4 x 4 lacrosse

[tastycakes]

http://www.insidelacrosse.com/page.cfm?pagerid=2&news=fdetail&storyid=140980

I would stop watching the NLL if this were to happen. Yes I realize what the NLL offers isn't a pure form of boxla, but 4 x 4, come on, this would be gay. This is another lame attempt by the NLL to make the game more appealing for American players who are pussies that don't want to get hit. The leagues issue isn't, do people not like the product, because I know that any new of first time fan usually falls in love with the sport, their issue is getting this to a mainstream audience who hasn't even had the chance to watch 5 x 5, so they wouldn't care about this 4 x 4 crap. In fact, they are used to 5 x 5 with hockey and bball, and would probably wonder what the hell is up with 4 x 4 on those huge as boxla floors.

[RockStar]

I heard this rumour somewhere else. I agree that it's a silly idea.

Couple thoughts:

-4-on-4 play takes 20% fewer runners than 5-on-5.......are they looking to shrink rosters to make sure there's spare talent for a rapid expansion wave?

-4-on-4 will favour speed more than grit....are they looking to make NLL box more like a track meet to suit speedy American middie types?

[roycegracie47]

At least it's only an experiemnt for one half of the game. Hopefully the NLL will decide it's not fit fot the regular season.

I never thought 5 on 5 wasn't fast enough since tasty is right, we get the same 5 on 5 on Hockey and Bball with a good mix of speed and clock management plays. 4 0n 4 will make it harder to set plays to manage time in favor of running up oneside, attempting a quick score and then running back as the other team tries (maybe I'm generalizing too much).

While this will definately favor those who grew up playing as transition midfielders, it leaves the defense-only and offense-only guys at a disadvantage in trying to get them on/off the floor if the experiment is trying to turn this into pinball (again, at least I think so, or am I generalizing again...)

[tastycakes]

Good points Royce and Rockstar. I think they actually tried a bit of 4 aside last preseason as well, so this isn't exactly a new thing like the article claims. I'm like 99% sure some games used this dumb theory last year, so not sure why they are pushing it again.

Also, Royce, take it you're a ufc fan? Who you got this weekend in the big ones? Would love to see GSP and Monsoon take both title fights.

[roycegracie47]

I don't see it lasting past the experiment. I'm just glad it'll only muck up one half of the game while they try it out again.

As for this weekend. I'd like to see GSP dethrone Hughes, though I'm undecided on the Monsoon fight. It also comes down to finding a place near me that's broadcasting it.

[tastycakes]

I just pay the $40 usually. Can't stand going to bars and listening to drunk idiots who have no idea what is going on, booing at the ground stuff and just being stupid. I'd rather enjoy it with the boys at home and dish the cash then deal with morons all night. Can't stand Sylvia, hope Monsoon can eat his fists long enough to get it to the ground and hopefully submit him. Ok, sorry, back to the subject of the thread...

[dougm]

american born raised on 5x5....
THERE IS NO F'N WAY THIS MAKES SENSE
BOOOOO
THUMBS DOWN
FORGET ABOUT IT

for me, box, nll or mill, is about players FIGHTING for open space. if you take away that part of the game, indoor soccer would be tougher. heck, the fann cup would be tougher.
some how gary gait didn't need all that free space.

BAD BAD BAD IDEA!

why tamper with perfection?

[Pitibear]

A 4v4 game would definetly be a different game.

...not necessarily better or worse, but not certainly the same as 5v5.

If the intent is to try to create a new game, then okey, dokey...

..smaller floors, elimination of direct body contact, eliminatin of body check hitting?

All is okay, but it isn't "the same game, just faster for more excitement." It changes everything, makes it a new game.

Hockey is doing this right now. Inline has 4v4, and it's a very good game, but it is not the 5v5 ice game at all. Ice is having a heckuva time trying to get all stick contact out of the game this year, causing a tremendous disparity in officiating around the country and between levels of play.

Not sure the NLL, or any level of lacrosse needs this...anybody seen any published notice of what they're tryin' to do with this?

