Goalie Chest Protectors Fail Tests [Archive]

#15Roadies

07-12-2006, 07:56 AM

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but I figured since I stumbled across it, I would post anyways.

I don't want to sound any unnecessary alarms, but here is a link to a study completed by the American Academy of Pediatrics regarding chest protectors for field lacrosse goalies and baseball catchers. They failed. Hopefully the manufacturers will step up and address this.

"The velocity, location, and timing of chest wall impacts in our model were designed to maximize the likelihood of VF. Although chest wall impacts during athletic training and competition do not always share these characteristics, testing protectors under laboratory circumstances allows for assessment of their ability to protect against a worst-case scenario, the standard against which protector design should be measured."

Now, this is a worse-case scenario test so the chances of anyone getting seriously hurt are remote. However, they do make some good points. If you are a coach, make sure your club doesn't scrimp on the goalie chest protectors.

Be forewarned: animals were killed or cruelly treated during this study.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/117/4/e656

NEMESIS_keeper

07-12-2006, 08:49 AM

NuKoN

07-12-2006, 09:15 AM

thats crazy im not sure what to say to that....but i have sister that is a goalie to but i would think she has a little more "natural protection" in the chest. im not trying to be a perv but wouldnt that curve the resaults of that study?

I've heard it kills to get hit in the bosom.. maybe she'd rather be dead?

EDIT: I note that, for the most part, those are not the CP's that are considered "better" bymany

ReLaxin 13

07-12-2006, 09:17 AM

Of course that Warrior one wouldn't pass. If you put on three layered shirts it would be more protection then that thing offers. Those are all older CP's though. There aren't any newer ones from the last 2-3 years. Mabye the Brine Pro but that's it.

THE WALL #00

07-12-2006, 09:41 AM

i missed it what lacrosse one did they say was the best?

thebrettness

07-12-2006, 09:42 AM

My personal favorite is the heart guard

NEMESIS_keeper

07-12-2006, 09:51 AM

My personal favorite is the heart guard

ya dude i use the heart guard when i play, those 110mph shots feel like nothing LoL.

gaels_laxer_33

07-12-2006, 10:36 AM

Wow, Im glad to see the STX gladiator wasnt tested thats what i have so hopefully its good...thats pretty crazy though

dram183

07-12-2006, 11:13 AM

well think about it, it also says the pigs were 11-18kg, which is like 24-40 pounds. and youre hitting them with a 40mph ball. thats the equivalent of taking shots on a like 7 year old or something, they also dont have muscle there, or probably stronger bones

marflax33

07-12-2006, 02:33 PM

Whoo. That is comforting. Looks like ill be dead by next tuesday-ish. Oh darn. Like i had a lot to live for *rolls eyes*. Anyways, Looks like brine is the way to go from those charts. Thickest, most foam, and the Ventilator has those bead things that do wonders. GO WITH BRINE, OR GO WITH CARDIAC ARREST! That definently needs to be added to their slogan lists.

mohawklax1212

07-12-2006, 03:00 PM

haha yeah even though i couldnt understand most of what is goin on in that test.....no jus playin. but thats why im not a goalie. not that im a wuss. but i firmly believe in protectin firstly my boys downstairs and secondly my heart.

OldGoalie

07-12-2006, 03:02 PM

Wow, Im glad to see the STX gladiator wasnt tested thats what i have so hopefully its good...thats pretty crazy though

Not sure it would make a huge difference, given the design of some of the CP's already used foam + hard shell, like the Glad. Now, the Glad does have an additional sternum pad underneath it that has an extra layer, however, it seems like the softer, more viscous materials, like the beads in the Brine, dissipate energy better than the others do.

I really do hope the manufacturers take heed of this research and investigate some new materials/ideas. The problem is, it takes R&D $$$, something not in major abundance for the big 3, and not easy to do considering you need animal trials to validate the effectiveness of new CP's.

Keep in mind, most of the articles refer to children under 18, which, due to more compliant/undeveloped chest walls, raises the likelihood of CC.

