is muscle specific work-out's necasarry?

[TBAN1418]

So I lift about 4-5 times a week. Usually about 1.5 hours at a time, one day is back and bi's, one day is shoulders and back, one day is chest and tri's, one day is legs, and if I do a fifth day it's usually legs. I feel like I haven't had too many gains by lifting like this. I do my sets on bench at 100 and it has yet to get any easier. Should I maybe start going 3 days a week and just doing the excersizes I want to be able to lift more in?

[Riot]

I would suggest going less. I've been lifting 1-3 times a week for a couple of weeks and I've seen significant gains in basically everything I've been doing. Maybe it's just because I'm a beginner, because I've heard gains are easier when you first start out.

[bigDman]

stay away from bodypart splits

[raykessler]

dont wait for things to get "easier" when youv been lifting at one weight for a while just up it by 5 or 10 pounds, itl start out real hard, but thats how iv found is the best way to up weight. also howr you lifting for 1.5 hours? thats a long time, i dont ever think iv lifted for more then an hour. it also might be that youv been lifting for too long, how long have you kept this schedual up, mabie take a week or two off and try to fully recover.

[Lax.53]

diet is a big part too, you eating lots of protein?

[Mr. Raw]

So I lift about 4-5 times a week. Usually about 1.5 hours at a time, one day is back and bi's, one day is shoulders and back, one day is chest and tri's, one day is legs, and if I do a fifth day it's usually legs. I feel like I haven't had too many gains by lifting like this. I do my sets on bench at 100 and it has yet to get any easier. Should I maybe start going 3 days a week and just doing the excersizes I want to be able to lift more in?


that has got to be the worst workout program/schedual that i have ever heard. if you are going to work out 5 days a week (lets say weekdays) do upper body one day (mon, wed, fri) and lower the other days (tues, thurs, and if you want saturday). and another thing that you are doing completely wrong is that you are NOT excersizing your opposite muscles properly. if i were to do bench, then i would need to do row (chest is opposite of back), if i want to work my triceps then i would also do biceps, and if i do shoulder/military press i have to do pulldowns for my lats. the same goes with legs. you also should do double jointed exercises first in your workout (ie, bench press, and leg press). diet is also crucial, eat carbs before you workout/lift and protein after and stay away from fatty/ greasy foods. if you want to work out 3 days a week then i would say lift mon wed fri and run (yes run) on tues and thurs. and when you lift do all of your lifting (upper and lower body) but make sure you do upper body before lower body, or visa versa. good luck, now go get buff.

[franks2089]

Stay away from 1 part per day splits. If you are going to do a split do upper/lower or push/pull.

[TBAN1418]

Okay, I take in almost a gram per pound of body weight when it comes to protein. Today is my lower body day, but next time I go, I'll do biceps/triceps? and then one day chest/back, and then shoulders/ what?

[franks2089]

Okay, I take in almost a gram per pound of body weight when it comes to protein. Today is my lower body day, but next time I go, I'll do biceps/triceps? and then one day chest/back, and then shoulders/ what?
Dont do split routines at all.

Focus your routine around these:
Bench
Squat
Deadlifts
Military press
Pullups
Bent over Rows
Dips

[Mr. Raw]

Okay, I take in almost a gram per pound of body weight when it comes to protein. Today is my lower body day, but next time I go, I'll do biceps/triceps? and then one day chest/back, and then shoulders/ what?

just do lower body one day and all those upper body lifts that u just named in one day also. dont split them up into multiple days and do only 2 lifts a day... not good.

[Riot]

excersizing your opposite muscles properly. if i were to do bench, then i would need to do row (chest is opposite of back), if i want to work my triceps then i would also do biceps, and if i do shoulder/military press i have to do pulldowns for my lats. the same goes with legs.
I thought it was good to do like:
Chest and triceps on one day, and back and biceps on the other day. Guess not?

[navyboy28]

4-5 works just fine but do faster rotations. 1- legs, 2- arms/chest, 3- shoulders/back, 4- legs, 5- arms/chest then next week start with shoulders/back.

