Alcohol + Lacrosse=fun

[V-cut]

since you all hit on everything else... lets bring in a new subject..

the nationalist socialist party... where do YOU stand?

[Blinkthisone82]

Originally posted by V-cut
since you all hit on everything else... lets bring in a new subject..

the nationalist socialist party... where do YOU stand?

THE WHAT, are u talkin politics

[LatinBabe]

V-cut... figures...

the nationalist socialist party was a right-wing government in Germany from 1930's-1945ish... maybe you heard of them... they are called the NAZIS!

[Blinkthisone82]

oh yea, NICE subject

[anjang86]

start a new topic man..

[laxbabe2121]

let talk about what germans did to the jewish/gay/gypsie people i love anything on that subject! its just SO FASINATING TO ME!!! but like.. in a good way. i like knowing that our world could never again come down to such cruelty.

[LatinBabe]

just look at rwanda and iraq.... believe me, it has come to such cruelty, its only hidden from us in press conferences... instead of taught in elementary schools like the holocaust.

[SheepShank]

The Rwanda genocide is a horrible act that has destroyed most of there culture, when I was doing a research paper on that I think it said something like 800,000 people were murdered in only the span of a 100 days.


Also 129 soldiers died in Iraq last month while in action

[anjang86]

kofi annan broke the rwanda thing up... good man

[LatinBabe]

yes, 129 solders isnt good for the moral support, but compared to real warfare... that miraculous....

what i really meant was the torturin by saddam and his sons which has been beyong imagination over there.

[TheKOB]

Originally posted by nrvlc
kofi annan broke the rwanda thing up... good man

Isn't it amazing what the UN can do when they put their mind to something? Makes me want them to do it more often...

[TheKOB]

Originally posted by LatinBabe
yes, 129 solders isnt good for the moral support, but compared to real warfare... that miraculous....

what i really meant was the torturin by saddam and his sons which has been beyong imagination over there.

yesterday I read that 700-some soldiers have died in Iraq, but *only* 500-some have died from hostile action. My little brother heard at one point a month or two ago (who knows if it still holds true today) that 1/3 of the soldiers that die over there die of natural causes.

On a completely different subject, does it irritate anyone else (if just a little bit) that it seems the same Iraqis that are getting so po'ed about all these prison photos (which do turn my stomach, no doubt about that) are the same people cheering when that mob burned the bodies of american civilians? I don't understand how the international community can be so two-faced...it's like they're happy when we fail.

Comments? Impressions?

[Infrared]

Originally posted by TheKOB
yesterday I read that 700-some soldiers have died in Iraq, but *only* 500-some have died from hostile action. My little brother heard at one point a month or two ago (who knows if it still holds true today) that 1/3 of the soldiers that die over there die of natural causes.

On a completely different subject, does it irritate anyone else (if just a little bit) that it seems the same Iraqis that are getting so po'ed about all these prison photos (which do turn my stomach, no doubt about that) are the same people cheering when that mob burned the bodies of american civilians? I don't understand how the international community can be so two-faced...it's like they're happy when we fail.

Comments? Impressions?

The prison thing has turned into a huge mess. Not only will it be used for anti american propaganda, it will be an excuse to kill more of the soldiers fighting over seas.

[anjang86]

Originally posted by TheKOB
Isn't it amazing what the UN can do when they put their mind to something? Makes me want them to do it more often...

wait... so... just because the UN goes against the US then that means they didnt put their minds into it?? I think its more of the US not listening to the UN... remember the problems they had years ago when the US wasn't supplying the UN with their fair share of the money???

BTW: Kofi was the one that fixed that problem also. But I'm afraid with stubborn bush in the oval office, I dont even think Kofi could mend this...

[TheKOB]

I was talking about the way the UN really gets involved instead of worrying about pleasing everyone, it can actually get stuff done. Now, when it's worried about reaching a concensus before doing something, nothing ever gets done...it's being stifiled by it's own complications. Think of it this way...if, before doing anything, the federal government had to consult with every state's government and reach a concensus. First, it would take a freakin' long time, and by the time it did get done, the situation would've either disapated or gotten worse. Second, in the effort to please everyone, whatever it was that got passed in the first place would be so watered down that it wouldn't be effective at all.

