Illegal Stick Question

[LaxRef]

The rules state that there is a 1:00 nonreleasable penalty for a deep pocket and 3:00 for a stick that has been altered to gain an advantage. They also specify that the ball has to roll out freely when the stick is rotated forward from 90 degrees. The rule of thumb I've always been given is that if the ball has rolled out by the time the stick is at 45 degrees from vertical then it's fine, and if it's still in the stick when it's horizontal it's definitely illegal. In between is a judgment call.

Anyway, what's unclear is the penalty for a stick that fails this test. I've been told by some people that the 1:00 penalty is for deep pocket only, so if it fails the deep pocket test *and* the ball rolling out test you can give it 1:00, but if it fails only the ball rolling out test it has to be 3:00. Other people say the rules aren't clear so it should only be 1:00.

How do you do it where you are?

[I tried to attach a 32K .jpg showing the stick test I'm referring to, but it doesn't seem to be working.]

[michaeldwilson]

The rules seem to be a little more lenient when the illegal stick involves adjustment for the strings -- deep pocket, ball remains in the stick when turned horizontal -- and allows the stick back in the game after it's fixed.

But if someone actually messes with the manufacture of the stick -- baking the head, bending the handle -- then the person is really trying to cheat.

I would probably go one minute if the stick had both a deep pocket and a stuck ball because they both are a result of the same adjugment of strings.

Mike

[Snake~eyes]

I agree with Michael on this one. If it's strings or pocket that cause the stick to be illegal then it is 1minute, in your scenario if the head is so narrow that its the part that holds the ball then it is 3minutes.

[Petem0ss]

Timely thread, this came up in a game yesterday.

So if the ball holds in a mesh pocket past the 45-degree mark, it could happen as a result of the way the sidewalls are strung, the stringing at the bottom of the bag if the pocket carries low, or a stick that has been pinched at the throat.

So, what's the evidence that the stick has been been altered? Is there a minimum measurement at the throat? Or if the ball is hanging up on the plastic, is that evidence enough?

[LaxRef]

Originally posted by Petem0ss
Timely thread, this came up in a game yesterday.

So if the ball holds in a mesh pocket past the 45-degree mark, it could happen as a result of the way the sidewalls are strung, the stringing at the bottom of the bag if the pocket carries low, or a stick that has been pinched at the throat.

So, what's the evidence that the stick has been been altered? Is there a minimum measurement at the throat? Or if the ball is hanging up on the plastic, is that evidence enough?

The argument I've heard--which I think is reasonable but maybe not what the rulemakers intended--is that since the rules say the 1:00 is for deep pocket only then any other illegal stick must be 3:00. Thus, if the pocket's not deep and the ball hangs up, it would be 3:00, and the stick would be out of the game.

FYI, I usually quote the 45 degree guideline if a coach asks why the stick got flagged, but I pretty much don't flag the stick until we're at about 80 degrees from vertical.

[Snake~eyes]

LaxRef, good argument but I'm still not sure I agree with it.

NFHS 1.8
"Crosses in which the pocket has sagge dto such a depth that it has become difficult for an opponent to dislodge the ball"

I think it can also be argued that the reason the ball doesn't come out is because of a Deep Pocket. Even if it passes the test where you drop the ball in and look for light it is still a deep pocket. What do you think?

[Orange]

Don't mean to bring this back or anything, but I don't want to start a new thread just for it.

Well with my razer and my evo pro, when I hold my stick completely vertical, the ball stays in. LaxRef, were you trying to say that that's legal or illegal? I was a bit confused.

[LaxRef]

Don't mean to bring this back or anything, but I don't want to start a new thread just for it.

Well with my razer and my evo pro, when I hold my stick completely vertical, the ball stays in. LaxRef, were you trying to say that that's legal or illegal? I was a bit confused.

That's okay. But as you roll the stick forward from vertical, the ball had better fall out of it. I'd say if the ball is still in it when the stick is upside down--defying gravity--then it's illegal. If the ball is out by 45 degrees, I'd call it legal. Anywhere in between is a judgment call, since the rules aren't really specific.

[Orange]

Ok good, it comes out before 45 degrees. Thanks.