Defenseman's pocket [Archive] - The Lacrosse Forums

3rdPersonPlural

11-25-2006, 06:59 PM

So I inherited a used STX head of indeterminate age and label with a badly worn trad pocket in it.

I also have just started getting serious about playing supermasters lax. (That's geezer ball for all of you punk kids who haunt this forum). :nofear:

So I determined to make a pocket optimized for the peculiar needs of d-men. Why not? That's all I ever played and I'll be gassed if I try to migrate to middie at my advanced years.

I conducted an internal poll (10 minutes of pondering, actually) of how defensemen wind up with the ball in their sticks. My estmate is that 80% of the time, it's a ground ball (nobody but a keeper who can't find a middie or another d-man ever throws a ball to a pole.....). 10% of the time it's a ball snatched out of the air that was bouncing lazily around and needed to be cleared. 5% of the time it's a little dink pass from the keeper or a team mate who got into trouble, and 5% is a clean arc pass as part of a set clear.

So a pocket optimized for ground balls and soft landings at odd angles of reception is called for.

If you want to make a living out of contested ground balls, a nice floppy pocket that lets the ball jostle around without letting it pop out is the ticket. Soft landing balls (a bouncing loose ball with little velocity) also loves a grippy/floppy pocket.

Now a floppy pocket is an anathema to a dodger who wants a perdictable launching trajectory at all sorts of angles and polar moments. That is why I see so many firm predictable pockets on this Stick Doc board.

So I cobbled together a optimal defenseman's pocket, which I will describe to y'all, and post some pics once spouse gets back from Colorado with the digital camera and AttackMan promises to enable the upload for me.

I used soft mesh. This stuff is awful for attackmen, but is wonderfully yielding for a defenseman.

Next I set in a coil of throwing string pretty tight from the sidewall a couple of inches from the ball stop up to the scoop, flattening the cone to a frustrum of about an inch and a half at the cut. I placed a throwing string up high pretty tight between the sides of the coiled cone, and anther pretty loose mebbe two inches down from the scoop.. Then I took some really fine cord and coiled it around what I'd consider to be a large baggy pocket in an attempt to help the ball discover where it belongs when secured.

The thing throws with a whip still, which is not such an issue for a d-man as the pole enables even a whippy pass to still travel 50 yards.

I'm just wondering if any of you also have defense-specific pockets, and how they are optimized and constructed.

tkdlaxer

11-25-2006, 07:04 PM

sounds interesting, I'm kinda exited for the pictures, and i'm an attackmen ha

dta06

11-25-2006, 07:06 PM

Wow so many big words and perfect grammar. Anyway i play d and usually string a low bag pocket with some 6d mesh or hard mesh., but lately ive been using some catapultion mesh.
Cant wait for pictures sounds interesting, and with the description you provided i can almost picture it

laxin21

11-25-2006, 07:07 PM

id say that pretty much sums it up. i string for my friend whose on d and the first times i strung it like a middie/attack pocket you described and he hated it. I started doing it soft mesh, looser sidewalls, whip and its perfect for him now. He likes canadian/american mesh (whichever is the soft one) so the pocket has some structure. Looser sidewalls give it more movement and somewhat tight shooters for whip. the pockets pretty much a bag, maybe not so much high. so far it works for most other dmen i string for.

AttackMan17

11-25-2006, 07:10 PM

Ah...Crazy 3pp and your correct spelling and grammar.

Sounds pretty cool.

3rdPersonPlural

11-25-2006, 07:27 PM

I forgot to explain that a defenseman who finds himself dodging is about to be humiliated. Some MLL guys seem to be able to pull it off, but generally, if a defenseman is cornered, he'd better dump ASAP.

So a stickhandler's pocket is wasted on a pole.

I note with some wry amusement that comments on this thread are equally divided between my proper use of our mother tongue and my OP topic.

Learn to communicate, kids! It is the sine qua non of successful adulthood.

Regarding my pocket construction - I expect that most of you will have a better way to make a floppy ground-ball-pocket throw decently. That's why I'm here.

So put your thinking caps on.

eaweb824

11-25-2006, 07:29 PM

I play middie and defense and will switch sticks in between posessions. I've noticed the same things and I would love to see pictures (some of the descriptions really need to be shown with a picture. It sounds sick though!

MaKiMaKi13

11-25-2006, 07:52 PM

good god 3PP you have the craziest idea's and ways of explaining them, but when i play LSM it's usually a low bag pocket, hold and no whip enables me to dish it out on fast breaks and still easily scoop ground balls

CSlax06

11-25-2006, 07:59 PM

Wow, never thought of it that way...

And yeah, if your cornered just throw a hail mary and blame it on the mids if they dont get it, I love bein D.

goalie1215

11-25-2006, 08:01 PM

i throw passes to my defenders.....

good job, this pocket sounds good, cant wait to see it.

itsthatkid

11-25-2006, 08:35 PM

Right now I have a pita with coiled outer nylon on my pole with a low pocket, one rolled shooter. Before that, i always just went with very broken in and conditioned hard mesh, low pocket of bag, three straight across.

nd_lacrosse

11-25-2006, 11:33 PM

in my opinion, a nice deep middle corner pocket is the way to go with D. ive always used them theyre great for hold, throwin the bombs, and even for poles like me, running it through the gauntlet. man do i miss that corner pocket on my hype...

shooktookem

11-25-2006, 11:50 PM

get a tellapocket, it was the best ive used for d ever.

tkdlaxer

11-26-2006, 10:41 AM

get a tellapocket, it was the best ive used for d ever.

I've never heard of a tellapocket, mind showing us all one?

laxCCM

11-26-2006, 11:03 AM

soft mesh is the best thing for d in my opinion, easy ground balls, easier to catch with, more hold, and if strung correctly almost as smooth a release as hard mesh(or at least smooth enough for a dman)

sticktrix 34

11-26-2006, 11:22 AM

pics please.....

spike191

11-26-2006, 11:25 AM

3pp i remember we had a big conversation on lsm's...since you seem to know what your talking about what would be the best pocket for them?

Longpole5435

11-26-2006, 12:14 PM

3pp i remember we had a big conversation on lsm's...since you seem to know what your talking about what would be the best pocket for them?
There is no "best pocket." It depends on what a player wants from their stick. Weight, hold, release and ease of use are all factors that should be considered. I don't think that 3PP is contending that he has created the perfect pocket for a pole, but rather that this may be another combination that would work well. There is always more than one option, find and use the one that you are most sucessful with. The only way you will know is if you try it.

3rdPersonPlural

11-26-2006, 12:31 PM

Thanks for your further consideration, gents.

CCM, You seem to be thinking along the same lines I am. Release is of course important, as a flubbed pass after all that work securing the ball is one of the greater disappointments in the game. The priority is a soft floppy grippy bag of maximum dimension, but the art here is streching that envelope without disabling the basic overhead pass. Since a defender is not expected to dodge and dump (some do, but that's not a part of their job description), a pocket that ONLY releases the ball when coaxed to do so by a proper fundamental throwing motion would be a compromise I expect a defender would be happy to make.

Spike, the LSM is tasked with dislodging the ball, securing the consequent loose ball, and delivering it unto the the pockets of the team's offensive personnel. The LSM is the loose ball retriever, so (like a defender) a pocket optimized for contested loose balls is what I'd imagine an LSM would want. Any pole (but especially a pole with legs) needs to hit a ground ball like a hawk hitting a bunny because his immediate priority is getting the ball to open ground and he'll be surround by attackers in hot pursuit.