[dougm]

-4-on-4 will favour speed more than grit....are they looking to make NLL box more like a track meet to suit speedy American middie types?

american fan that would have serious reservations about spending my money on wussie lax. somehow, my $2-3,000 paid over the years for tickets, parking, souveniers etc. seemed like a good deal for me. you want to lose me for kiddie lax? i can save my $25 for a free game at the local park.

f - i feel like a box purist but damn it, this idea of 4x4 is far more disruptive than the mll shenanigans which thry are finally trying to get rid of.

[RockStar]

american fan that would have serious reservations about spending my money on wussie lax.......
4-on4 will certainly be far less violent, and for a guy like me that actually prefers the uglier, dirtier brand of box played in Ontario, I can't see that I'll like it better than current NLL.

I made my point about track meet lacrosse because of common complaints in this forum - that the NLL either can't attract US Born players, or doesn't give them a fair chance. By creating more space, the "feel" and flow might be closer to what American players are used to.

One thing that no one else has touched - If they do go 4v4, will they actually allow a team to play shorthanded by two men...........OUCH!!

[#15Roadies]

OK I kept an open mind while reading the article and I can honestly say what a steaming pile of crap. And it is that kind of crap that will keep me from bothering with the NLL and parting with my hard earned entertainment dollars for a watered down, cat-like form of indoor lacrosse. I would rather save up and go to Rochesta or Syracuse and watch a MLL or College field game than some form of sucky goal-fest. Hey, I know, keep it 5v5 and make the nets larger, say, 8' X 8' ...or more. Sheesh. :hot:

If they want to impress TV (American) audiences why not use their BRAINS instead of trying to much with the game to suit some guy who couldn't care less. Spend more time on PR, grassroots PR, starting local leagues and teaching kids how to play than any "competition committee." I mean, how much parity do you want?

The problem is, here comes that ugly discussion of O/D again, is that there aren't enough smart coaches or thinking athletes that can put together a system to beat the O/D and that is the real shame. Instead of studying ways to make things more exciting for the marginal fan, why not STUDY game tapes of teams and try to break down the O/D - without resorting to mucking with the rules, mucking with the number of players or mucking with the game. If you can't do that, then I suggest the wrong people are running the show.

Hey, here's an idea for the competition committee - give them soft vinyl balls, a hard plastic wicker-ball stick, and play on a basketball court with hugh nets. Rename the league to the NIL (National Intercrosse League) because NIL is what they will get outta me.

And when I see 4v4 in the Shwa on December 1st, I will be the first to boo.

[Stonewall35]

I only like the idea of 4 on 4 if each team is serving a penalty.

I see the point that it opens up extra space for offensive-minded players, but it also takes away from the defensive game. The extra space means that players have to be in better shape to play on both ends of the floor.

To see the game go 4 on 4 throughout would be like watching a track meet in the floor. IMHO, a goalie's GAA will likely be around 17 or higher. I'd rather see a good defensive 8-6 game than a sloppy 20-18 game anyday. This way, I can appreciate a good defensive game and the goals actually mean something more.

[titans 43]

ya it's a bad idea, games would be liek 30-28 and stuff it wouldn't be good, and it ruins all of the traditional box we have coem to play and live iwht and enjoy. If they're trying to make lacrosse a mainstream sport they should jsut keep doign what they're doign, the numbers have been goign up, they jsut have to be patient

[RockStar]

......... If they want to impress TV (American) audiences why not use their BRAINS instead of trying to much with the game to suit some guy who couldn't care less.........

Bingo!

It's really not the current rules of the game that's holding it back from being mainstream! (If anything could be faulted, it would be the seeming inability of the NLL to get their product presented regularly on mainstream cable TV at a decent hour.)

If they were going to frig with anything to make it more appealing to the mainstream, they should take a long hard listen to the cheezy hair-metal and assorted KOяNY nu-metal that's blared non-stop at concert volume during games.