[BuckWyld]

stay away from bodypart splits

why? I do body part splits, they work well for alot of people. So back it up

[GlaxR]

i dont know i read this article on working out your rotator cuff by doin pull ups and it seems like it actually seems like it helps

p.s also bench press push ups all those seem to give you better shot

[franks2089]

why? I do body part splits, they work well for alot of people. So back it up
Because you aren't growing as fast when doing splits. Plus the idea behind the split routine is that you let each muscle fully recover before you work it again. It can take a muscle 2 weeks or more to fully recover, this is why you work hard for 4-6 weeks then have a back off week.

[shiftylax]

I've been BuckWyld in person.

He's bigger than all of you.

He could probably eat you and he also runs a gym. His advice is sound.

There is something to be said for isolation work, but it depends on what you ultimate goals are. Also, just lifitng for 1.5 hours is a bit extraneous. If you lower your break times between sets and plow thorugh your workouts with some intensity you should see better gains in less time in the gym. Try to go for an hour, max.

[Petem0ss]

Stay away from 1 part per day splits. If you are going to do a split do upper/lower or push/pull.

Thank you, another post in favor of push/pull in this case where the original poster has plateaued a little with his current split workout.

[BuckWyld]

What exactly do you mean by a push/pull workout? How is Back & Bi/Chest & tri not push/pull?

[bigDman]

Here is my reasoning for staying away from body part splits.

1)Body-part splits separate the muscles' appearance from their function. Training according to function makes more sense for athletes, since you're training the specific movement patterns you use in sports. The best example is a squat to help you achieve a better vertical jump and more lower-body power.

The converse is doing entire workouts focused on non-functional movements, like curls and triceps extensions. It's hard to think of any way that helps you become a better athlete.

2)Muscles weren't designed to function in isolation, so any exercise that requires your whole body to work as a unit is going to be more effective for muscle growth

[BuckWyld]

bigDman - I don't understand what you are getting at. How do you do your workouts? Do you just do everything on the same day?


Body-part splits separate the muscles' appearance from their function.


what does that even mean? All body-part splits? appearance of what?


The best example is a squat to help you achieve a better vertical jump and more lower-body power.


I do squats, it works perfectly well with body part splits, I think you may have to do a better job explaining yourself


The converse is doing entire workouts focused on non-functional movements, like curls and triceps extensions. It's hard to think of any way that helps you become a better athlete.


non-functional? curls and tricep extensions are perfectly functional they help you make your biceps and triceps stronger. Should isolation exercises make up the bulk of your workout? No, but that does not make them non-functional. The proper use of isolation exercises also helps you use heavier weight on your compound motions.

Nobody is saying that isolation exercises are better than compound exercises, but that does not mean that they don't have their place in a good workout. Unless you do full body workouts, you have to divide the workouts up some how, and bodypart splits are a pretty good way to do it that avoids overtraining some muscles.

[bigDman]

bigDman - I don't understand what you are getting at. How do you do your workouts? Do you just do everything on the same day?
I do upper/lower body


what does that even mean? All body-part splits? appearance of what?
What I was trying to say body-part splits tend to have more isolation work. Iso work is more to build up a certain muscle for looks. Muscles are meant to work together and should be trained to work together. So when body part splits are used your avoiding working all the muscles as one. Lets look at some lifts I am a big fan of. The snatch, deadlift, Good mornings, pull through, Push press, Clean and Jerk...etc.... Were do these compound movements fit into a body part split


I do squats, it works perfectly well with body part splits, I think you may have to do a better job explaining yourself
Ehh squats wasn't a good example. Should have used something like the Snatch


non-functional? curls and tricep extensions are perfectly functional they help you make your biceps and triceps stronger. Should isolation exercises make up the bulk of your workout? No, but that does not make them non-functional. The proper use of isolation exercises also helps you use heavier weight on your compound motions.
Curls and Tricep extensions are not what I like to think as good exercise selection. Besides curls being overdone and tricep extensions being killer on the elbow when do you use just triceps in an athletic even or just biceps

Nobody is saying that isolation exercises are better than compound exercises, but that does not mean that they don't have their place in a good workout. Unless you do full body workouts, you have to divide the workouts up some how, and bodypart splits are a pretty good way to do it that avoids overstraining some muscles.
[b]When doing body part splits there tends to be more isolation exercises then compound movements.