I ought to tell you all that photos will be unspectacular. There is no great departure from proven pocket construction doctrine, I assure you. The throwing string layout is a little experimental, but whenever you're trying to boost certain characteristics, you need to puzzle out how to make sure that the necessary compromises don't make the pocket otherwise unuseable.

However, the camera returns from Thanksgiving in Colorado tonight with the family. I will snap some shots of the throwing string solution for critique and illumination. Then I will get them to someone who can post them. Or maybe I'll see if MySpace will let me upload them, and point you to my account.

Or whatever.

Talent223

11-26-2006, 12:44 PM

Wait, I'm confused. Did you actually string the pocket, or did you just think about what would be the generally ideal pocket for all d-men?

If you strung it can you post pics?

theonly

11-26-2006, 07:40 PM

This is how I feel right now... :imparied: :thinking: :imparied:

THALAX

11-26-2006, 07:45 PM

Wait, I'm confused. Did you actually string the pocket, or did you just think about what would be the generally ideal pocket for all d-men?

If you strung it can you post pics?
he inherited an STX head with an old trad in it I think.

3rdPersonPlural

11-26-2006, 08:12 PM

he inherited an STX head with an old trad in it I think.

There is more to the story if you practice your reading skills.

I have a strung stick that works great except for high torque throws. I have no current photos but will snap some shots once my digital camera emerges from the Thanksgiving travel fiasco along with my ex and kids who are en route from Colorado.

Then I will post photos. More acurately, I will deliver photos to someone who can post them. I am shy of uploading sites.

However, the photos are not colorful shots of a great visual triumph. There is a nice boring re-engineering of a soft mesh pocket featuring a truncated obelisk shaped torsional throwing string set up which is far from lovely but which increases the dimensions of the pocket by about 30% without compromising the throwing characteristics as long as you don't try any fancy stuff.

The colors are white-ish and brown-ish. The fundamental lacing is for crap as I am no artist at this.

I am looking for someone to take my engineering ideas and make them 'so'.

By making them better.

Update: Spouse flew to Vegas where she lunched with an old pal from Texas, then found no flights to Santa Barbara and therefore rented a car and is now stuck in traffic near Baker and moving at no more than 15 mph.

She is in a 'mood' that reflects a boozy lunch followed by a 300 mile traffic jam, so I doubt that I'll recover my camera until tomorrow.

I suspect that the word just now is 'chill'.

sharpshooterFTW

11-26-2006, 08:39 PM

3pp, if you need pics uploaded e-mail 'em to me (pm me for my e-mail) and i'll get 'em up if you don't have someone already to do so.

the rig i threw into my pole is somewhat similar. i used american mesh (i think) which has characteristics of soft, but when it takes shape it acts very much like broken in hard mesh. i placed the ball more or less in the center, and then stretched the shape of the pocket to the ball stop, as to have my bottom string act as the ball stop for the ball. it has little whip, but great hold. i put in a nylon, 2 straight, and a U to hold it in place. which is one of the essencials i think for a pole, great hold. only because we have twice the stick for attackmen to hit. i'll upload pics tomorrow

nemiman18

11-26-2006, 08:43 PM

if i like the pocket i will recreate it in a pinched rotor, av8, or ripper

dabomb182

11-26-2006, 09:00 PM

Me as well.

cali feeder

11-26-2006, 10:52 PM

.....Then I will get them to someone who can post them. Or maybe I'll see if MySpace will let me upload them, and point you to my account.

Or whatever.

You have a MySpace? I MUST see this.

WAXmyLAX

11-26-2006, 11:07 PM

Not to be rude, but how old are you, generally speaking? I also find it funny that so many posts have been made before we actually see the product.

EHSLAX12

11-26-2006, 11:28 PM

3rdPersonPlural

11-26-2006, 11:43 PM

That would be "note", EHS.

Take 'note'.

3rdPersonPlural

11-26-2006, 11:52 PM

Not to be rude, but how old are you, generally speaking? I also find it funny that so many posts have been made before we actually see the product.

I'm a friggin grown up, dude. And I'm half inclined to deliver nothing but engineering specs for you kids who can't seem to visualize a solution without someone drawing you a picture.

My digital camera is with my rather agitated ex. who has yet to arrive.

The photos will not be dramatic. Just expository.

That's all.

EHSLAX12

11-26-2006, 11:54 PM

That would be "note", EHS.

Take 'note'.

....The photos will not be dramatic. Just expository....

so i skipped the "e"...i speak english GREAT

and take notE of another SAT word.

manup5183

11-26-2006, 11:58 PM

I'm a friggin grown up, dude. And I'm half inclined to deliver nothing but engineering specs for you kids who can't seem to visualize a solution without someone drawing you a picture.

My digital camera is with my rather agitated ex. who has yet to arrive.

The photos will not be dramatic. Just expository.

That's all.

Jeez. I never thought that reading a post could be so hard. :roll:

On a side note, I am rather interested to view these dramatic expository (No clue in my mind what that means) photos. The pocket sounds very custimized. I think i might take some time to figure out what i need in a pocket.

Riot

11-26-2006, 11:58 PM

so i skipped the "e"...i speak english GREAT
*well

:P

manup5183

11-27-2006, 12:00 AM

:lol: :clap: :roll:

very nice sir, very nice.

EHSLAX12

11-27-2006, 12:03 AM

*well

:P

if you didnt pick up on the joke....

Riot

11-27-2006, 12:05 AM

if you didnt pick up on the joke....
I did, notice the :P?

3rdPersonPlural

11-27-2006, 01:01 AM

Expository \Ex*pos"i*to*ry\, a.
Pertaining to, or containing, exposition; serving to explain;
explanatory; illustrative; exegetical.

3rdPersonPlural

11-27-2006, 11:49 AM

I have photos on my hard drive. Could somebody who has a facility for getting them onto this thread please PM me with instructions or an e-mail address and we can continue with a visual?

I adjusted the throwing string solution last night, tightening it a lot to make it more pronounced in photos, and an delighted to report that it now throws straighter and flatter than any pocket I've ever had. This is astonishing for a pocket made of soft mesh and optimized for pocket size and ground balls.

We may have stumbled onto something here.....

3rdPersonPlural

11-27-2006, 01:45 PM

http://myspace-874.vo.llnwd.net/01485/47/88/1485748874_m.jpg

The only innovative design feature of this pocket is the throwing string solution.

