Simultaneous Technical Fouls Quiz

[LaxRef]

NCAA or NFHS rules:

(1) The ball is loose and, as near as the officials can tell, A2 and B2 commit technical fouls at the same time.

(2) A1 has possession and, as near as the officials can tell, A2 and B2 commit technical fouls at the same time.

(3) A1 has possession and, as near as the officials can tell, A1 and A2 commit technical fouls at the same time.

(4) A1 has possession and B1 slashes A1, flag down. Then A1 wards and as near as the officials can tell, A2 commits a personal foul at the same time.

Rulings?

(In each case, I'm picturing the two fouls being called at roughly the same time by different officials, and they do not know which one occured first.)

[digger]

(1) Technical fouls are cancelled as no personal foul occured. Loose ball results in face off

(2) Same as above, yet Team A gets possession as the possessed the ball when the whistle was blewn.

(3) If the referees knew which foul was committed first, that foul would result in change of possession to Team B and the second foul before which a whistle should have been blown would result in a 30sec penalty. As the referees didn't knew which foul was committed first, I would award the ball to Team B and give Team A's inhome a 30 sec penalty, as there was a foul which would result in a penalty but the situation is unclear so the guilty player can't be clearly identified.

(4) Simultaneous fouls:
B1 1min penalty for slashing
A1 30 sec penalty for warding
A2 1-3mins penalty for personal fould

Ball was in possession and team A serves more penalty time, therefore Team B gets possession.


Keep in mind, these statements are based on ILF rules. :-)
Not having read NFHS or other rules I assume the part on simultaneous fouls is either the same or very similar.

Have a nice day.

[LaxRef]

Keep in mind, these statements are based on ILF rules. :-)
Not having read NFHS or other rules I assume the part on simultaneous fouls is either the same or very similar.


Assuming your answers are correct for ILF rules, there must be at least a few differences here!

[tjklax01]

NFHS Rules

1. Loose ball Technicals, no time served. Ball is awarded by AP (Rule 7.6 ART. 3 a)

2. Both A2 and B2 would serve 30 seconds. Ball is awarded to Team A (Rule 7.6 ART. 4 b 1.)

3. Loss of possession. Ball awarded to Team B.

4. B1 serves 1 minute, A2 serves 1 minute. Both of these are non releasable. However A1 will not serve any time (See NFHS Case Book 7.6 Situation J). Ball to be awarded back to Team A.

[LaxRef]

NFHS Rules

1. Loose ball Technicals, no time served. Ball is awarded by AP (Rule 7.6 ART. 3 a)

2. Both A2 and B2 would serve 30 seconds. Ball is awarded to Team A (Rule 7.6 ART. 4 b 1.)

3. Loss of possession. Ball awarded to Team B.

4. B1 serves 1 minute, A2 serves 1 minute. Both of these are non releasable. However A1 will not serve any time (See NFHS Case Book 7.6 Situation J). Ball to be awarded back to Team A.

(2) and (4) are incorrect. (3) is open for debate, but your answer is probably as good as any.

[CardinalPuff]

1. ball awarded according to AP

2. b2 serves 30 seconds, a2's technical kills FDSW

3. a1's technical turns ball over to b, a2 serves thirty seconds

4. b1 and a2 serve 1 minute, no release...a maintains possession....

[LaxRef]

Here are my thoughts:

(1) The ball is loose and, as near as the officials can tell, A2 and B2 commit technical fouls at the same time.

Alternate possession. No real question here.

2) A1 has possession and, as near as the officials can tell, A2 and B2 commit technical fouls at the same time.

This one is tricky. There is no play-on or flag down in effect here, and all fouls are technical. Therefore, by

Penalty time:
1. If there is no play-on or flag down in effect and if all fouls are technical,
the fouls cancel.

the fouls cancel, and team A must therefore maintain possession by 7-6-c-2-(a).

However, note that if you could discern the order, suddenly all kinds of possibilities present depending on the order and the exact nature of the fouls. For example:

(a) A2 wards, then B2 holds. Kill the play on the ward, ignore the dead-ball hold, B's ball.

(b) A2 wards, then B2 commits conduct foul. Kill the play on the ward, award the ball back to A on the conduct foul.

(c) B2 holds, then A1 wards. Throw the flag for the hold, kill the play on the ward. B2 serves 30 seconds, A gets the ball.


(3) A1 has possession and, as near as the officials can tell, A1 and A2 commit technical fouls at the same time.

Again, this depends on the nature of the fouls. In priciple, we know the fouls aren't really simultaneous (in the everyday sense of the word, not the lacrosse sense; in the lacrosse sense, these are not simultaneous fouls at all because we don't have fouls on opposing teams). So, looking at some possibilities:

(1) A1 wards, A2 commits moving screen. Either one of these turns the ball over to B, and neither one would be enforced during a dead ball, so give the ball to B.

(2) A1 commits conduct foul, A2 commits conduct foul. First foul kills the play and turns the ball over to B; the second one is now a technical with B in possession, so either A1 or A2 serves 30 seconds.