Also, the US is the teeth of the UN. I'm not sure about the finances of the UN (I probably don't even want to know) but I figure the US contributes the vast majority of the troops to any UN "peacekeeping" mission...which usually ends up getting shot at because of those "shoot me" blue helments. I figure we should be somehow paid out of, say, france's dues for doing the most action. Having the UN control the US is like having the tail wag the dog...

It's very frustrating, because the UN has the means to do so much, but doesnt because it's got a weak leader and a weak organization. How was Kofi chosen? A nice guy from a poor African nation (which may have given him some clout w/ the Rwanda issue). If Kofi was more stubborn and ballsy with world leaders (a la bush) I think that the UN could be transformed into something other than the old-castrated-men-sitting-on-the-porch-yelling-at-dogs-pooping-on-their-lawns-but-being-too-lazy-and/or-weak-to-do-anything-about-it Club (that'll make one heck of an acronym for membership cards and tshirts).

Basically, action is discouraged. When someone finally does take the initiative, they're criticized by the global community. Also, I think a lot of countries (and therefore the UN) delight in what we do wrong, because we're the biggest kid on the block. Cite me for american arrogence, but I know that things would be a bunch worse if, say Russia and the US switched places...or God forbid Saudia Arabia, Israel, Germany, or <insert name lacking vowels here>stan.

[nmlax22]

I am pretty sure i remember someone saying that the U.S. pays the majority of the UN budget, and who knows about troops. It is all pretty stupid though, why should we pay for them to tell us we cant deal with our own problems, and then bail their asses out when the screw stuff up?

[LatinBabe]

oooh no you don't... politics goes to the kerry vs bush thread... its just too mind boggling to read about it in every thread! :laugh

but it is funny... some kid makes a stupid comment and the whole board follows it until some other kid makes another comment that leads the board in a new area of discussion! :concerned

oh well... heres my quick take on it so yall can get back to yalls bush vs kerry argument theKOB and nrvlc....

bush did what the UN should have done. now if only he had a more intelligent appearence then he wouldnt be criticized as much. he dont look smart, nor are his words very moving... but i think i heard the phrase once.."actions speak louder than words..." and by goly he sure has done a good job, and still is... and will continue to come november and the next four years of his office.

[anjang86]

Originally posted by nmlax22
I am pretty sure i remember someone saying that the U.S. pays the majority of the UN budget, and who knows about troops. It is all pretty stupid though, why should we pay for them to tell us we cant deal with our own problems, and then bail their asses out when the screw stuff up?

when have they screwed stuff up???

They can say the same thing about us

[V-cut]

Originally posted by LatinBabe
but it is funny... some kid makes a stupid comment and the whole board follows it until some other kid makes another comment that leads the board in a new area of discussion! :concerned

;) its my pride and joy!

[anjang86]

Originally posted by V-cut
;) its my pride and joy!

if you guys were here earlier today I think this conversation would have gotten intersting, but you guys missed all the drama.

[nmlax22]

true, but they dont pay the majority of the budget, and i wasnt saying they have screwed something up, but when they do, we will be the ones to come bail them out.

[anjang86]

Originally posted by nmlax22
true, but they dont pay the majority of the budget, and i wasnt saying they have screwed something up, but when they do, we will be the ones to come bail them out.

Who says we are going to be the ones to bail them out... maybe clinton would, but I'm willing to bet Bush will be happy when the UN screws up. He wouldnt help them, if he did he would only do it to show his "bipartisan politics."

The US definately does pay the majority of the budget... but when the US doesnt like something they'll say 'screw it, we're bigger and we have an army, try and stop us.'

[V-cut]

ok nvrlc... lets try to look at what may have happened had we not gone to iraq.

saddam would still be in power
millions more of his own people would be killed and turtored under his regime
billions of dollars would be stolen from neighboring countries concerning oil
thousands of citizens from neighboring countries would be killed over the oil, if not millions
neighboring countries would be invaded by iraq (which btw, are US allies and incredibly important to our economy withour vast power needs)
saddams military would gain more and more advanced military technology at the expense of his people
saddams recklessness would probably lead him to use his own people as unwilling tests subjects of his wmds (just because we havnt found them, doesnt mean they arent there. we have found sufficient evidence to prove they were developing them though. the mobile test labs, the computer tech etc...)
US economy would plumit as he stockpiles oil and other natural resouces
after many years of debate the UN would go in for human rights violations and by that time they would have tangible eveidence of wmds as well as many other extremely dangerous situations as well as countless lifes on their shoulders for not acting sooner.

remember, just becuase you do what is right, doesnt mean the world will love you.