Particularly with soft mesh and with the big torque a pole delivers, the pocket wants to relocate itself behind the scoop when throwing. Conventionally, throwing strings across the pocket stiffen and reinforce the upper half of the pocket to defeat this deformation and enable a smooth release, but this practice also compromises the pliability of the pocket, effectively making the top 1/2 or 1/3 of the pocket unuseable for ball handling.

http://myspace-072.vo.llnwd.net/01485/27/03/1485753072_m.jpg

The throwing string array in this pocket attempts to use torsion parallel to the force that deforms a pocket rather than perpendicular to it. Think suspension bridge versus a conventional plank bridge. The deep V throwing support essentially secures the structural relationship between the upper pocket and the lower pocket. However, to keep the sweet spot between the torsional members as wide as possible, the shape isn't a true V, it's more like a truncated Obelisk. This design hopes to create the largest and longest usable pocket.

http://myspace-727.vo.llnwd.net/01485/72/71/1485751727_m.jpg

As the photos hopefully demonstrate, the throwing strings are made of a heavy-ish gauge cord. I had to drill two extra holes in the head because the head I had to work with had no extras, and it is important to secure the throwing element to the head, not to a side lace. It is secured at the scoop by threading the cord over the two middle loops that hold the mesh to the scoop, then passed through the hole in the head on the other sidewall. Make it tight, and keep tightening everything as you come back coiling the cord around itself and the adjacent mesh

The result is a long, soft teardrop shaped pocket that holds like nothing you've ever tried. It throws straight, as the narrowing throwing V forces the ball to roll up to the scoop like it's on rails. The shallowness of the pocket is not intentional. It just turned out that way. But a deeper pocket will further enhance the grippiness of the pocket and hopefully not compromise the throwing characteristics.

http://myspace-233.vo.llnwd.net/01485/33/24/1485754233_m.jpg

I had earlier posted that the pocket got whippy on long throws, but I believe I fixed that by tightening the throwing string array. It throws astonishingly accurately, perhaps because the ball always exits the pocket at the same place - right in the middle of the scoop. This throwing characteristic may have a lot to do with the fact that the throwing strings act like fingers do when throwing a ball by hand. Once a ball gets up on to conventional throwing strings, it is on a surface best likened to the palm of a hand. This pocket hangs on longer and releases the ball like a split fingered fastball.

For bigger pictures, go to http://www.myspace.com/3rdpersonplural and visit the photo gallery.

Jmalins23

11-27-2006, 02:02 PM

that looks like it would be very inconsistent with that shooting string setup, also your sidewalls look very loose

3rdPersonPlural

11-27-2006, 02:05 PM

Thanks for the feedback, J. What do you mean by inconsistent? Unpredictable throwing perhaps? Unreliable ball placement in the pocket?

nemiman18

11-27-2006, 02:25 PM

in the rain the throwing would get screwed up, or it would get screwed up after it was broken in

3rdPersonPlural

11-27-2006, 02:43 PM

in the rain the throwing would get screwed up, or it would get screwed up after it was broken in

That's definitely a concern. Durability. The rigidity of the throwing solution can easily get compromised and I'm concerned that even during a game it will loosen up.

There are ways to address this, however.

nemiman18

11-27-2006, 02:53 PM

maybe try using some LU dura mesh, it is pretty soft but hard enough to stay consistent

3rdPersonPlural

11-27-2006, 03:23 PM

maybe try using some LU dura mesh, it is pretty soft but hard enough to stay consistent

That will solve the problem of keeping the mesh from changing it's dynamic in the rain, but the critical structural element here is the tight torsional throwing rails.

Is there a cord that, once secured, does not strech or shrink with time and exposure?

spike191

11-27-2006, 03:32 PM

1st: 3pp are you an english teacher

2nd couldn't the torque problem be solved by adding another shooter across the head? It wouldn't compromise the channel. Also what does this pocet have over traditionaly strung heads with a channel?

3rdPersonPlural

11-27-2006, 03:45 PM

1st: 3pp are you an english teacher

No, and I haven't taken an English class since AP English in high school.

2nd couldn't the torque problem be solved by adding another shooter across the head? It wouldn't compromise the channel. Also what does this pocet have over traditionaly strung heads with a channel?

No we're thinking! A conventional shooter across the whole head a diamond or two below the scoop is how I had it before I re engineered it last night. With adquately taut primary shooters, it doesn't seem to be necessary, but I'm hoping that some of you will try this solution and refine it.

3rdPersonPlural

11-27-2006, 03:53 PM

Also what does this pocet have over traditionaly strung heads with a channel?

I missed this part: The answer is probably not much. The channeled trads I've seen usually are better described as 'tracked' with the track being formed by two paralled leathers up the center of the pocketthat reside under the ball, not converging on either side as the ball moves out of the core of the pocket and toward the scoop. Conventional throwing strings perpendicular to the channel usually keep the pocket from deforming when the ball is thrown.

This solution creates a gradiated rigidity from the deepest/widest part of the pocket to the scoop torsionally, rather than structurally, so it's even and predictable. Plus the useable part of the pocket is larger and centered in the head, rather than huddled toward the bottom of the head..

dta06

11-27-2006, 04:23 PM

Have you ever considered writing a book?

On topic: looks like a good pocket. Cant really see it that weel because theres no way to enlarge them (or atleast on my cpu).

3rdPersonPlural

11-27-2006, 04:36 PM

Have you ever considered writing a book?

I'm working on a mini series summary even now. It's hard work and I'm getting writer's block, which is why I'm bouncing around here so much.

On topic: looks like a good pocket. Cant really see it that well because theres no way to enlarge them (or atleast on my cpu).

Visit the myspace link. click on my pics. Ignore the photo of the devastatingly handsome portly balding suburban dad and click on the photos of the lacrosse heads.

You should get a nice hi def full page shot to ponder.

tkdlaxer

11-27-2006, 06:26 PM

Well i have a couple suggestions for you.

first you might consider trying semi-hard mesh...or maybe a diamond mesh to improve the duribility of the pocket. or possibly dare i say it, yes, mini mesh! that might help you a bunch for the floppy holdy pocket you want.

the shooters you did were creative..if you want somethign that wont stretch, and you willing to think outside the box you might try some thin plastic tubing...like this: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.vernier.com/images/products/ps-tubing_web.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.vernier.com/accessories/access.html%3Fps-tubing%26template%3Dbasic.html&h=200&w=200&sz=3&hl=en&start=16&tbnid=PbFZrR43V3QuXM:&tbnh=104&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dplastic%2Btubing%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3D en%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG
the real thin kind. sinse its not a nylon it might not stretch on you as much. but thats just a guess. any how i thought i'd try and contribute

spike191

11-27-2006, 07:09 PM

3rdPersonPlural

11-27-2006, 07:14 PM

Well i have a couple suggestions for you.

That's why I'm here. I'll do the theoretical engineering, you guys do the practical development. We each have our areas of expertise and documentable skill sets.

first you might consider trying semi-hard mesh...or maybe a diamond mesh to improve the duribility of the pocket. or possibly dare i say it, yes, mini mesh! that might help you a bunch for the floppy holdy pocket you want.

Oh Jesus. I'm not keen on ordering a dozen different meshes and stringing a dozen different heads. That's what I have y'all for. :worship:

the shooters you did were creative..if you want somethign that wont stretch, and you willing to think outside the box you might try some thin plastic tubing...like this: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.vernier.com/images/products/ps-tubing_web.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.vernier.com/accessories/access.html%3Fps-tubing%26template%3Dbasic.html&h=200&w=200&sz=3&hl=en&start=16&tbnid=PbFZrR43V3QuXM:&tbnh=104&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dplastic%2Btubing%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3D en%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG
the real thin kind. sinse its not a nylon it might not stretch on you as much. but thats just a guess. any how i thought i'd try and contribute

I love active minds! That tubing may well work, but I'm thinking a couple of zip ties laced into the mesh to 'locate' it and zipped together really tight.

Zip ties never sag, you know. They'll tighten on you, but never sag.

That may be the ticket.

laxpro

11-27-2006, 07:17 PM

3rdPersonPlural

11-27-2006, 07:31 PM

First things first, we are all highschool kids here, i don't want to dumb your amazing vocabulary down any but half of us are going to understand you better if you talk in lax terms compared to scientific ones. (i want to read your summary cuz you seem like a great writer, i can gather that jsut from your posts).

I CAN'T talk simply in lax terms. This is an effort to recruit the talent on this board to explore new horizons. Some will respond, and produce pockets that out perform last year's conventional pockets. Others will be neophobic (that means 'afraid of the new') and continue to reproduce old, and perhaps less functional, pockets.