When training for performance, you're trying to make the body more efficient as a whole, as a unit. To do so, you should focus on developing movement patterns and energy systems, not individual muscles.


I might have rambled on and not answer your questions... If so just ask more questions. I’m always up for a nice friendly debate :-P

Here are some more points

1) Athletes Spend more time doing other physical activity outside of the gym (sport practices, plyo sessions, speed/agility work, GPP, etc.), therefore cannot spend as much time in the gym. That’s why I think full body or lower/upper body splits give you more bang for the buck

2) Legs. Most athletes need more legwork. With body part splits you end up working your legs 1 time forever 2-4 times you work upper body. I think Legs should be worked just as much as upper body if not more.

3)the endocrine response. According to modern sports science, the more muscle mass one uses in a training session, the greater the endocrine response; in other words, the more hormones that your body will release in response to your training.

4) bone and joint strength. Again, modern sports science tells us that the bones in the body are strengthened best when subjected to a heavy load. This is where the big, multi-joint lifts come in, lifts like squats, deadlifts, cleans-and-jerks, snatches, standing presses, etc.

I guess all of this relates to being able to do more compound movments in less time using full body or upper/lower body splits

Now things that every one needs are consistency, effort and progression. No workout of any kind will work without those 3 keys.

[TBAN1418]

so I feel if i do everything in one day I wont do every excersize I want, I can't even do it if I do upper/lower days. But i've done some combining into a 5 day gym schedule. Tell me what you think

Day 1&3
Concentration Curls
Standard Curls
Bench Press
Tricep Extensions
Chin-ups
Wrist rollers
Push-Ups
Dips
Fly's

Day 2 & 4
Military press (Dumb bell and bar bells)
Pull downs
Bent over barbell rows
seated row
Front raises
Lateral raises
standing fly's
Pull-Ups

Day 5: My leg routine
Calf raises
Squats
Leg press's
quad extenstions
Hamstring extensions
(probably some other stuff I cant think of)

So anywyas I really want to get stronger, and Im willing to work hard for it, that's why I've been working this hard.

[bigDman]

so I feel if i do everything in one day I wont do every excersize I want, I can't even do it if I do upper/lower days. But i've done some combining into a 5 day gym schedule. Tell me what you think

Day 1&3
Concentration Curls isolation
Standard Curls isolation
Bench Press compound
Tricep Extensions isolation
Chin-ups compound
Wrist rollers isolation
Push-Ups compound
Dips compound
Fly's isolation
Ratio Compund to isolation 4:5
Nine exersizes in one day good luck

Day 2 & 4
Military press (Dumb bell and bar bells) compound
Pull downs isolation
Bent over barbell rows compound
seated row compound
Front raises isolation
Lateral raises isolation
standing fly's isolation
Pull-Ups compound
Ratio Compund to isolation 4:4
Eight exersizes in one day good luck

Day 5: My leg routine
Calf raises isolation
Squats compound
Leg press's compound
quad extenstions isolation
Hamstring extensions isolation
(probably some other stuff I cant think of)
Ratio compound to isolation 2:3
Leg curls, quad extensions and leg presses suck. most athletes are quad dominate and need to work on their hammies and glutes. Pluss they are hard on the knees. There are better choices
So anywyas I really want to get stronger, and Im willing to work hard for it, that's why I've been working this hard.

My main argument for full body and upper/lower body splits were they forced you to use less isolation movments and they made you work legs more neither of which you did

[TBAN1418]

Just got back from my first set of excersizes, went pretty well actually, took me like an hour and 15 min's. I'll see how I feel in the morning...