OldGoalie

07-12-2006, 05:12 PM

BTW - this should probably be moved to the goalie forum considerin its importance.

sailorslax88

07-12-2006, 05:54 PM

what's a swine?

NEMESIS_keeper

07-12-2006, 05:55 PM

i would like to know how a Revolution Air MLL Goalie Guard 5.0 by warrior would work. so far i havent had shot knock the wind out of me yet.

stegmakk

07-12-2006, 06:02 PM

its been a problem for a while...while the chest protectors out there are good at protecting chests from traumatic damage and impact damage...they do nothing to protect from CC...(VF or Ventricle Fibrulation is what causes CC-Comotio Cordis)...
In youth are more succeptable due to pliable chest wall (not hardened yet)...
in baseball leagues many catchers wear the heart guard to help protect...
I talked to the creator og the heart guard and while nothing is a guarantee, it is something i would wear playing keeper...

I wish companies focused on this when they made their pads...but for every piece of goalie gear you can sell what...12 pieces of gear for the other players...so there is little incentive to pump cash into this R&D...

has anyone tried the shockdoctor pads? they look like they have added protection but i am no goalie and have not seen these pads in person...

NEMESIS_keeper

07-12-2006, 06:15 PM

i havent seen a shockdoctor goalie pad tho...

jaw22

07-12-2006, 08:34 PM

what's a swine?

Pigs, boar, or hogs.

Very unnecessary experiment.

marflax33

07-12-2006, 08:36 PM

Pigs, boar, or hogs.

Very unnecessary experiment.

Animal Rights Activist? Perhaps... But i wouldnt really classify this as "unnecessary". I mean, would you rather have people or pigs dying?
And they probably eat the pigs after they kill them with a rubber ball :)

NEMESIS_keeper

07-12-2006, 08:38 PM

MUHS #30

07-12-2006, 10:05 PM

wow this is interesting. But from what i've never heard of something like this happening to a goalie.

OldGoalie

07-12-2006, 10:14 PM

I wish companies focused on this when they made their pads...but for every piece of goalie gear you can sell what...12 pieces of gear for the other players...so there is little incentive to pump cash into this R&D...

Exactly my point above. The R&D to verify the effectiveness of pads against CC would be hugely expensive and would require more swine or other animals. So, likely any future development will be based on assumptions about the properties of materials that may help limit or prevent CC, like the foam beads in the BRine Ventilator, and not actual animal testing.

lax4life6

07-12-2006, 10:19 PM

maybe not a goalie but boiardi ( the player from cornell) died of cc. and when youre a goalie that kind of thing becomes morel likely

holyschnikes101

07-13-2006, 08:37 AM

I'm kinda glad my team just upgraded from a 7 year old warrior goalie pad to a brand new Brine Supercrosse goalie pad. I was like "man, I might play goalie, just to wear this thing"

Dadabhoy_Muzzi

07-13-2006, 08:40 AM

Now I am worried. My school uses a DeBeer Icon chest pad. It might be time to upgrade.

OldGoalie

07-13-2006, 10:36 AM

maybe not a goalie but boiardi ( the player from cornell) died of cc. and when youre a goalie that kind of thing becomes morel likely

It's not known for sure whether boiardi died of CC. Apparently the EMT's defibrillated him right on the field after the blow, which should have helped, but he was never resuscitated, meaning it could have been something else.

As for goalies who have died of cc, Louis Acompora is the prime example. He was 14.

http://www.la12.org/

OldGoalie

07-13-2006, 10:38 AM

If you read the research, though, it's not known if any of them are any more effective. The Brine Ventilator Pro is the only one that was lower on the scale, but still resulted in 20% occurance rate of CC, not much better than an unprotected chest. They haven't tested some of the newer CP's, so it's impossible to know which ones will provide the best, if any, additional protection from CC.

Stonewall35

07-13-2006, 02:00 PM

IMHO, what manufacturers should do is make a field chest protector with just as much protection as a box one. This way, goalies should be better protected on the field.

