European Lacrosse: Rank Order

[Bobsch]

Since we don't have anything like a Champions League yet for European Lax (although Peter Mundy,ELF President, would like to get one going) and the World Games and European Championships include many players who never lived in the country for which they are playing, how would you rank order the Euopean lax countries in terms of skills and growth? For skills, don't include national team players who never played club lax in their country. So, for example, you can't count certain players at the World Games who never lived in their country, but you can include ones who started in their country and now play college lax in the US, for example.

Here are my choices/guesses (many are based on guesses, since I haven't seen clubs from each country play):

Skills:
1. England
2. Germany (although club quality varies greatly)
3. Czech Republic (best in box)
4. Sweden
5. Scotland
6. Finnland
7. Denmark
8. The Netherlands
9. Ireland
10 Wales
11. Italy
12. Austria
13. Latvia
Everyone else: Norway, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Switzerland
Too early to tell: Belgium, Bulgaria, Estonia, Hungary, Russia

Growth:
1. Germany
2. The Netherlands
3. Austria
4. Norway
5. Finnland

[LaxDman62]

Omg

Estonia has a lacrosse team. Im from there, thats sick!

[Bobsch]

Estonia is just starting out.

[chippie]

agree with most but:
sweden above scots?
ireland above wales?

[Bobsch]

It was a guess on those...I only saw one Scottish team play (in Berlin) and only saw Welsh teams play on video...Wales could easily be better than Ireland. The Swedes are quite good, though.

[chippie]

im only going by the fact that you said about not including over-seas players, then i would think scotland would be up there. Wales and Ireland very similar, depends who you get playing!

in my opinion! :nofear:

[Bobsch]

Good points...I wish we had a cup for club teams. I'd like to see group champions from the British Isles, Scandinavia plus the Baltic countries, Southeastern Europe (including the Czechs, Slovaks, and Hungarians), and Western Europe as groups. You'd probably get the best teams from England, Sweden, Czech Republic, and Germany in the final four.

[lax_pimp_47]

i agree with that but you would have to say it would be the mellor boys of the uk that would pull through to win it and burn every1 !! :flamed:

[PetervO]

I hope the same Bobsch. It will be great for the sport. And at the rate Lacrosse is growing now in Europe it will happen.

[Bobsch]

Yeah, when we had the Eurolax Convention, this was one of the things Peter Mundy was really hoping for. You could have regional tournaments or knockout systems, then a final four tournament, or something like it.

[Aboikos]

Good points...I wish we had a cup for club teams. I'd like to see group champions from the British Isles, Scandinavia plus the Baltic countries, Southeastern Europe (including the Czechs, Slovaks, and Hungarians), and Western Europe as groups. You'd probably get the best teams from England, Sweden, Czech Republic, and Germany in the final four.



Actually we played a tournament in Scandinavia one year ago (in copenhagen), called "Scandinavian Challenge" which had Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark participating. A northern championship of sorts. It was meant to be repeated every year, but with the world games this year it was decided to cancel it.

The final standing in the 2005 challenge:

1. Sweden (3-0)
2. Finland (2-1)
3. Denmark (1-2)
4. Norway (0-3)

Aboo

[Bobsch]

Yes, I know...Bergen represented Norway. I think that helped Peter Mundy's idea along. He'D like to have something like that in different regions, then have the winners meet. Who represented the other countries, by the way?

[TRITON]

( Long ) Ireland beat us at the worlds but we were playing a team full of Americans. Maybe it would be a different story if the actual Irish guys played.


It was a guess on those...I only saw one Scottish team play (in Berlin) and only saw Welsh teams play on video...Wales could easily be better than Ireland. The Swedes are quite good, though.