[laxcanada]

I'm with tasty, I would stop watching if they do this
Yes, the games may have more goals and a higher game speed but I feel that would only take away from the experience of watching a good game of NLL lacrosse.
Like stonewall said, 4 on 4 is good if both teams are serving penalties, not for even strength. If you take one man from each team, you take away too much for higher scores and faster pace to make up for. As far as I'm concerned, the game's perfect, no need to tinker with anything. Shot clock, music all the time, big hits, big goals, I don't see any element that needs to be altered. Titan says it best, if we want lacrosse to go more mainstream, we should leave it as it is. People who like it like it, people who don't like it don't like it. We can't please everyone. When you try to make one group happy, you'll end up makeing the other one angry.
So, leave it as it is.

[dougm]

anyone remember the catcalls on the boards when the express litup the roughnecks for like 30-goals back in the 2002 opener. ok it was a big expansion year and starting derek collins may not had been the brightest move but the common complaint among us was how boring that game must had been. i cannot recall anyone who lives and dies by the nll applauding that scoreline. cheapie goals cheapen the entertainment value. funny thing is that any field player unwilling to absorb the punishment to play in the nll should just spend their post college years playing for club instead.
the post mill era had alot of too much defense - those albany v toronto games barely got above 20-goals - where the mugging, holding, whacked goalie equipment drew the ire from most of us. the rules committee imho did a pretty good job of opening the game by increasing the goal slightly and coming down on the holding calls and checking from behind. its still a tough sport, and it makes no sense taking the toughness out of it as a form affirmative action for field players. you want to crackdown on x-checks to the chin - nobody is arguing against that as we have had some big named players miss out due to concussions like tom ryan, casey zaph and jay jalbert. but getting flattened by a mean nasty shoulder check or good x-check between the shoulders but below the neck is in the context of what this sport is. what made marecheck's over the shoulders extra special was his ability to do it w/ defenders draped on top of him shooting at such a small goal against a heavily padded goalie - that's not showboating, that finding an effective to get a shot on your offhand and hide it as well by using the defender as a screen. an over the shoulder w/ no close defense would look more like hot dogging than skill and would draw jeers even from the home crowd.

[#15Roadies]

It seems to me that this latest, greatest "experiment" is another feeble attempt at the "silver bullet" solution to the NLL's problem: minor league semi-pro. Lookit - they had the All-Star & Final on NBC, what happened to that? They have had TV contracts with carriers all over the place - what happened to that? They talked about an NLL2 - what happened to that? There were rumours of an NLL field league - what happened to that? They have had franchises all over the Eastern seaboard - what happened to that?

The problem with "silver bullet" attitudes is that once they fail, as they often have in the NLL, they make the league look even more bush. And I can tell you that going 4X4 not only makes the league look bush, it makes it look like a beer-league solution to when not enough guys show up to go 5 on.

What is stopping them from going 3X3 once the coaches realize how to PREVENT goals on the 4X4? Or how about going with 6X6 nets? Chances are this "silver bullet" solution will the one that finally kills the beast.

I simply cannot understand why the league cannot stand pat, solidify the teams that are here, invest in heavy PR for ALL league centres, and get into the grass roots movement. Leave expansion alone for the next 5 years and focus on getting the existing game, you know the 5X5 game, solid.

American field players can't play the game at elite levels is complete rubbish and there is no need to change the number of runners because of the want of American field players. You want more American field players? Well here is a novel idea: have a series of prospect clinics/camps to teach them how to play the game. As it stands now, your average American kid shows up to box practice mostly unfamiliar with the more intense details of the game. That is the biggest league shortfall with attracting lots of American talent. They aren't going to become box kids right away, but come try-out time, they will AT LEAST know what to expect.

And if anyone gives me the "American p*ssy" argument, they are full of crap. From the little I have seen, I know enough that there are some guys playing American field now that would love and thrive at a rough and tumble game if they were properly conditioned and properly initiated into the game.

I have always imagined what the impact would be on your Portlands or your Arizonas when the papers report on the local boys playing for the local team, instead of 99% imports.

Ah but developing American players, developing grassroots programs, developing a strong fan-base - they all take time and money - aka "investment." How much investment has the NLL put into the OLA, the BCLA or the ALA? They don't have to, but they simply cannot get away with the same model in the States and think that American field players are going to adapt out of the blocks. Canadian kids have had years to adapt, the LEAST the league can do is give some development time to Americans.