NEMESIS_keeper

07-13-2006, 02:51 PM

IMHO, what manufacturers should do is make a field chest protector with just as much protection as a box one. This way, goalies should be better protected on the field.

no dude, i rather risk it then wear a box pad outdoors. one that thing is huge, two loose movement/speed, and three over heat wicked easy.

stegmakk

07-13-2006, 03:24 PM

I also think that with the cost of this kind of RD that the benefits would not be realized...also the fact that I don't think anything could protect against CC 100%, AEDs on the sideline of every game is another avenue to take...

However, do not let this stop you from playing...every sport has risks...heck, even waking up and showering has risks...i do not think Lou or George would want players to stop...but instead be educated about what CC is and what can be done...and get your voices out there for changes in equipment and AEDs actually on the sidelines...
Oldgoalie's link to la12.org is an excellent point to start looking around and learning more...

Here is what I wrote about it 2 years ago: http://www.laxnation.com/home/displayarticle.php?category=articles&title=cordis&articleid=212

and a little tie in i did about Lou and this year's championship for UVA (IL could do a great in depth story about it...I was surprised they didnt considering the feel good human interest story it is) http://laxnation.com/home/displayarticle.php?category=articles&title=2006ncaad1&articleid=309

#15Roadies

07-13-2006, 03:47 PM

I think that if some goalies are wearing the heart guard that is not too far removed from a box like chest pad. Not the whole 2 ton box goalie upper, just a similar design to good box pads in the chest/heart area. I think box chest foam is about twice as thick. Whether they need to go that far for field or not, well I don't know.

For guys that wear the heart guard - is it worth it? I read one guy doesn't even feel the shots. As a newbie field goalie (because I want to know what goalies go through so I can be a more effective coach) I have taken a few in the chest with an old Brine basic cp, and a more recent STX one. A good shot can knock a few breaths out for sure, even on the newer pads. Can anyone make a comparison with shots in the chest with box pads?

What I am saying really, is that it doesn't appear to be a large leap in upping the safety for goalies and keeping with the necessity for mobility in a field goalie. It's more of a tweak than a whole R&D redesign.

btw - nice article Stegmakk, very well done and to the point. Thanks!

Stonewall35

07-13-2006, 11:50 PM

no dude, i rather risk it then wear a box pad outdoors. one that thing is huge, two loose movement/speed, and three over heat wicked easy.

What I meant would be as protective in the chest area and without the arms while still having full mobility. Marty O' Neill from Maximum Lacrosse made one for former Team Canada field goalie Jeff Gombar about 8 years ago and absolutely will not use anything else.

Stonewall35

07-13-2006, 11:58 PM

[QUOTE=#15Roadies]For guys that wear the heart guard - is it worth it? I read one guy doesn't even feel the shots. As a newbie field goalie (because I want to know what goalies go through so I can be a more effective coach) I have taken a few in the chest with an old Brine basic cp, and a more recent STX one. A good shot can knock a few breaths out for sure, even on the newer pads. Can anyone make a comparison with shots in the chest with box pads?[QUOTE]

I have taken shots in the chest in both box and field. What I can say is that I feel the ball a lot less in box than I do in field.

If I had my way, I would want a field chest protector to be just as protective as a box one. Case in point, Marty O' Neill of MaxLax made a field chest protector for former Team Canada field goalie Jeff Gombar. Gombar actually swears by it and absolutely will not use anything else in his life.

jaw22

08-06-2006, 06:47 PM

Animal Rights Activist? Perhaps... But i wouldnt really classify this as "unnecessary". I mean, would you rather have people or pigs dying?
And they probably eat the pigs after they kill them with a rubber ball :)

I'm no activist, I just think its stupid for them to attach a chest protecter to a pig and shoot lacrosse balls at it. I mean, how accurate can that be? Pigs don't have the same heart that humans do, and the protectors don't fit them right. I don't trust the validity of this experiment.

gfkeeper28

08-06-2006, 08:48 PM

They cut out the center of the chest protectors and attached them to the pigs. And Stonewall, MaxLax actually sold that chest protector exclusively through Bacharach before they closed down.