[Sour]

yup I agree with Triton ....convinced that wales would beat an irish ireland side

[Bobsch]

Yeah, they probably would

[Hackstall]

Skills:
1. England
2. Germany (although club quality varies greatly)
3. Czech Republic (best in box)
4. Sweden
5. Scotland
6. Finnland
7. Denmark
8. The Netherlands
9. Ireland
10 Wales
11. Italy
12. Austria
13. Latvia
Everyone else: Norway, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Switzerland
Too early to tell: Belgium, Bulgaria, Estonia, Hungary, Russia

From what I saw at the worlds, I would probably have Germany at the top and England below them. The Czechs are not better than Scotland. Denmark is not really that great and should be below The Netherlands, Ireland and Wales. The Netherlands had a pro NLL player who scored half of their goals (Jonas Derks) and they had two NCAA players from the states...one of whom played goal.

Here is my rankings based on what I saw at the worlds minus non-citizen players.

1. Germany
2. England
3. Scotland - even minus that Navy goalie they are still good
4. Sweden - never saw them play so I don't know if they are 3rd or 4th.
5. Finland
6. Czechs
7. Wales
8. Ireland - I don't know where they belong since they had so many Americans.
9. Netherlands
10. Denmark
11. Italy
12. Austria
13. Latvia - these guys were not good at all. I'd probably rank Spain ahead of them.

[Sour]

Yeah, they probably would

no probably about it!!



Germany above england?

despite england battering them 19-4

so by the same logic(?) england would be ranked above canada? :laugh:

[Bobsch]

Even though I played and coached in Germany for eight years, I'd keep England above Germany. In tournaments like the Berlin Open, the English teams did better on average than the German teams. They also have a better youth program. Only Aachen, Frankfurt, and Hamburg have youth teams (as of last June), but there are many youth programs in England. That said, England vs. Germany at the 2004 European Championships was very close. At least all but three of Germany's players actually live in Germany.

[Hackstall]

I didn't use logic. I saw what I saw and Germany just looked better to me. Maybe it was the fact that England played against much stiffer competition but....Germany had a good outing against the Iroquois (lost 14-6) which wasn't all that bad compared to Iroquois beating England (13-10). What's more, is that it seemed to me that Germany outplayed the Iroquois in that game, except they just couldn't finish. They missed the net probably four times as musch as the Iroquois had SOG. With one or two snipers or a few guys having "on" days, the outcome could have been different.

I didn't see the 19-4 game.

[rey_pelayo]

England beat Germany in this years tournament.

http://www.pointstreak.com/prostats/teamschedule.html?teamid=54142&seasonid=1285

[Bobsch]

Yeah, England won easily this year and in the first round of the 2004 European Championships (14 to 4). The finals were much closer in 2004, with England winning 7 to 6.

By the way, Germany does have some good defensemen. Chris Ehlgen, Andy Behles, and Wolf Greb all played defense on my old team (Wolf is now a player coach in Marburg). We also had three other national team players: Basti Trischler and John Mask (middies) and Greg Tily (attack). Six players also came from Aachen (2006 German Champions) and they are all pretty young, so Germany should improve by 2008. I think the next European Finals will be another great game between England and Germany.

[Hackstall]

My bad boys, my bad.

[bischov]

Actually Slovakia has developed really good lacrosse. They won the Austrian Open 2007.

[rey_pelayo]

Yeah Slovakia will be a good contender for the new arriving countries like Slovenia, Norway, Spain, France?, Switzerland and Austria. They will be great European Championship, I can't wait¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡

[rey_pelayo]

Here are my ramkings based also in what I`ve seen in last years Worlds and this years tournaments;

1. England
2. Germany
3. Scotland
4. Czech R.
5. Sweden
6. Ireland (It will depend on them bringing a whole team of americans or not)
7. Wales (they beat the Czechs at the worlds I know but still feel the Czechs are better team and their participation in the Box World Championships have certainly added tham some experience).
8. Finland
9. Netherlands ( these guys are probably the fastes growing county and the might be ranked higher).
10.Italy (same as the Irish, but it seems the will bring a whole teamof Italy born)
11.Slovakia
12. Spain
13. Denmark
14. Austria
15. Slovenia
16. France
17. Switzerland

I hope not missing anyone, whooww 17 countries that's Lacrosse growing in Europe¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡

[wolfenburg]

17. Switzerland??

I would place them higher than France. St. Gallen is comming up very quickly and so do the other Teams there.