Maybe some will get to thinking and come up with pockets that are engineered better than anything I could ever think of.

However, I need to use the lexicon that applies to the challenge. That's engineering lingo.

I suggested the shooter (now thinking about it, might be a good idea to roll it) to help out with clears and to reduce the lip. What this pocket is is an extremely better version of rail mesh. It keeps the rails from restricting the pocket while acts as shooters at the same time. What might be good is a piece of really really really (can't stress it enough) broken in 6 diamond mesh for even more hold, if its possible

See? You comprehended what I did and thought about it and came up with a solution that may well be better. I refuse to accept that the gurus on this board are baffled by engineering terms describing pocket construction, and you've just proven me right.

Can you find some really really really broken in 6 diamond to test your theory?

3rdPersonPlural

11-27-2006, 07:39 PM

I'm a friggin grown up dude or
I'm friggin grown up, dude.

The latter is better form.

The former is not really true. I never accomplished 'dude' status as I am too geeky and introspective. Dudes tend to be somewhat shallow on many levels.

spike191

11-27-2006, 07:43 PM

thanks i feel like a supierior human being now. about the mesh the reason behind the 6 diamond would be to creat more hold, because thats what the larger diamonds do. The reason it would be soft is so that it won't have any rebound and hold the ball even better. There is no way that i know of to just get really broken in 6D but if you gets so you could probably just use some conditioner and warm water to make it soft. Im getting some for hanukah (18days) so i will probably try it.

Also, 3pp what exactly is your occupation. I know your a lax coach and normaly lax coaches are teachers, but your knowledge of language and engineering leads me to believe your something else

3rdPersonPlural

11-27-2006, 07:52 PM

Also, 3pp what exactly is your occupation. I know your a lax coach and normaly lax coaches are teachers, but your knowledge of language and engineering leads me to believe your something else

I officiate. I coach my 11 year old's team a little but I'm not the coach.

I make my living by developing small companies into takeover targets.

A small time venture capitalist, I guess.

laxmiddie11

11-27-2006, 07:59 PM

No, and I haven't taken an English class since AP English in high school.

No we're thinking! A conventional shooter across the whole head a diamond or two below the scoop is how I had it before I re engineered it last night. With adquately taut primary shooters, it doesn't seem to be necessary, but I'm hoping that some of you will try this solution and refine it.

I believe it's noW we're thinking

3rdPersonPlural

11-27-2006, 08:13 PM

I believe it's noW we're thinking

Indeed. My fat fingers betray me from time to time.

THALAX

11-27-2006, 08:21 PM

Just in case you didn't know, that is an STX Viper. It was always hard for me to get a good pocket in it, because of the lack of sidewall holes.

3rdPersonPlural

11-27-2006, 08:25 PM

That's good to know, Thalax. I have a drill, so the lack of sidewall holes is resolved.

My kid has a Gait Torque. Besides being the best head I've ever encountered, it has more GD holes than a truckload of swiss cheese.

tkdlaxer

11-27-2006, 09:23 PM

Out of curiusness what postition does your kid play?

OK back to my origonal idea if you took mini mesh, it would be incredably soft and floppy due to its nature, and it would also have alot of hold cuz of all the little diamonds and it being soft. the challenge would be incorporating a shooter setup that allowed the maximum amount of hold in an all over pocket...i think that to do this you could do a spin offa a mesh hybrid. do like an open sidewall like on a goalie head just mod it so it fits att/d heads....anywho this would give a deep, all over floppy pocket that swung with the ball kinda like a hammok... then a tight nylon or 2 up top so the ball can be released.

so instead of your new shooter setup to channel the ball youd have the minimesh strung open sidewall style creating the ultimate in hold and "channelledness" then you could use a more conventional shooter setup to help your release be more effective.

I need some one else to...work with this idea though cuz i'm not sure how incredable it is

edit note to everyone! my spellin an grammar is horrible becuase i'm tired and dont wish to take the time to do anything with it. apoligies to all

goalieskcickay

11-27-2006, 09:39 PM

I make my living by developing small companies into takeover targets.
A small time venture capitalist, I guess.

A member of the petit bourgeoisie!

Ahem.

Anyways, simply to play the devil's advocate, isn't this a classic example of KISS? (Keep It Simple, Slightlybaldingportlymiddleagedgentleman)
Pockets of every size and dimension can be found of the sticks of the world's top defenseman, who all seem to do fine with what they have. So why fix it if it isn't broken?

tkdlaxer

11-27-2006, 09:45 PM

A member of the petit bourgeoisie!

Ahem.

Anyways, simply to play the devil's advocate, isn't this a classic example of KISS? (Keep It Simple, Slightlybaldingportlymiddleagedgentleman)
Pockets of every size and dimension can be found of the sticks of the world's top defenseman, who all seem to do fine with what they have. So why fix it if it isn't broken?

why not fix it, theres always a bigger better mouse trap. plus with the new head rules coming out. were gonna be looking more and more towards pockets.

3rdPersonPlural

11-28-2006, 12:22 AM

Goaliesck, when I started playing defense heads were bigger than attack heads, middies had shafts longer than attackmen, and equipment like gloves and helmets were primitive compared to anything any of you might remember.

But the game was GREAT!! Why evolve?

I'm proposing a throwing string set up that solves more problems than it causes, and the problems it causes can be solved in a week.

It has a 30% bigger ball handling pocket located where it's needed most. It is primarily a ground ball pocket, so everyone who uses one will have the opportunity to improve their ground game. It throws like a pitcher with a split fingered fastball. It solves problems we didn't even know we had.

I say get the kids here to develop it into whatever it can be. The devil's advocate says that everything is OK now, so let's shelve it until someone else comes up with a similar solution.

And TKD is right. Head tech is getting rolled back. Pocket tech will have to step up to keep the equipment advancing.

3rdPersonPlural

11-28-2006, 12:32 AM

Out of curiusness what postition does your kid play?

He's 11. He plays lax. He fancies himself an attackman, but his skill set and physical attributes will probably make him a middie eventually. Sadly, he lacks the charm and good looks needed to qualify as a defender. :chuckle:

so instead of your new shooter setup to channel the ball youd have the minimesh strung open sidewall style creating the ultimate in hold and "channelledness" then you could use a more conventional shooter setup to help your release be more effective.

Worth a try. Bright ideas should never be discounted, and yours sounds well thought out. I still think that reconfigured shooters will result in greater net gains of performance, but time will tell.

nemiman18

11-28-2006, 04:14 PM

3rdPersonPlural

11-28-2006, 06:05 PM

im in middle school(6th grade)

My little laxer is also in 6th grade.

You should congratulate yourself that I didn't figure you for one of his contemporaries. He still struggles with commas and would never use a word such as 'consistent'.

Other than that, he's pretty cool, though. :laugh:

nemiman18

12-02-2006, 09:36 AM

i am a genious

use something like the nelax pocket for a channel

i am sooooo smart

dta06

12-02-2006, 10:39 AM

Have you put this pocket to use yet? Im thinking about putting this on my D-head, but my only concern is that it will start to lip during a game.

sticktrix 34

12-02-2006, 11:07 AM

i thought you were going for hold

u need some shooters

Wubbie

12-02-2006, 11:15 AM

I here a lot of people complaining about how it may gain whip... To keep it short and simple, can't a Triangle Topstring help us with that little... ordeal?

nemiman18

12-02-2006, 11:25 AM

mabe maybe not

he said he was bad at the basics so....