[anjang86]

remember, just becuase you do what is right, doesnt mean the world will love you.

see that's where you lose me...

just because we do what's right doenst mean the world will love you.

If the world disagree's with you then are you not even going to consider what they are thinking, or are we going to assume that we know what is right and the world doesnt know jack?? We just go in there head strong and never look back?

I understand all the good that came out of the war... believe me I do. But whatever is happening in Iraq is happening all over the world.

Do you understand that now more and more middle eastern countries are mad at us right now??? Does that mean that the outcome is good? Maybe the immediate result comes out looking bright... but in the future there is no telling what can happen.

[V-cut]

alright nvrlc... we got a good debate going right now... so you got my full attention.

ok, put it this way... Say Miachael Jackson was at the peak of his career righ now. He is so popular that only a few critics will speak out against him because the public adores him. Then eveidence that he has commited sexual molestation of a kid comes into focus. due to the people love for this singer/actor, people write it off as false and nothing happens when its all said and done. now, imagine you were a cop who was a relative of this kid, wouldn't you want justice? you would do everything in your power to get him in jail. after you fight long and hard you finally manage to get him behind bars despite his popular support. the people would hate you, they would hunt you down like that guy who caught that baseball thus handing the game to the other team. you did the right thing, but the world still hates you for it.

or try this...Tzar Nicholas and Tzaress Alexandra (the last Tzar of Russia) have one son, Elexia. this son is stricken with hemophelia. when he was around 14 years old he falls and gets a bruise that is fairly large. after a few weeks the internal bleeding does not subside and his life is surely going to end. But lo-and-behold, there is a monk named Rasputan who predicts the boy will live. when Elexia over-comes the bruise and survives, Tzaress Alexandra puts all her faith in Rasputan. He however is not quite a monk by any standards. he drinks, rapes woman, exposes himself in public, and lashes out at everyone. Alexandra believes that all these "stories" of Rasputan are false and begins to hate the people for calling him a wicked man. she is too blinded by the fact he did one good thing to see what kind of person he truly is. later Rasputan is slain in public for lashing out at the people again and thus Alexandra and Nicholas begin lashing out at the people too. in the end, this is one of the main reasons the Tzars are no more. they failed to look past the guises people put before the, and look at them now... making a discovery channel special on the lives of the Tzars. here, the people were right, they had every reason to slay Rasputan for his offences. but the royal family are so taken with him, that they hate the people for acting this way.

saddam, though he has used his people as guinnea pig s for his own personal delight, had a certain repect by the muslim religion which even his haneous acts couldnt expell him from the faith. in muslim religion, they are all brothers and are called to protect each other for better or worse, no matter how bad or good the person is they are to protect. also, We have been a bit ignorant to their faith and just rushed in there with our western military, and western military way of tackling an enemy. we have disgraced their faith and thus they hate us. but when the day is over, we did do the right thing.

[anjang86]

Originally posted by V-cut
alright nvrlc... we got a good debate going right now... so you got my full attention.

ok, put it this way... Say Miachael Jackson was at the peak of his career righ now. He is so popular that only a few critics will speak out against him because the public adores him. Then eveidence that he has commited sexual molestation of a kid comes into focus. due to the people love for this singer/actor, people write it off as false and nothing happens when its all said and done. now, imagine you were a cop who was a relative of this kid, wouldn't you want justice? you would do everything in your power to get him in jail. after you fight long and hard you finally manage to get him behind bars despite his popular support. the people would hate you, they would hunt you down like that guy who caught that baseball thus handing the game to the other team. you did the right thing, but the world still hates you for it.