Otherwise the league will continue with the silver bullet brain farks, the league will spend another 10 years tinkering with bush league ideas and nothing will change. Really if 4X4 is ALL that they can think of, maybe there is a need for a change at the top because it seems the "top" is running out of ideas.

[dougm]

look, at least philly has used it to groom players, but for most, its fodder for expansion. lets expand it from 3 to 5 or 6 and maybe promote scrimmagres btwn p/s before the big game if possible. i agree that if given the chance, players want it rough its only parents and tv hungry sycophants that want it soft. american players, if motivated and given the proper coaching, can play indoors. i say look at dan marohl who under lindsay sanderson developed as a solid rookie up in ottawa and has continued his development here in philly. its a two-way street.
i have long maintained that it would be really helpful getting college kids in summer junior lax. scott ditzell was ready to go in roc because he knew what to expect. i would love to see what a kid like danowski could be like if he spent a summer up in burnaby.
we need to begin giving americans opportunities to learn before they get drafted. i like the idea of clinics, but any idea of mixing a kid's scholarship w/ a hint of pro, even if its just to learn how to play box, would draw the evil eye of the ncaa and probably end the kid's free ride. i just want us to make sure that we get in writing the ok from the ncaa before we do anything w/ any college kid.

[Chue25]

Listen for what its worth I am an American born lacrosse player, who for one never heard of the word lacrosse until the summer before my start of high school. I learned about the sport from a good friend who has been through the whole boarding school system. He had given me lots of advice but one of the things he told me that I would always remember is "if you’re really going to boarding school, play lacrosse. Trust me you'll love it". Therefore, I picked up the sport in high school and without a doubt, I fell in love with this new sport that I had never played or even saw before entered high school. Over the summer going into my sophomore year, I stumbled onto the MLL and was stunned. While making new friends who have played lacrosse for years I began to watch college lacrosse and highlight DVDs with the 'exposure' and 'best of 2004 college lacrosse' DVDs. I felt and even till this day feel like I've stepped into a whole new world, but it was in December of my sophomore year while I was at my pop's house for school break and while channel surfing I stumbled upon a Rochester Knighthawk game and couldn't believe what I had witnessed; the speed, the skill, the hits. Despite trying to figure out if the game was really, played in a hockey rink I manage to take in so much from that little experience. For one John Grant Jr. is great! In addition, two I needed to learn about this form of lacrosse that I had never knew existed. To come to somewhat of an end to this story; I had no idea the sport of lacrosse could get any better until I stumbled on the NLL and Box Lacrosse.

As now as an American senior in high school, I do not know how many people I can speak for but I love lacrosse, and after introduced to the indoor game, I love box lacrosse. As those who have posted before me I do not mind watching two teams go at it 4 v 4 while both of them are serving penalties. However, as far as this new addition of experimenting with going 4 v 4 instead of the original 5 v 5 I just do not see the need for it. To tell the truth I believe the deal the NLL has made with versus to televise a game a week will give the box game tremendous exposure despite the experimental 4 v 4. Now as a fan of box lacrosse and a recipient to the new exposure NYC Titans lacrosse team I will definitely attend every home game I get the chance to go to whether it is played at the Nassau Coliseum or Madison Square Garden. Now at my very first NLL game as a fan when the teams start going 4 v 4 I on the other hand will not boo but will still be content to just witness a box lacrosse game in general. Now you can quote me if I am wrong but last time I saw the bandits play the mammoth on espn it was not a low scoring game at all. So just the fact that there is a need felt that scoring should improve should improve isn't really a factor for one because I feel there isn't any situations where at the end of an NLL game there is a single digit result let alone a soccer score like 3-1. I do not think there is problem with the score of at the end of a game, and just the fact of changing the # of players just to improve a score seems meaningless. Listen besides voicing my opinion if this post can give any ideas to the people who overlook the NLL all I can say is if you really want to improve scoring why you do not do something about the goalies equipment. The first time I saw an NLL game the first thing I noticed was that the goalies look like robots. Moreover, I am not even sure if hockey goalies where as much padding. Nevertheless, even changing that aspect of the game would be enormous because if you change the goalies then the goals scored would not be so amazing. What I really feel we should do if everyone wants the game to stay the same then just have a poll of what would be better 5 v 5 or 4 v 4, and have each voter give a reason for their vote. Whether I am wrong or not you can quote me.