MaKiMaKi13

12-02-2006, 12:58 PM

I here a lot of people complaining about how it may gain whip... To keep it short and simple, can't a Triangle Topstring help us with that little... ordeal?

triangle topstring is for LIP mainly but remember this on a pole ill see if i can find one of 3PP's explanations for solving whip in my PM's

Wubbie

12-02-2006, 01:12 PM

I didn't mean whip, dunno how I ended up stating that...

I was mainly answering DTAs concerns: "...start to lip during a game."

My apologies... It seems I'm rusty on my LAX lingo.

3rdPersonPlural

12-02-2006, 02:48 PM

3PP is spending the day at a garden party in Simi. I'll add some thoughts later.

I had a Dutch au pair over last night with one of her charges. She added a song to my my space profile (linked somewhere above)

Tell me what you think.

sjrminilax03

12-02-2006, 10:24 PM

3rdPersonPlural

12-02-2006, 10:49 PM

hey 3pp you think you could make a tut on this pocket?i'm pretty convinced that this will work for me .. i play d and attack, but i have that defensive mentality, so anything to step up my game. you can either pm me with it or just slap it up on here.

- thanks

It has already been slapped up. Admittedly, the pics here are first generation prototype, but there are some skilled pocket experts fiddling around with fabrication details.

I will urge the to complete their efforts with all due dispatch. Then you can have a tutorial that makes sense beyond the engineering specs.

sjrminilax03

12-02-2006, 10:52 PM

o thanks. well you can forget the message that i left you. but regarding the proton+, do you think it should work?

sjrminilax03

12-02-2006, 10:53 PM

great i always miss your replys

3rdPersonPlural

12-03-2006, 05:15 PM

I Built a beta version (as opposed to the prototype I posted before) of this shooter configuration using zip ties, and the old mesh and stringing extracted from the previous factory stringing job. A step by step fabrication workbook follows:

# Determine the throw string terminal points on your sidewalls. This is usually 2 or 3 inches up from the ball stop, or where the pinch starts on a pinched head.

# Carefully align and then attach your mesh to the sidewall ABOVE the terminal point using zip ties. Zip 'em tight, and forget 'em. If you want to be conventional and lace the sidewalls, be sure to do so firmly and use a lace that will not stretch, as if they do the geometry of the shooters may be altered. I don't know if that will be catastrophic, but why tempt fate?

# Attach your mesh to the scoop using zip ties. Again, you can use laces here, but zip ties are far more durable than any lace, and laces abrade every time you pick up a ground ball.

http://myspace-051.vo.llnwd.net/01513/15/04/1513124051_l.jpg

# Make sure that there are holes in the scoop 1 to 3/4 of an inch on either side of the center point that can accommodate a (or another) zip tie. These are your 'scoop terminals. The distance between them is selected because that is the distance between my fingers when I grip a lacrosse ball to throw accurately and fast. This shooter configuration releases the ball like a pitcher releasing a fast ball. I think that I put them one notch too close together in this version.

http://myspace-871.vo.llnwd.net/01513/17/84/1513134871_l.jpg

3rdPersonPlural

12-03-2006, 05:19 PM

# Stick a zip tie from the outside into the right sidewall hole you've determined to be your terminal hole , then lace it through the mesh up to the right scoop hole you've selected for your upper scoop terminal
# Barely zip another zip tie onto this tie, and lace it back to the sidewall terminus through the same holes in the mesh back to the sidewall terminal.
# Make sure that the chunky parts of the zip ties are not anywhere that could snag another player or scrape on the ground, then tighten this loop as much as you can. There has to be a more elegant way to conjoin the two ties at the sidewall, but it eludes me just now.
# Repeat on the other side.
# Determine your desired pocket depth, and lace up your lower sidewalls between the terminals and the throat. This is your adjustment zone, so don't use zip ties - use the conventional lace system.
# Wrap the throw string zip ties with some conventional throwing string lace or cord. This ensures that the mesh is securely located by the shooters and won't slide around with use.

http://myspace-556.vo.llnwd.net/01513/65/58/1513138556_l.jpg

# Test your throwing, and if you get a click on the lip when throwing hard, put a conventional throwing string across a diamond or two below the scoop. If it's whippy, make the pocket below the sidewall terminals more shallow.

http://myspace-740.vo.llnwd.net/01513/04/71/1513141740_l.jpg

3rdPersonPlural

12-03-2006, 05:19 PM

Disclaimer: This design is a beta release. That is one generation beyond the prototype, and it hasn't been vigorously field tested or exposed to the tests of exposure to the elements or to time. I will be utterly astonished if it performs to spec for everybody without some need for fundamental modifications

The advantages of this shooter configuration are:

* A larger, diamond shaped pocket than the smaller, triangle provided by a conventional shooter configuration. This helps on ground balls, loose balls, and retaining the ball when off balance.
* Shooters that direct the ball to the same release point every time, making throws more predictable and shots more accurate
* Shooters that grip the ball more securely through release, increasing spin on the ball and enabling more velocity per unit of force applied to the throw.
* Adjusting the pocket depth affects the release point, the release angle, and the geometry of shooters to head much less than the same adjustment on conventional perpendicular shooters
* With the head tilted downward, the ball is still secured in a pocket, rather than rolling around on a 'palm' of shooters. This increased the control of underhand shots and passes, and the confidence of players who use these shots and passes..

The disadvantages are:

* The ball tends to ride higher in the head than most players are used to when power cradling. This might be fixed by some elegant sidewall lacing between the sidewall shooter terminals and the scoop, though.
* Within a narrow range of velocities, a ball caught high between the shooters at an perpendicular or obtuse angle (example: ball ==> \ stick is acute, ball ==> I stick is perpendicular, ball ==> / stick is obtuse) may become temporarily wedged in to the pocket. This might actually be an advantage, as a ball caught in this way tends to bounce out of a conventionally strung pocket, but it may be disconcerting to the player and some officials may take it upon themselves to declare the pocket illegal if this happens. They will have to call on the 'equipment modified to give an unfair advantage' article, but it is possible.

3rdPersonPlural

12-03-2006, 05:21 PM

Oh my. How did my images get so big?

3rdPersonPlural

12-03-2006, 05:59 PM

I should also add that the zip ties for the sidewalls and scoop were 8", and the shooter brace was 14".

That is all.

L4X_M4ST3R

12-03-2006, 06:44 PM

Sorry but i don't see the glory in this pocket...but i just don't see wat it is cracked up to be

Yes i realize it is one of ur concepts....
Also edit button is on the screen

Longpole5435

12-03-2006, 06:46 PM

Sorry but i don't see the glory in this pocket...but i just don't see wat it is cracked up to be

Yes i realize it is one of ur concepts....
Also edit button is on the screen
You are erronious to criticize the great 3PP.

L4X_M4ST3R

12-03-2006, 06:50 PM

You are erronious to criticize the great 3PP.

No i just don't see wat is so great about the "defense man's pocket" Although i don't play defense i have strung some of my teammates stuff and they just like a simple low 10D mesh pocket w/ very little whip

3rdPersonPlural

12-03-2006, 07:15 PM

Lax Master, you're right that all this is is a reconfiguration and refabrication of the shooters. It does not LOOK that different. but many lax players look to the configuration of their pocket to give them a little edge.

This piece ain't perfect - next time I'd run the shooters one notch wider on the scoop - but it IS a notable conceptual development. A heck of a lot more significant than dye jobs and colored laces, if you ask me.