Teo

08-06-2006, 10:14 PM

radman

08-06-2006, 10:34 PM

I think they want you to wear bullet-proof body armor, but all that stuff goes to the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

fenderDman23

08-06-2006, 10:39 PM

I'm no activist, I just think its stupid for them to attach a chest protecter to a pig and shoot lacrosse balls at it. I mean, how accurate can that be? Pigs don't have the same heart that humans do, and the protectors don't fit them right. I don't trust the validity of this experiment.

actually pig hearts are very like human hearts... seriously pppl live off of heart transplants from pigs....

but all other points made were imo very accurate and i agree that these tests arent very valid

gfkeeper28

08-06-2006, 11:08 PM

but all other points made were imo very accurate and i agree that these tests arent very valid
Doubtful. I think the doctors doing this experiment know a lot more about more about the circumstances CC occurs under than anyone else here. I'm sure they did enough research to ensure they wouldn't be corrected by some kid on a message board.

OldGoalie

08-07-2006, 09:46 AM

Why the heck do they have to hurt animals, thats so sad... Can you imagine the reaction an animal has when that ball hits them in the chest!?!?!? Omfg.... can you imagine your dog or cat yelping really loud and dying a slow painful death in front of your face after getting hit by a ball!?!?!

A couple of points in response:

1) The swine in the experiments above were kept in a sedated state, so they never experienced any pain or feeling during the test. Also, as the article states, if after a blow the animal did go into CC, they were immediately shocked back into rhythm. If they couldn't be, they were euthanized humanely.

2) Animals are tested routinely for new medicines and medical products before they are tested in humans, and this is done as humanely as possible. Having worked for and around drug companies for a number of years, and having parents and a wife involved in conducting scientific research, I can testify to the fact that animals are treated humanely and pain and suffering are minimized as much as possible in this research.

Gaib

08-07-2006, 10:58 AM

gfkeeper28

08-07-2006, 11:52 AM

I've seen a few kids with the Brine Supercrosse, but they buy it small and take off all the pads to cut the "bulk".

OldGoalie

08-07-2006, 01:32 PM

Another problem that people seem to be avoiding is that large, bulky chest pads just don't sell as well. People on here complain all the time about how big and restricting the warrior pads are and I don't think anyone in the world bought the Brine Supercrosse (even after the days and weeks I spent designing that, my poor baby). This seems like a serious case of having your cake and wanting to eat it too - making a light, flexible, small chest pad that has superior heart protection isn't particularly feasible.
As for the George Boiardi case, I'm pretty sure he didn't die of CC. I believe he was struck on his side, near his arm-pit, and that it caused internal damage that caused him to die. I remember when I was at Brine my boss mentioned that CC wasn't the cause of death.

I agree that we want our cake and want to eat it too, but since the precordium is a relatively small part of the chest area, why couldn't we have a smaller overall CP with a very beefed up center area to protect the precordium? Like some sort of air bladder with foam beads around it just over the heart area, with normal foam/plate padding over the rest of the chest?

Also, I agree on Boiardi. As I have read, he was hit closer to the armpit, and was actually defibrillated on the field shortly after the blow, which failed to revive him. Sadly, it sounds more like he experienced what car accident victims do, i.e. a ruptured aorta (main heart valve).

Gaib

08-07-2006, 03:29 PM

I agree that we want our cake and want to eat it too, but since the precordium is a relatively small part of the chest area, why couldn't we have a smaller overall CP with a very beefed up center area to protect the precordium? Like some sort of air bladder with foam beads around it just over the heart area, with normal foam/plate padding over the rest of the chest?

Also, I agree on Boiardi. As I have read, he was hit closer to the armpit, and was actually defibrillated on the field shortly after the blow, which failed to revive him. Sadly, it sounds more like he experienced what car accident victims do, i.e. a ruptured aorta (main heart valve).