[BuckWyld]

double post

[BuckWyld]

bigDman - I typed up a big reply and then stupidly lost it, I will attempt to recreate it later.


TBAN - Your workout needs to be fixed up, your splits are illogical, you should be starting your workouts with the largest muscle groups (hint not your biceps or calfs) and you should probably be doing your compound exercises before your iso exercises.

[laxCCM]

BigDman could u please enlighten me on some compound lifts? Like what is a snatch and which parts of the body does it work?

[Petem0ss]

BuckWyld, I see that term thrown around a lot. I know what a true push/pull workout is and am not a fan of it but I want to see what some of the people who are advocates of it THINK it is and then I'll validate it.

Perhaps we're dealing in semantics here, but when I say push-pull...alternating between say a flat bench press (push) & some kind of rowing movement with your hands out in front of you (pull). This is an example of what I'm thinking of, I like it because it's all multiple-joint exercises.

push/pull example, w/pics (http://www.houstontexans.com/fitness/news_detail.php?PRKey=1330)

Following up Chest w/tri's is push-push and Back w/bi's are pull-pull.

I'll push/pull for 8-10 weeks before doing a different routine, but I usually end up coming back to it 2-3 times a year. It works for me as a good change of pace. I'm getting older, so at times the push/pull is a little rough on my tendons, it just depends.

I'm not down on splits at all but it sounds like the orignial poster has plateaued, if he's never done push/pull, that might jump-start him a little. There are a number of right answers here.

[BuckWyld]

Perhaps we're dealing in semantics here, but when I say push-pull...alternating between say a flat bench press (push) & some kind of rowing movement with your hands out in front of you (pull). This is an example of what I'm thinking of, I like it because it's all multiple-joint exercises.

push/pull example, w/pics (http://www.houstontexans.com/fitness/news_detail.php?PRKey=1330)

Following up Chest w/tri's is push-push and Back w/bi's are pull-pull.

I'll push/pull for 8-10 weeks before doing a different routine, but I usually end up coming back to it 2-3 times a year. It works for me as a good change of pace. I'm getting older, so at times the push/pull is a little rough on my tendons, it just depends.

I'm not down on splits at all but it sounds like the orignial poster has plateaued, if he's never done push/pull, that might jump-start him a little. There are a number of right answers here.

See I would call that super-setting. Anyway part of the problem in the OP is that his splits are messed up,


sually about 1.5 hours at a time, one day is back and bi's, one day is shoulders and back, one day is chest and tri's, one day is legs, and if I do a fifth day it's usually legs.


so says he is doing
2 back workouts
1 chest workout
1 shoulder workout
1 bi
1 tri
1 or 2 legs

that along with the fact that he goes "4 or 5 days a week" I am going to guess that he doesnt really know what to do and does not get to the gym regularly. I don't think this is a plateau, I see a teenager who shows up at the gym sometimes does and random exercises, then wonders why it doesnt work. Judging by most of the teens in my gym he probably spends most of the 1.5 hours talking with the crew of 15 that he shows up at the gym with standing around and getting in the way of people who are actually trying to workout.

[TBAN1418]

Well i'll take that comment as an insult, but seeing that im actually trying to get help here I will simply correct you on what you said, then carry on instead of going at it with you. I have been going the past 2 months religiously, at least 4 days a week, and no more then 5 days. my "1.5" hours is not spent talking with my "crew of 15". I lift by myself, or with 1 other person on chest days so I can get a spotter on bench. So no ofensse, but don't make stupid judgements like that about people you don't even know.

So I'm going to try and go every other day now, and how many excersizes you think I should do a day, i'll try and condense it into a upper/lower routine. I was thinking something like, do a few compound excersize, and one isolation for each muscle that I work.

So maybe my upper routine could be
Military press
Tricep pull downs
standing flyes
Standard bicep curl
Lat pull down
Bent over bar bell rows
seated flys
push-ups
dips

[bigDman]

I aim for 15-25 sets a workout. I cycle voulme so it depends. I never do much more then 30 sets in a workout and thats on very high voulme days