L4X_M4ST3R

12-03-2006, 07:18 PM

yea i guess you got a point w/ the whole colored shooters thing it really isn't a significant conceptual development

MaKiMaKi13

12-03-2006, 07:44 PM

woohoo glad to see i strung up my friends pocket correctly just forgot to take pictures, o well we shall see how it performs next week in our tourney

3rdPersonPlural

12-03-2006, 08:02 PM

woohoo glad to see i strung up my friends pocket correctly just forgot to take pictures, o well we shall see how it performs next week in our tourney

errr....Maki, my dear fellow, you'd better get your buddy an hour or so of catch and wall time before sending him out with an overpowered and perhaps twitchy pocket.

Wubbie

12-03-2006, 08:04 PM

Only problem I can see arising is Lip...

I think 1 straight shooter could do the job... I must say though, this is a great idea... Props to 3PP.

MaKiMaKi13

12-03-2006, 08:09 PM

errr....Maki, my dear fellow, you'd better get your buddy an hour or so of catch and wall time before sending him out with an overpowered and perhaps twitchy pocket.

ah you underestimated me 3PP i always throw with the pockets i string up before i give them to my friends and it was quite high powered but nothing that takes much adjusting to in my opinion and the tourney is this coming sunday so if there is required maintenance there is ample time

3rdPersonPlural

12-03-2006, 08:10 PM

Lip might be an issue if you spread the shooters out another notch or so on that Icon, Wubbie, which is my current recommendation. However, the shooters are taut zip ties wrapped in hawkey laces, so the ball gets squeezed up onto the scoop and lip click is just not an issue.

I thought it would be, too. That's why I put the convergence so narrow.

But I'd bet that an ever wider channel would still be 'lipless' after throwing some.

3rdPersonPlural

12-03-2006, 08:12 PM

ah you underestimated me 3PP i always throw with the pockets i string up before i give them to my friends and it was quite high powered but nothing that takes much adjusting to in my opinion and the tourney is this coming sunday so if there is required maintenance there is ample time

Satisfactory!! You, of course, will provide me with feedback?

Did you get the velocity bump I encountered?

L4X_M4ST3R

12-03-2006, 08:13 PM

hawkey laces

YEA I FOUND THE ONLY SPELLING ERROR haha

but yea wen i saw this at first i also thought lip would be a problem but i guess it isn't the way you described it

MaKiMaKi13

12-03-2006, 08:17 PM

i will definitely provide you with feedback, also did get the "velocity bump" probably the quickest/hardest release ive ever felt with any pocket before

3rdPersonPlural

12-03-2006, 08:27 PM

YEA I FOUND THE ONLY SPELLING ERROR haha

Ne-yah Bawstin, dey play Hawkey. Up Nawt dey play Hawkey. Noo Yawkas play Hawkey. Lawn Geiland - it's Hawkey. Down Sout dey skate and chit wit sticks and da puck, but dey say 'Hockey'.

but yea wen i saw this at first i also thought lip would be a problem but i guess it isn't the way you described it

Not really, although I'd have exactly the same response as you if I just took a cursory glance at that config.

3rdPersonPlural

12-03-2006, 08:36 PM

i will definitely provide you with feedback, also did get the "velocity bump" probably the quickest/hardest release ive ever felt with any pocket before

That's what we grown ups call serendipity. A pleasant but unintended result of an occurance. The real test is if it handles gound balls like it's s'posed to and holds the ball when jostled. Otherwisw it's a middie pocket. And we're back to the drawing board.

3rdPersonPlural

12-03-2006, 08:42 PM

BTW, has anybody gone to my MySpace and slooshied the Kraak en Smaak electrofunk stylings I've got for a soundtrack?

Little Sammy Cleary's au pair convinced me that it was 'da bomb'. I feel so hip, and nobody is responding to my request for verification of my abject hipness.

I've got to solve a problem in....somewhere that thinks it's monday....... in an hour. I'll blink out soon.

sjrminilax03

12-03-2006, 08:49 PM

3PP you are offcially a genious!! i strung up the shooters the way you have it and voila! it works like a charm. i cant wait to play in a game with it!

3rdPersonPlural

12-03-2006, 08:56 PM

My Stats: Goals=0 Assists=0

I trust that your stats will improve.

Bounce the ball at the keeper's off hip when you get a shot......

sjrminilax03

12-03-2006, 08:57 PM

definately

L4X_M4ST3R

12-03-2006, 08:58 PM

I trust that your stats will improve.

Bounce the ball at the keeper's off hip when you get a shot......

his season hasn't opened yet
Indoor might have though

3rdPersonPlural

12-03-2006, 08:59 PM

'definitely' and 'genius', BTW, are the accepted spellings of those words.

Your grammar Nazi, 3PP.
Uh HUH!

MaKiMaKi13

12-04-2006, 02:15 PM

3rdPersonPlural

12-04-2006, 06:31 PM

so i got a little information from my friend he says its "godly" best pocket ive strung yet he says groundballs are easy to retain, for the ball moving when he's taking checks to his stick not so sure yet but we'll see soon

I had a buddy of mine who's a post doc at the university with a degree in mechanical engineering and some rather undistinguished lax background (He played for MIT, actually) come over for whiskey and football last night.

He showed considerable interest in the pocket, and noted that the ball is accellerated out of the pocket using a mechanical variant of the electromagnetic field that particle physicists use to sling atoms around a linear accellerator.

I didn't know that.

And THANKS for the great news. I thought that it would be many developmental generations before this configuration got any interest from anyone but eggheads.

MaKiMaKi13

12-04-2006, 06:36 PM

He showed considerable interest in the pocket, and noted that the ball is accellerated out of the pocket using a mechanical variant of the electromagnetic field that particle physicists use to sling atoms around a linear accellerator.

isnt that when physicist try to get atoms to collide and break into the smaller parts?? but i could be wrong who knows haha im just a high school senior

L4X_M4ST3R

12-04-2006, 06:43 PM

isnt that when physicist try to get atoms to collide and break into the smaller parts?? but i could be wrong who knows haha im just a high school senior

An electromagnetic field is what is caused when a Electron is run through a wire(current)....And the direction of the electron creates an magnetic field around the wire..An electromagnet is when the wire is coiled

NOTE: alot of detail was left out i left it in lamans terms

HAHAHa i knew shop class would come in handy (VO TECH BABY)

nemiman18

12-04-2006, 06:53 PM

ahhhhhh!!!!

you guys are so confusing

L4X_M4ST3R

12-04-2006, 06:54 PM

I just don't understand what the electromagnet deal had to do with this pocket....i mean i did explain what i have learned an electromagnet is but they seem to have NOTHING in common

MaKiMaKi13

12-04-2006, 06:56 PM

An electromagnetic field is what is caused when a Electron is run through a wire(current)....And the direction of the electron creates an magnetic field around the wire..An electromagnet is when the wire is coiled

NOTE: alot of detail was left out i left it in lamans terms

HAHAHa i knew shop class would come in handy (VO TECH BABY)

haha thanks for the info unfortunately i was never lucky enough to take shop, physics freshman year but no shop lol what is my HS thinking

he said that its the mechanical version of the pocket, so the channel formed by the zip ties would cause the ball to run throughout the pocket, just like the electromagnetic field that is caused by the electron running through the wire or something to that extent

3rdPersonPlural

12-04-2006, 07:29 PM

I just don't understand what the electromagnet deal had to do with this pocket....i mean i did explain what i have learned an electromagnet is but they seem to have NOTHING in common

To be quite candid, I don't either. At least I don't have enough grasp to feel confident about my explanation.

