty, dangerous, dumb jobs while you sit in an air conditioned room, surfing the internet when you should be working and making a ton of money while doing little to no physical labor. That seems pretty legit to me.

edit - what I'm trying to say is that we should not change our entire economy because "Billy bob" din't wanna do no learnin'. He chose his own path and now he has to compete with those of the same skill set.

[lax@wwu21]

By your statement, I know that you a) are not 18 and b) have never worked a manual labor job, ever.

In his worldly age of barely 15, he is obviously very experienced in these matters. I was beating Mario Bros when he was in diapers... :dummy:

[enjoi]

The jobs they work are not those that require a Social Security number! They work primarily on farms as migrant workers moving from California to Washington over the entire season of fruit picking. This is under the table work, same with construction and cleaning.
Yes and the employer HAS TO PAY TAXES ANYWAYS. So they are still paying taxes by default anyways.
Otherwise the IRS will have a field day with that company.
And the illegals who do work jobs which would require a Social Security # get them, you guessed it, illegally. Not only are they here illegally, but they are breaking laws by commiting fraud. Why do you (who support these illegals) find this to be OKAY???
Okay, I agree they shouldn't be doing that but economically its not hurting us at all, in fact they are providing more than they take. Not only that but they have to prove ot have lived in the country for 5 years before they can even take one welfare penny. They are ADDING to that person's social security.

[xmangs3]

Okay okay, fine -- domestic issue. . . agree?
No, I don't agree. The defining domestic issue of our generation is social security cause we won't be getting any.