or try this...Tzar Nicholas and Tzaress Alexandra (the last Tzar of Russia) have one son, Elexia. this son is stricken with hemophelia. when he was around 14 years old he falls and gets a bruise that is fairly large. after a few weeks the internal bleeding does not subside and his life is surely going to end. But lo-and-behold, there is a monk named Rasputan who predicts the boy will live. when Elexia over-comes the bruise and survives, Tzaress Alexandra puts all her faith in Rasputan. He however is not quite a monk by any standards. he drinks, rapes woman, exposes himself in public, and lashes out at everyone. Alexandra believes that all these "stories" of Rasputan are false and begins to hate the people for calling him a wicked man. she is too blinded by the fact he did one good thing to see what kind of person he truly is. later Rasputan is slain in public for lashing out at the people again and thus Alexandra and Nicholas begin lashing out at the people too. in the end, this is one of the main reasons the Tzars are no more. they failed to look past the guises people put before the, and look at them now... making a discovery channel special on the lives of the Tzars. here, the people were right, they had every reason to slay Rasputan for his offences. but the royal family are so taken with him, that they hate the people for acting this way.

saddam, though he has used his people as guinnea pig s for his own personal delight, had a certain repect by the muslim religion which even his haneous acts couldnt expell him from the faith. in muslim religion, they are all brothers and are called to protect each other for better or worse, no matter how bad or good the person is they are to protect. also, We have been a bit ignorant to their faith and just rushed in there with our western military, and western military way of tackling an enemy. we have disgraced their faith and thus they hate us. but when the day is over, we did do the right thing.

The monk story is an interesting one, but I could use the same story against you. Lets make the Tsar the US and make the public the rest of the world... it can go either way. The public knows what's right but the Tsar insists they are wrong...

Originally posted by V-cut
We have been a bit ignorant to their faith and just rushed in there with our western military, and western military way of tackling an enemy. we have disgraced their faith and thus they hate us. but when the day is over, we did do the right thing.

I'm not going to sit here and say that capturing and taking Sadaam away was wrong and that he needed to stay there. However, going in suddenly like that, and going in without much support from the rest of the world shows me a tad bit of arrogance. We got Sadaam, that's great, now lets get the hell out of there cause we're digging a hole deeper and deeper...

We will get stuck in this war, we dont see it now but the rest of the world sees it.

[LatinBabe]

i side with V here... we arent stuck.. we made a long term commitment to iraq a long time ago. of course we are going to be there a long time. yes, to some people it may seem that our quick move into the war may be arrogant, but imagine how many lives we saved with those precious months or even years of debate had we stuck with the UN. also, there are the wmd threats, they have been there a long time.. and i believe as V said , there was sufficient evidence that there was involvement with wmds in iraq and any extra time given to him may have had extreme consequesnces when we finally did go in.

many arab nations hate us right now because we have a tendency to draw out of wars right after our main goal is recieved and then leaves the country in chaos.

afghanistan was in war with russia right? we supported Afghanistn to try to stop the advance with communsim. when we realized that there wasnt much else we could do there we drew out just as the communists mounted a heavy advance that killed many arabs because they were not able to operate the advanced militant weapons we left them, and thus were slaughtered.

if we left iraq now... there would be very radical parties that would gain power in iraq if we werent there with a stable platform already.

a revolution takes place certain things always happen, thankfully though with the US presence there we are able to remove some of the negative effects that occur.
-after the initial rebellion and power is seized by the conspirators there is a power struggle among them
-all of the conspirators are eliminated from the equation by each other
-chaos ensues
-radicalist gain power
-reign of terror ensues as he takes complete control of country and purges the nation of its old culture through force and bloodshed
-radicalist overthrown
-chaotic period ensues again
-left-wing rulers gain power and fail because they are too soft
-chaos again
-government manages to stabilize finally. usually resorting to the governement that was established before the revolution because they have no experience with any other working government.

with the US there, we will be able to establish democracy with-out the radicalists or left-wingest takeing power and causing extreme casualties.

sure.. it will take time, and they will hate us in the process.. americans will die... but atleast they will whiel doing the right thing.

[anjang86]

many arab nations hate us right now because we have a tendency to draw out of wars right after our main goal is recieved and then leaves the country in chaos.