This is what I gathered, though. The ball is lifted from the pocket to the scoop (release point) by a rigid channel that narrows as the ball progresses up toward the scoop. This (somehow) enables more accelleration than a conventional array of shooter steps perpendicular to the ball's progress.

My degree is in econ, so if I'm all wrong, blame it on the whiskey.

3rdPersonPlural

12-05-2006, 06:52 PM

Now I Got Issues. Wall ball is one thing, but playing catch is another thing altogether.

Having finally convinced the mini me that throwing the football around can be interrupted now and then with some lax play, I got consent for a half hour of throwing around and I am seeking help.

1. Whip. The thing works splendid with side arm and underhand shots, but the standard overhead pass hooks to the feet. How does one build in a little more loft?

2. Feel. Maybe I'm just an old dog, but I like to feel the ball exiting my stick. This blasted thing telegraphs no sensation through the fingers that the ball has moved or left or anything. Should I widen the gap between the points where the shooters meet the scoop and maybe put in a conventional perpendicular shooter a diamond or two down from the scoop?

3. Lazy catching. I never knew how many passes I caught up on the shooters and off center. Maybe I stink, but I feel I've outgrown having to look every pass into the pocket to catch the ball properly. This is like playing with one of those box lax heads that's only 4 inches wide at the head. You got to be on your game to keep from getting plastic on every catch.

I think that I need to re-install zip ties in the shooters that aren't plier tight, lace in at least one conventional shooter, and widen the gap between the shooter terminals at the scoop.

This thing is an animal! How do I tame it?

Wubbie

12-05-2006, 07:05 PM

"I think that I need to re-install zip ties in the shooters that aren't plier tight, lace in at least one conventional shooter, and widen the gap between the shooter terminals at the scoop."

That SOUNDS like it should help you with all your problems... Making the mesh area wider will help with Lazy Catching... It should also make you feel the ball more as it leaves the pocket.... Adding the shooter will give you more control over your style of throw and loosening the zipties will get rid of some whip...

After hearing everyones experience... I'm tempted to try this out.

3rdPersonPlural

12-05-2006, 07:26 PM

Wubbie, we're prototyping. We have some fundamental advantages with some blasted details to be sorted out. This is the lot of a 'creative thinker'.

I'd be much obliged if you could run this concept through your cabinets of experience and figure out how to keep the good and neutralize the bad.

BTW, the zip ties were installed because the torsional shooters needed more rigidity than a coiled cord could give to hold it's form under high torque events (like throwing a gilman or shooting).

Wubbie

12-05-2006, 07:49 PM

I play middie, and I'm still inclined to help out with this...

My viper is in need of a restring, I'll go find some zipties and help out with this great idea...

And just for the record... I'm not very creative... I only use Cata and Trad, I love Shotgun heads, and I think Woodies own... I guess I'm stuck in the past ^_^.

MaKiMaKi13

12-05-2006, 07:53 PM

perhaps widening the channel a little, too tight of a channel tends to form a whippy pocket, and the 1 straight shooter about 4 rows down from the top and then maybe a nylon shooter right above that should give you that nice "crisp" release of the ball exiting the pocket

3rdPersonPlural

12-05-2006, 07:54 PM

Wubbie, I'm 46 and an 'old dog'. However, I like making things better wherever possible.

Get some 14 inch zip ties and some 8 (or less) inchers. The 14's do fine for the shooters, and the shorter ones do fine for wherever you want a stiff hold without any stretch or give.

Like the mesh to scoop connection.

3rdPersonPlural

12-05-2006, 07:56 PM

MaKiMaKi13

12-05-2006, 08:01 PM

After I order pizza and view 'Gilmore Girls with the neighbor's maiden aunt, I'll try that. Thanks!

haha oddly enough i just finished watching Gilmore Girls lol

3rdPersonPlural

12-05-2006, 08:14 PM

haha oddly enough i just finished watching Gilmore Girls lol

That's a chick flick thing, Maki. It shows that you're confident with your masculinity that you consent to (and admit to ) watching it.

I'll do you one up. I just agreed to go to a local Gay AA meeting Wednesday with a friend who is passing through town. I am neither gay nor alcoholic, so I may find myself among unfamiliar faces. He, however, is both, and feels most comfy in those specific environs.

Wish me luck. :bye:

Wubbie

12-05-2006, 08:16 PM

Great! I'll be on it, it looks like it'd be an awesome head... and it's giving me some GREAT ideas for an FO head.

3rdPersonPlural

12-05-2006, 08:22 PM

Great! I'll be on it, it looks like it'd be an awesome head... and it's giving me some GREAT ideas for an FO head.

Oh, my goodness, Wubbie. I glanced at that active FOGO head thread and felt so tempted to chime in that this config might be just the ticket. Then I thought that I might seem somewhat evangelical.

So YOU do it.

The Great Commission and all that.

Go thee forth.....

MaKiMaKi13

12-05-2006, 08:55 PM

That's a chick flick thing, Maki. It shows that you're confident with your masculinity that you consent to (and admit to ) watching it.

I'll do you one up. I just agreed to go to a local Gay AA meeting Wednesday with a friend who is passing through town. I am neither gay nor alcoholic, so I may find myself among unfamiliar faces. He, however, is both, and feels most comfy in those specific environs.

Wish me luck. :bye:
hah thanks for the compliment 3PP and i do wish you good luck, i doubt ill ever be to an AA meeting or a gay AA meeting at that not that im a homophobe or anything but hey there are always new experiences to be had in the world

but for the FOGO idea this pocket might actually work for that to since the two zip ties running through the head could potentially trap the ball

Wubbie

12-05-2006, 11:14 PM

I can picture it now... An insanely tight pinch, caused by... None other then Zip-Ties...

I guess I do have a bit of creativity after all, eh? Great idea 3PP.

3rdPersonPlural

12-05-2006, 11:47 PM

I can picture it now... An insanely tight pinch, caused by... None other then Zip-Ties...

I guess I do have a bit of creativity after all, eh? Great idea 3PP.

The rules explicitly permit 'synthetic materials' in the pocket. (Rule 1 Section 7 Article 1 in the NFHS Rulebook). That means that leather, pipe cleaners, polystyrene foam pellets, plastic cable ties, fibreglass corsets, and chickenwire mesh are allowed if you think they'll work. The sky is the limit.

Look at the shooters in this picture:

http://myspace-740.vo.llnwd.net/01513/04/71/1513141740_l.jpg

They're each made of a 14 inch zip tie looped from sidewall to scoop to sidewall, zipped tight (maybe TOO tight here), then wrapped with old hockey lace. The head is stiffened, the pocket is lengthened and narrowed, and if one elects to secure the ties to the scoop a little further apart and lay in a single conventional shooter per Maki's suggestion, you have a rail gun rocket launcher that is soft on groundballs and has a pocket where no one else does for Face Offs.

Yeah, a creative chap like you could fiddle around with this idea and make something even better. It's open source. 'Git bizzi',as an old flame used to say.

cali feeder

12-06-2006, 12:15 AM

And the thing about the zip-ties is that they won't "break in", persay, as a normal shooter or nylon would. Keeps everything consistent, which is always an upside.

nemiman18

12-06-2006, 02:10 PM

that is be a utiful

3rdPersonPlural

12-06-2006, 02:20 PM

Look at the pocket, Nemiman, not Cali Feeder's avatar. :grin:

MaKiMaKi13

12-06-2006, 02:59 PM

soo did my suggestions work for your whip/feel problem??