(3) A1 commits conduct foul, A2 sets illegal screen. If A1's foul was first, you'd turn the ball over to B and then ignore the dead-ball illegal screen. If A2's foul was first, you'd turn the ball over to B and then call a time-serving foul on A1 for the conduct foul. If the fouls are, as far as you can tell, simultaneous, I have no idea what you're "supposed to" do.

(4) A1 has possession and B1 slashes A1, flag down. Then A1 wards and as near as the officials can tell, A2 commits a personal foul at the same time.

Here, B1 serves 1:00 for the slash, A2 serves 1:00 for the personal (most likely; could be 2:00 or 3:00), and A1 serves 30 seconds for the ward! This is because of:

2. If the team in possession (or entitled to possession) commits:
(a) Only technical fouls, no penalty time will be served by that team.
(b) Any personal foul, all players involved will serve penalty time. This shall include technical and personal fouls by either team.

We have simultaneous fouls here, because there are live-ball fouls on members of opposing teams, and both the ward and A2's personal are live-ball because they happen simultaneously. Thus, A1 has to serve for the ward!

This troubles me, because if the ward occured a fraction of a second before or after A2's personal, A1 would not have to serve, and in principle we know that one or the other came first. Thus, I would not recommend splitting hairs and making A1 serve for the ward. However, given the language of the rules, making A1 serve is the correct call.

BTW, team B would be awarded the ball here (assuming A1 does serve) based on less overall penalty time for team B (1:00 vs. 1:30). However, if you don't make A1 serve, team A gets the ball because penalty time would be equal and team A was due possession based on the flag-down for the slash by B1.

This quiz was just in case any of you were getting cocky about having the simultaneous fouls rule figured out! :dummy:

[C.Montgomery]

In the last scenario, if you don't have A1 serve you're basically saying that the ward happened first which kills the play, so it could be argued that A2's foul is a dead ball foul and thus team B would still get the ball.

[digger]

Just had a look at the NCAA rules as I couldn't find the full high school rules online (anyone knows where to download them, I'm curious) and it turns out there are more differences to the ILF rules than I had thought at first.
Here is the simultaneous rule from the ILF rulebook, in case you are interested:

RULE 81 SIMULTANEOUS FOULS
81.1 When a member of a team commits a foul, and then a member of the opposing team commits a foul, then the fouls shall be considered simultaneous fouls, provided that the fouls are not separated by a whistle which has restarted play, or by the scoring of a goal.

81.2 When simultaneous fouls have been committed, the following rules shall apply:
i) All fouls being technical, the fouls cancel, and the team in possession retains possession where the ball was when the whistle sounded. If no team is in possession, the ball is faced where it was when the whistle sounded.
ii) If at least one of the fouls is a personal foul, then penalty time shall be served for all the fouls, and the following rules shall apply:
- If one team incurs more total penalty time than the other, then the team with the lesser total penalty time shall be awarded the ball.
- If the total penalty times are equal, then the team in possession of the ball shall retain possession of it.
- If the total penalty times are equal, and neither team has possession of the ball, then the ball shall be faced where it was when the whistle blew.
iii) For the purpose of totalling penalty time in the case of simultaneous fouls, an expulsion foul shall count as a 3-minute penalty.
iv) There shall be no free clear after simultaneous fouls.

Keep in mind there is no such thing as alternate possession in the ILF rules.
The face-off instead of alternate possession and the fact that all fouls have to be served if there is one personal foul on any team are two points which should be noticed if you don't want to read the rule. :bye:

[LaxRef]

In the last scenario, if you don't have A1 serve you're basically saying that the ward happened first which kills the play, so it could be argued that A2's foul is a dead ball foul and thus team B would still get the ball.

Not exactly. If the ward happens first (so A1 does not serve for the ward), then A2's personal is a dead ball foul and thus team B would get possession. This would technically be a simultaneous foul situation since there are live-ball fouls on opposing teams, but the team with possession commits only technicals, so none of the "interesting" portions of 7-6 kick in.

But if the ward happens second (so it's a dead-ball ward and thus A1 does not serve for the ward), then B1 and A2 have live-ball fouls which are simultaneous (in the lacrosse-rule sense) and since A had possession team A will maintain possession (assuming penalty times are equal).

So, you're right that in your scenario that if the ward is first then B gets the ball, but you're wrong in stating that "if you don't make A1 serve for the ward then you're implying the ward must have happened first."

[BlueJaysLaxFan]

This quiz was just in case any of you were getting cocky about having the simultaneous fouls rule figured out! :dummy:

I agree that simultaneous fouls is an area that we do not deal with as much because we seem to sort out the order of the fouls. But, this reverse quiz certainly made me realize how much I needed to better understand an SF situation. I called SF once early this season only because 2 opposing players were starting to go at it and I could not tell who started what by the time I saw them. This also made sure that they were both out for NR time, though I don't remember if I gave them USC.

Since we're in post-season reverse quiz mode LR, how about one on substitution infractions, another rarely called foul (or should it?).

[LaxRef]

Since we're in post-season reverse quiz mode LR, how about one on substitution infractions, another rarely called foul (or should it?).

In a two-man game, we don't catch much in the way of sub infractions. You really need that third official to catch them regularly. I usually make a point of warning the coaches when we go to three-man for the playoffs because they aren't used to having someone calling those fouls.