[rey_pelayo]

sorry mate I haven't seen anything of neither of them, just guessing.

[Golle/Kris]

A few countries are missing from the list:

Bulgaria
Latvia
Norway

This could - best case scenario - mean 20 countries for the Euros 2008!!!

[Bobsch]

A few countries are missing from the list:

Bulgaria
Latvia
Norway

This could - best case scenario - mean 20 countries for the Euros 2008!!!

Norway will be there in 2008.

[LaxFinland]

Nice to see European lacrosse discussion here!

Can't wait for next summer and the Eurochamps at Lahti. We at Finland just had our tryouts for the Lahti games and to me it seems we have improved a lot since 2006 World games.

About growth, we had 2 teams in 2005, 4 in 2006 and this year we have 7. Hope we can keep the good pace up. We also have a youth program and U-19 team competing in next years world games.

[CHLaxMaster]

I agree with wolfenburg! I'm from Switzerland and although there aren't that much teams in switzerland at the mo' the level is pretty good :)

[Guardian]

lets go GERMANY

[CelticLaxer]

On a slightly different topic, where do the European teams rate in terms of box? I know it's big in the Czech Republic, they play about as much box as field in Ireland, and Scotland always benefits from some good Scottish-Canadians. Who else plays any significant amount of box & how do the various countries stack up?

[wolfenburg]

In Germany we don't have real box Lacrosse. There are only some winter turnaments in gyms, but no crosscheks.

Sometimes german teams travel to the Czech Republik to play at a turnament there and i think they can play with them put have not the experiance.

[SPL-Kåberg]

My team wants to play more box, we love box lacrosse. We´re going to Gothenburg in 9th of februari and then 2-4 of march its an box lacrosse tournament in stockholm, sweden..

We wanna have more Box Lacrosse in Europe

Cheers// Tommy Kåberg
Skoghall Pirates Lacrosse
www.skoghallpirates.se

[lukeoz]

it would make a lot of sense for box lacrosse to grow in those european countries where ice hockey is popular, and hopefully it would be easy to bring in those hockey players to play lacrosse in the summer

[Bobsch]

We've had a couple of indoor (not really box) and box tournaments in Norway. There's going to be an indoor tournament in Oslo the 5th of January.

[wolfenburg]

indoor Lacrosse has the advantage, that it is played 5 vs. 5 so it is much easier to start a team.

maybe we should think about an winter league ....

[laxxman]

A European Champions League or Cup is a non starter as the costs would be prohibative for the sport. It is too small to attract commercial sponsors and without outside funds the costs would fall on the players.

[DonnieUtah]

One thing to note for this year is that the Irish National team (specifically for the Euros) will be made up of 50% or more of actual Irish players (ones who actually live here in Ireland). The quality of players developing here has been tremendous. Irish GAA sports (specifically Hurling) provide a prime template for players, and we're finding that the transfer of experience from one sport to another is amazingly easy of these young guys.

As an example, look at the World Indoor Games this year, where we brought a large contingent of players who where very new to Box, many of whom were under 20 years old! I think that these young guys did extremely well considering. The spark is definitely there and the sport is growing leaps and bounds at the moment. Look for a much stronger force coming out of Ire in the next few years.

[Elaxerata]

Damnnn Ireland is in ninth? I thought theyd be up in the top 5... Didn't they win the cup a few years back, against canada?

[Silverhighlord]

In my opinion the National Team of England it's in the first place of the rank. The Orange Machine(Netherlands) maybe it's one of the best teams playing lacrosse nowadays, the same about Germany. Portugal it's not on that rank..but in the future were going to appear there..I hope!=)

[Bobsch]

Usually, England and Germany place one and two. Germany won in 2001, but England usually wins. In the last European Championshipin 2004, England narrowly beat Germany. This year, there will probably be 17 teams, with eight teams (including Norway) playing in the Championships for the first time.

[wolfenburg]

It will be interesting to see weather Germany is closer to England.