3rdPersonPlural

12-06-2006, 03:06 PM

My catch partner is still at school, so I won't know until he comes back.

I trust that they will, though, Maki.

Longpole5435

12-06-2006, 04:15 PM

I'm awaiting the results of your little whip test. I've got an excaliber around that isunstung and would be an excellent test of this pocket. I'd even use it at indoor :thumbsup:

3rdPersonPlural

12-06-2006, 05:17 PM

Whip test is completed and I'm happy to report that by moving the shooting rails out one notch on the Icon, tightening them with firmness but not pliers, and installing a rolled perpendicular shooter 4 diamonds down from the scoop, the whip has dissolved and the pocket seems more forgiving on less-than-perfect catches.

I should point out that proper adherence to the liberal scientific method dictates that I change only one design feature at a time to enable documentation of which changes (and then sets of changes) resulted in what performance alterations, but I got hasty.

The 'feel' is not all back to 'normal' yet, but that is mostly because the ball is rolling up a ramp, not up stairs, so to speak.

I'd post a picture, but my revision was rather hasty in execution and it is embarrassingly ugly. You're just going to have to visualize......

MaKiMaKi13

12-06-2006, 05:24 PM

hmm still the feel problem i suppose you could replace the hockey lace shooter with just a nylon one or maybe just use a few straight weaved shooters so you get the stair-like effect

try something like this http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/1293/minip1020887ia1.th.jpg (http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=minip1020887ia1.jpg)

3rdPersonPlural

12-06-2006, 05:33 PM

hmm still the feel problem i suppose you could replace the hockey lace shooter with just a nylon one or maybe just use a few straight weaved shooters so you get the stair-like effect

You're right, of course, but I'm opposed to adding parts that don't enhance performance, just tactile aesthetics.

What we feel the most in a conventional configuration is the ball slapping over the scoop as it launches. I've got the mesh zip tied tight to the scoop, and the ball is rolling on the shooters through the release, so this abrupt (and detectable) transition is just not there.

Now that the whip is gone, I think I can live with a silent release.

MaKiMaKi13

12-06-2006, 05:36 PM

o well since the main problem is solved i guess theres no point in fixing what isnt broken

3rdPersonPlural

12-06-2006, 06:02 PM

One other thing I noticed. The issue (my throwing partner) has this bad habit of throwing sort of loopy with a follow through across the body rather than straight toward the target. With a conventional pocket, this ain't such a bad thing. Put one of these pockets in his hands, though, and the pass hooks left like my golf shot.

I would caution kids with sloppy catching habits (like me) or imperfect throwing mechanics (like the issue) to tidy up their form before stepping onto a field with one of these.

MaKiMaKi13

12-06-2006, 06:34 PM

haha good analogy 3PP,if you want to solve your partners problem have them throw one handed with the snap of the wrist that way they points at the intended target and it also gives you a good feel for when your stick releases, although if you arent used to this you might have very sore wrists and forearms the next day

MaKiMaKi13

12-11-2006, 06:46 PM

yea double post but just giving 3PP some more feedback on the pocket, after the tourney on saturday pocket still holding up quite well groundballs are amazingly easy for him and still throwing crisp clean passes

3rdPersonPlural

12-11-2006, 07:27 PM

I wish you'd post some photos and a tutorial so I can make one that works as well as yours does.

I'd like to think that you did something I didn't do, or I did something you'd deem boneheaded, but I think that the real advantage you have is that you're just BETTER than me at stringing pockets.

Show me what you done, and how you did it, K?

MaKiMaKi13

12-12-2006, 05:49 AM

well here i attached the mesh to the scoop in the images there is a lot of space because i reversed the zip tie so it wouldnt click into place just so i could show you how i did it i only have like 10 zip ties
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/4517/p1030011cl5.th.jpg (http://img72.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1030011cl5.jpg)

here i strung the bottom 1/2 of the mesh pocket using sidewall string because you would want the pocket to sit ideally high in the head for scooping ground balls
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/5136/p1030013ho7.th.jpg (http://img186.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1030013ho7.jpg)

here i attached the mesh to the sidewalls instead of above the terminals this would keep it tight and without whip but would still allow a tight channel to form with the zipties coming from the scoop to the sidewall terminals
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/6682/p1030015nf8.th.jpg (http://img186.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1030015nf8.jpg)

just a different angle picture of the sidewalls
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/4379/p1030016oz7.th.jpg (http://img186.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1030016oz7.jpg)

a picture of the zipties used to form the channel of the pocket
http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/4818/p1030017xd5.th.jpg (http://img226.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1030017xd5.jpg)

here is the finished product the pocket is pounded in but i also skipped diamonds so that the pocket would form higher in the head
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/6970/p1030022si0.th.jpg (http://img186.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1030022si0.jpg)
o the zip ties would also be wrapped in hockey laces

yea i know its pretty messy and what not but i hope this helps, i also probably did something wrong that didnt follow the original skematics (sp?)

MaKiMaKi13

12-12-2006, 03:17 PM

need to give this a bump updated my last post with pictures

3rdPersonPlural

12-12-2006, 07:52 PM

I THINK that you left the zip ties looser than I did.

Also, didn't you put in a perpendicular shooter in your tutorial. That may be a problem for me here.

THANKS!!

dpole4life

12-26-2006, 07:14 PM

What would happen if you only took one shooter about 3/4 of the way up, and crossed it like a shooter to meet the other string, and then took the other up to halfway between the last shooter, and the scoop, took it across and then back down to meet up with the other shooter. basically have your channel, and shooters, but the shooters are only within your channel.

3rdPersonPlural

03-11-2007, 10:55 PM

d-pole I'm having trouble comprehending your query. Are you proposing a way to make this thing throw like a conventional pocket by setting in an unconventional course of shooters?

JRLaX

05-06-2007, 03:36 PM

im in middle school(6th grade)

I'm in 7th grade, and i strung a head that was pretty much like that, except the channeled shooters were literally IN the pocket. That way the ball just rolls out like a roller coaster. I strung it on my shortie and the D-pole I'm borrowing. It's got a really smooth release.
I saw this thread and I'm like,"Yay! I'm not mental!"
People really don't like different stringings that much. They prefer to stick to the basics, like 3 across and 2 across with one like a rainbow.
The only main difference between our is my pocket is lower and my top shooter is about 3-4 diamonds from the top.

peter

05-21-2007, 03:49 PM

Okay someone said to have really loose 6 diamond earlier in the thread. Well on my d-pole i have really loose 6 daimond with 2 straight shooters and a "n" as a third shooter. The pocket is pretty deep but i live in canada and i am pretty sure there is no limit on the pocket depths to a certain degree. Anyways. The hold on the stick is really good and it does not compromise the way the stick throws. I have played with it in all weather conditions and it does hold up in all weather conditions. My shooting strings are hockey laces, and someone was saying in the thread how the hockey laces would not be to dependable becasue they would loose there stiffness or something. Well the way my hockey laces are set up as shooters, they are loose and if they do lose there stifness it wont affect the way the stick throws. Now people must be thinking really loose mesh, huge pocket, this stick must hook or have loads of whip. Well you are wrong. I am the kind of person who does not like any kind of whip what so ever, so my stick has zero whip. So i believe this thread was talking about getting ideas for having the best posible concept for a defense stick. Is this a possible concept? So far it has worked for me. If anyone has this concept or is planning on doing it, how does it work for you?