When I was working on the Supercrosse, I spent a lot of time trying to incorporate that kind of heart guard. I faced a few problems though. First, from a designers standpoint, it would make the chest protector asymmetrical, which is obviously a minor issue but still something to be considered. Second, putting a dedicated heart guard in that area means there can be no pad breaks there, which is a very big issue. You don't necessarily think about it, but we're talking no movement in almost half (if not more) of the chest region going down into the ribs. Third, the guard itself needs to end around the heart. Because every person is shaped differently, this requires a really large footprint. Also, the left side of the guard would need to touch down not on your front but on your side. Most chest protectors don't shoot right out once you get below the arm - the sides usually start closer to the bottom of your ribs. Those were the main issues I remember, I'll post others if I think of them

OldGoalie

08-07-2006, 03:34 PM

When I was working on the Supercrosse, I spent a lot of time trying to incorporate that kind of heart guard. I faced a few problems though. First, from a designers standpoint, it would make the chest protector asymmetrical, which is obviously a minor issue but still something to be considered. Second, putting a dedicated heart guard in that area means there can be no pad breaks there, which is a very big issue. You don't necessarily think about it, but we're talking no movement in almost half (if not more) of the chest region going down into the ribs. Third, the guard itself needs to end around the heart. Because every person is shaped differently, this requires a really large footprint. Also, the left side of the guard would need to touch down not on your front but on your side. Most chest protectors don't shoot right out once you get below the arm - the sides usually start closer to the bottom of your ribs. Those were the main issues I remember, I'll post others if I think of them

All good points...obviously not an easy task to develop something that doesn't restrict mobility, yet protects the right spot.

While designing the Supercrosse, were you aware of any R&D done for the Supercrosse (or other products) into technology that would limit or prevent CC?

jaw22

08-12-2006, 11:10 PM

Doubtful. I think the doctors doing this experiment know a lot more about more about the circumstances CC occurs under than anyone else here. I'm sure they did enough research to ensure they wouldn't be corrected by some kid on a message board.

So you suggest that they engineered a pig with the exact shape, density, and heart size/strength of a human body before attaching a CP to it? There's no way the results are valid unless the pig is human shaped with a human heart and the same bones protecting it's heart as the bones we have protecting our hearts.

BTlaxripper

08-12-2006, 11:21 PM

Moved to goalie forum.

bpercival

08-12-2006, 11:34 PM

Kind of sick with the whole animal cruelty test but, I use Warrior Players Club 6.0, and people say there bulky, but their, there for you when you need them.

OldGoalie

08-14-2006, 10:11 AM

So you suggest that they engineered a pig with the exact shape, density, and heart size/strength of a human body before attaching a CP to it? There's no way the results are valid unless the pig is human shaped with a human heart and the same bones protecting it's heart as the bones we have protecting our hearts.

Did you actually read the article? If you had, you'd have noticed this section:

"Our animal model of commotio cordis, out of necessity, is not identical to the human condition. For example, swine chest walls are more ovoid than humans; however, at the site of impact in both swine and humans, the precordial strike occurs perpendicular to the chest wall, minimizing the differences in the chest wall anatomy. Our experimental design used a 4 x 4-in material that was cut from the commercially available chest protector that was affixed over the swine precordium, thereby also minimizing the potential effects of different chest contours in humans and swine."

So, essentially, the pig model is in fact a very good approximation of the human model. Animal models are used all the time in medical science, for obvious reasons, i.e. it's the next best thing to sticking a human in a sling and firing lacrosse balls at his/her heart. Obviously it's not ideal for the animal, and it's sad to see animals sacrificed, but science only advances through sacrifice.

OldGoalie

08-14-2006, 10:13 AM

Kind of sick with the whole animal cruelty test but, I use Warrior Players Club 6.0, and people say there bulky, but their, there for you when you need them.

I hate to break it to you, but unless proven otherwise, your CP (as well as mine, the Glad) is no better at protecting CC than any other. I don't think anything has been shown to be effective at reducing the chances of CC substantially.