If my information is correct the 2001 German Team was a bit less German then the nower Teams are, soo what we will see at the Euro is a true German Team...

[Bobsch]

It will be interesting to see weather Germany is closer to England.

If my information is correct the 2001 German Team was a bit less German then the nower Teams are, soo what we will see at the Euro is a true German Team...

Yes, the 2001 team wasn't as German as the ones since 2002, but German lax has improved tremendously.

[CHLaxMaster]

I wanna play EC too =( lol

[PiotreX]

Hi there! I'm from Warsaw, Poland, and I have an announcement :)
Poland has three teams at the moment and at least four more are trying to gather equipment and start training. I think we'll be ready for Euro 2012 :D

Wish us luck :) Help us out if you can :)

[BredaBeavers]

I'm from the netherlands, and the growth here is really big. Currently we have 11 clubs, and we're now starting up 4 (i'm starting up one) and we have the interest from 2 other cities.
So the netherlands should also become stronger!

[Silverhighlord]

I'm trying to start the first team of Lacrosse in Portugal..at this moment we've some material..I think we're looking good at this moment. I wish good luck to the new teams..

[PiotreX]

I'm trying to start the first team of Lacrosse in Portugal..at this moment we've some material..I think we're looking good at this moment. I wish good luck to the new teams..

Good luck to you too! We have no materials and no equipment... it sux! :D

[Johan99_SPL]

I think that there is going to bee sweden, germeny, england and scotland or Ireland in the finals of em-2008. What do you gys think??=)

I am going to play goalie for the swedish select team and I hope that there is going to bee good resistance from the highest rank teams=)

Best Regards
Johan

[rey_pelayo]

I've never seen Sweden play since I wasn't at the last Euros in Czech R and Sweden wasn't at the last Worlds in Canada, but I think Czech R should be take in to account for the top 4 and I'm not so sure about Ireland if they have a team with no Americans.
Also, Does anyboby know anythink about the new teams, Austria, Slovakia, France, Switzerland Norway and Slovenia? How strong will they be?

[SPL-Kåberg]

I think that there is going to bee sweden, germeny, england and scotland or Ireland in the finals of em-2008. What do you gys think??=)

I am going to play goalie for the swedish select team and I hope that there is going to bee good resistance from the highest rank teams=)

Best Regards
Johan

I think Czech, GB, Germany and 3 teams that i don´t know who will go on.. it´s Sweden, Scotland and NL

[wolfenburg]

Well Swizerland plays in our league and we often play against Teams from Austria (mainly Viena) and they are not as strong as the top 3 Teams in the Bundesliga Süd. Austria vs. Swizerland would be an interesting game.

[Georg #8]

Well Swizerland plays in our league and we often play against Teams from Austria (mainly Viena) and they are not as strong as the top 3 Teams in the Bundesliga Süd. Austria vs. Swizerland would be an interesting game.

That´s probably right. Austria will participate in Berlin, but unluckily we can´t field our best team, but we met in Passau last year and will meet again this year .

And a game against the swiss guys is always hard and thrilling :)

[rey_pelayo]

What was the score in Passau?

[Georg #8]

I think it was a game with only few goals, maybe like 2:0 or so (Stuttgart won). But I can´t remember that exactly.

[wolfenburg]

ohh yes. Passau will be nice. Hope that thios year I can come. Last year i missed the win.

[shanejohn]

I'm not so sure about Ireland if they have a team with no Americans.


This year for the Euros Ireland have a changed team from the worlds. The team now has to have at least 50% Irish based players. It will most likely be a weaker side than was seen at the World games in 2006 but definitly there to put up a good fight.

Its great to see people interested in the tounement really looking forward to it!!!

[FinnLacrosse26]

Whatever happened to Sweden? Didnt they have like a full team all ready for the World Championships in 2006? Where did they go?

[Sour]

couldnt afford the trip probably

[Bobsch]

Whatever happened to Sweden? Didnt they have like a full team all ready for the World Championships in 2006? Where did they go?

One of the Swedes can probably give a better answer, but I heard they wanted to save the money and concentrate on the European Championships.