If you want more exposure
-get more games broadcasted on TV. Networks
-broadcast as much box lacrosse as you can (jr., senior, intermediate, Mann, Minto, hell even the Fann cup
Know this we are not just giving exposure to box lacrosse, where exposure to lacrosse in general.
-do more box lacrosse clinics and leagues in America
-teach the box lacrosse game to American players

If you really want me, opinion here it is:

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE NLL

[Wolfman]

I am another that would more then likely stop watching NLL if they went to a 4vs4 format. It would certainly lead to more goal scoreing but I don't feel thats missing. In fact any game I have been to where the score was really high I got bored of watching the game...one of the best parts of lacrosse or any game is the anticipation of a goal as much as the goal its self and in lacrosse you know one is comeing its just a matter of when.

I think alot of the extra goals would be fairly boring goals as well. Think of the outside lanes you have with only 4 players you likely to see more and more big outside shot which are no where near as exciting as watching someone dance through the middle of 5 defenders and some how slam a goal in when it looks like the guy can't even move let alone shoot...

I would certainly be one of the guys booing but chances are since this is an exhibition thing I just won't go to any exhibition games...

As for this opening up the game to american raised players I just don't see that. I agree that the box game just has to be taught to the american players at a grassroot level. I am 100% certain that if there was leagues like the OLA and WLA in the states you would see just as many if not more american then canadian players in the NLL. It might just be me but I seem to be seeing more american players getting into the NLL and having success in the last few years then before anyway.

[VTLaxFan]

Okay, what about this, it may sound American-ized, watered down, and ill-born, but how about, six-v.six, with field like restrictions...so only four runners can be past the midline at one time. It's just a thought, an American-ized thought...

[Stonewall35]

Okay, what about this, it may sound American-ized, watered down, and ill-born, but how about, six-v.six, with field like restrictions...so only four runners can be past the midline at one time. It's just a thought, an American-ized thought...

I would have to give a BIG TWO THUMBS DOWN on this one. It takes away some of the transition and fast breaks that the box game is more known for. Also, the goals won't mean as much as they do now.

We in Canada actually play sevens field this way (2 attack, 2 middies, 2 defense, and 1 goalie).

[vimoose]

I was at the NLL game here in Victoria where they played the second half of the game 4 on 4 . I have been a fan of lacrosse for 40 years now ( played 15 years ) and I didn't like the 4 on 4 for a whole half. It takes a big part of the game away, the off ball stuff, pic n rolls etc.. I wish the NLL would leave the game the way it is. What would the NBA do if us Canadians wanted to change basketball to 4 on 4 . They would go nuts !!!!!!!!!!
Leave the game the way it has been played ..5 on 5 !!!!!!

[VTLaxFan]

What about my previous idea, with more changes. Put the middies on roller blades, and have springboards in front of the goal. Again just an idea. I'm not saying that NLL should be the NXLL(national extreme lacrosse league), I just through some slam-roller-crosse would be cool

[sflaxman]

http://www.insidelacrosse.com/page.cfm?pagerid=2&news=fdetail&storyid=140980

I would stop watching the NLL if this were to happen. Yes I realize what the NLL offers isn't a pure form of boxla, but 4 x 4, come on, this would be gay. This is another lame attempt by the NLL to make the game more appealing for American players who are pussies that don't want to get hit. The leagues issue isn't, do people not like the product, because I know that any new of first time fan usually falls in love with the sport, their issue is getting this to a mainstream audience who hasn't even had the chance to watch 5 x 5, so they wouldn't care about this 4 x 4 crap. In fact, they are used to 5 x 5 with hockey and bball, and would probably wonder what the hell is up with 4 x 4 on those huge as boxla floors.

im definitly with tastycakes on this one, i think that if they lowered the amount of runners the game would just be rediculous. its kinda like the NHL All Star youngstars game. You know the 4 on 4 game, it was unbelievable with all the goals they scored and the guys werent even hitting. if box lacrosse did this it would get way to high scoring and it wouldnt be as fun to watch.