Damnnit... I have a final to take tomorrow and i have to study for that.. I cant hold up my end of the arguement tonight but I will respond to the statement above...

that's not entirely true.... they dont hate us only for that reason, there are many reasons for them hating us. I dont the US will ever understand why arab nations hate us.

[LatinBabe]

Originally posted by nrvlc
Damnnit... I have a final to take tomorrow and i have to study for that.. I cant hold up my end of the arguement tonight but I will respond to the statement above...

that's not entirely true.... they dont hate us only for that reason, there are many reasons for them hating us. I dont the US will ever understand why arab nations hate us.

i never aid that was the only reason.. but that is the reason why Osama made his attacks against America... i believe i read somewhere that he was bred to hate the US because of the slaugher that ensued when we left them there.

yeah, there are many other reasons to. but you said that we should just leave now... while their nation is still in complete chaos and probably breed leaders even worse than saddam.

[V-cut]

Originally posted by nrvlc
The monk story is an interesting one, but I could use the same story against you. Lets make the Tsar the US and make the public the rest of the world... it can go either way. The public knows what's right but the Tsar insists they are wrong...

im not sure i follow nvrlc...

upon whom are we looking at favorily that would blind our vision? human rights? thats the only thing, and by goly ill defend my rights to the bitter end then have them stripped from me. and they are in no way misleading.

does the rest of the world also believe that human rights are a bad thing and that we have no buissness fighting for people we have never met from some far away country so that hey may experience joy in their lives rather than just fear, pain and hatred?

i really dont want to flame, i want to keep this as educational as possible for the both of us since we look at life from a different views... but i can in NO way see what you mean by the tzar symbolizing the US.

the closest i can see is that we are fighting for whats right (the people) and the tzar is the rest of the world who are being mislead by "politics" and thus we are condemned because we fight for whats right, while the UN is too busy bickering over trying to please people and the Arab nations protecting their muslim brothers(and many other ties between them).

(at the beginning of the russian revolution, the people started to fight for their rights, and blamed the tzar of supporting ir-rational movements set forth by Rasputan; how the tzar reacted was named bloody sunday. he sent his military into the city square where the protestors were and he slayed thousands of people.)

[nmlax22]

Another reason the people questioned the tsar is because while he was at "the front" during WWI, his wife, a german, was in charge of the government. People saw this as somewhat strange, since at the time german=enemy.

Also, Rasputin didnt die very easily. The people that were trying to kill him had a really hard time with it. First they gave him a ton of poison, enough to kioll 10(?) men. He figured out wht they were doing, and tried to run and was shot many times. He was still alive so they tied him up and threw him in a river. When they found him he was on a river bank, untied and had froze to death. The guy simply wouldn't die, or so the legend goes...

[LatinBabe]

Rasputan and Alexandra were leading the country... and as everyone knows by now if they've followed the thread.. Rasputan was a bitterly hated man. but since Alexandra adored him so, all the ministers in the government were weeded out so Rasputan could have more and more power.

he was finally killed by these ministers and a mob of other people who hated him. he was given cyanide... which they had intended to kill himm.. but you can follow the story with nmlaxs posts...

so now out of russion history and back to iraq, which is ironic due to russias tie to afghanistan and our tie to them and iraq... queer that came about.

alright... yeah... until nvrlc decides to post again i have nothing left to say.

[anjang86]

V-Cut: I dont think I understood you orginial point with the Rasputan story, what I understood was that the public was the US and the Tsar was the rest of the world. I was just saying that the Tsar could just as easily have been the US and the public being the rest of the world. The rest of the world isnt denying that Sadaam is a bad man, they just argue that the US is going about it the wrong way. but to tell you the truth, I have been reading chapter after chapter of microeconomics... so I didnt really want to read what you just posted :dummy ... I will read that tomorrow though after my final

goodnight everybody :bye

[V-cut]

my last post was just asking how could it be the other way around with US being the tzar? the tzar couldnt see past what they wanted too while the people just wanted justice.

if you switched places then you would have a tzar who looked at the world through the eyes of justice and wanted to fix the problems before they became to hard to handle, and the people just wanting to appease everyone and in the end get nothing done after many years of debate.

i really dont see how it fits the same template. but whatever... talk again tomorrow.