[SPL-Kåberg]

Whatever happened to Sweden? Didnt they have like a full team all ready for the World Championships in 2006? Where did they go?

It was to expensive for the team to go to canada, think the cost for each player would be around 3000$

[bluedevil49]

It was to expensive for the team to go to canada, think the cost for each player would be around 3000$
$3000 sounds fantastic, if your an Aussie. I think our guys in 2006 paid around 5-7k US$ and most of us from the indoor team in 2007 paid around US$5000.

It's usually quite expensive for us as airfares to North America or Europe are around $2500-$3500.

Do you know what the Swedish team paid in 2002 to play in Australia?

[eurolax]

Is there a link that shows the participating teams for the Euro's in Lahiti this summer. Also, if you have any links to the team rosters that would be greatly appreciated.

Below is the Men's Dutch Roster:

Men’s Team
General Manager:
John Bergsma

Coach:
Guy van Arsdale

Assistant coach Defence:
MacGregor Stockdale

Coach Trainee:
Richard Bos

Roster:

Attack:
Arttu Sesselar
Lance Zimmerman

Midfielders:
Rutger van Bennekum
Auke Dijkstra
Perijn Hoefsloot
Nick Mueller
Louie Prins
Owen Zachariasse
Aaron van der Horst
Graham Bergsma
Adam Death
Pete Schelvis

LSM:
Sean Tyson

Defense:
Gerard Helminck
Ben van Ooijen
Stefan van de Ven
Erik Vogels
Jamey van Opstal
Kyle Hofstaedter

Goalkeeper:
Jeroen Hartman
Grant Zimmerman

Here is the link to their website: http://dutchlacrosse.wordpress.com/

[Bobsch]

Try www.lacrosse.fi for the Euros, but there isn't much news up yet

[MDlaxer 303]

haha finland...
my coach, Risto Worthington, actually plays attack for their national team along with coaching their u-19 team.

i swear to god, he's got one of the best shots i've ever seen.
i'd put finland up fairly high on that list
those scandinavians know how play

[d.k. schrute]

Below is the Men's Dutch Roster:

Men’s Team
General Manager:
John Bergsma

Coach:
Guy van Arsdale

Assistant coach Defence:
MacGregor Stockdale

Coach Trainee:
Richard Bos

Roster:

Attack:
Arttu Sesselar
Lance Zimmerman

Midfielders:
Rutger van Bennekum
Auke Dijkstra
Perijn Hoefsloot
Nick Mueller
Louie Prins
Owen Zachariasse
Aaron van der Horst
Graham Bergsma
Adam Death
Pete Schelvis

LSM:
Sean Tyson

Defense:
Gerard Helminck
Ben van Ooijen
Stefan van de Ven
Erik Vogels
Jamey van Opstal
Kyle Hofstaedter

Goalkeeper:
Jeroen Hartman
Grant Zimmerman

Here is the link to their website: http://dutchlacrosse.wordpress.com/


Seems like The Netherlands only have 8 North American players out of the 21 man roster. Does anyone know if they are going to add any more players? (at worlds they had 10 out of 24-man roster)

Im guessing Lance and Grant are brothers and by looking at his stats, he seems to be a huge pick-up. It seems that they lost Jonas Derks though. Anybody know anything about the other players (Dutch or N. American)?

I just checked out their wiki off of their website
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_national_lacrosse_team

[eurolax]

Doing some Google searches I learned this:

The Coach is Guy Van Arsdale, who is the assistant at Penn State.
Grant Zimmerman plays at UNC (DI)
Lance Zimmerman played at UNC (DI)
Graham Bergsma plays at Fairfield (DI)
Kyle Hofstaedter plays at St. Joseph (DI)
Owen Zaccharias played at Adelphi (DIII)
Jamey Van Opstal plays at Haverford (DIII)

This looks to be a solid core of North American Dutch players with a proven Division I coach. The Native Dutch players have most likely improved since the worlds in '06. They should be able to do some damage in the European Championships and maybe even win their division.