View Full Version : Helmets in the CLA
BClax17
12-12-2006, 12:38 AM
Helmet Bulletin (http://www.bclacrosse.com/general/pdfs/TechBulletin01-07OTNY-ONeilMask.pdf)
We had a thread about this a while ago and I don't think anything was actually proven.
It really doesn't say what IS legal and from what I've heard, field helmets might be banned soon too. So what exactly are we supposed to wear?
#15Roadies
12-12-2006, 07:02 AM
This is what I heard from the podium at the last OLA AGM - that any mask that is not CSA 'hockey' approved for a hockey helmet will be phased out - this includes any lacrosse mask that does not flip up from the helmet like hockey masks do. (This is to allow access to the players face and neck area in case of injury.) Currently this means O'Neils, Nami's, Calcoats, etc. will not be approved for use on hockey helmets and therefore not permitted in CLA play.
Now, keep in the mind the mask flip requirement because ANY NOCSAE approved mask or helmet WILL be automatically approved. This means any field helmet by the big manufacturers and the Gait box helmet too (if it is NOCSAE - can't remember).
Now everyone knows that field lids DO NOT flip up like hockey helmets do, so how they disapprove non-flipping cages on hockey lids all the while approving non-flipping cages on field lids comes down to this: while the hockey helmets are CSA approved the combinations are not (i.e. a NAMI Sr. on a Bauer 5000) while the mask/helmet combos on the field lids are (NOCSAE certified that is). Now of course one of you is bound to say, "well, how about guys that change their masks on hockey helmets - for instance an iTech cage on a Bauer lid?" And for that I have no answer because it applies to hockey and not lacrosse.
In fact, after the discussion about helmets at the AGM is came down to this - don't invest in NAMI, O’Neil or Calcoat cages this year if you can avoid it because they are on the way out. Of course there is no timeframe for this change, but it could happen as early as 2007.
boxdad
12-12-2006, 11:22 AM
What about if you took your lacrosse cage and installed it on
your hockey helmet the same way hockey cages are rigged(hindged at front middle
snapped to helmet with straps in rear held in place with stops on side of helmet)?
I wonder if that was bought up?
KnightsLAXDad
12-12-2006, 11:49 AM
Generally speaking, items are tested and certified as "complete units", in this case helmet and cage together. Once you replace or substitute a component with a different one, then the certification is no longer valid because they have not tested that particular combination. This is really more a question of liability rather than practicality, but it's the way the certification world works. Now, O'Neill cages were decertified by the CLA because they would/could not provide proof of the specified liability insurance, not for safety reason.
So, boxdad, the answer to your question is no, a "lacrosse cage" on a hockey helmet would not be legal unless the combination had be CSA tested. Would it work just as well? Probably.
KLD.
... a "lacrosse cage" on a hockey helmet would not be legal unless the combination had be CSA tested.
KLD.
The CLA is only rejecting the ONTY Sr. mask and not the Jr. The Jr. hinges up, like a hocky mask, and therefore passes the access to the airway test. Do we know whether the CSA tested the ONTY Jr. mask on a hockey helmet?
As an aside, I find it odd that Chuck Miller's memo is dated January 1, 2007 . It's also not on the CLA website but it is on the BCLA website though.
riddlebox
12-12-2006, 05:39 PM
so does this basically mean that only hockey cages and lacrosse specific helmets will be allowed?
KnightsLAXDad
12-12-2006, 05:40 PM
No idea if they did or not, or where the access to air passage requirement comes from. It doesn't sound like a CSA requirement, more likely it's an internal or medically driven.
I noticed the 2007 date to and wondered.
laxcanada
12-12-2006, 07:43 PM
why couldn't they just unscrew the mask and remove it from the helmet in case of an emergency?
KnightsLAXDad
12-12-2006, 07:47 PM
I assume that if they needed to get to the throat area in an emergency, every second would count if it was serious. It would take much longer, asuming you had a screwdriver with you in the first place, then to unsnap a couple of straps. Right idea, but the execution may be prohibitively long.
BClax17
12-12-2006, 08:11 PM
Do you think this will be strictly enforced this year? I only got one year left of minor box and I'm not going to waste my money on a helmet that I'm only going to use for a year.
I seem to remember when they made the O'Neil Sr. cages illegal it took a while for any real action and the refs ususally just said, "get a new helmet soon" and let the kid play.
laxcanada
12-12-2006, 08:11 PM
true, I cant see this rule banning fiel lacrosse helmets though, because I belive the clips holding the cage on are plastic and can be cut to remove the mask
I'm not totally shure about this, I'll have to go look at mine in a minute
yes the clips on the helmet that hold the mask are plastic, just like the ones on football helmets
boxdad
12-12-2006, 08:19 PM
I guess santa will wait on a new cage.
wingslax5
12-12-2006, 08:24 PM
I heard that the visor on the identity was made so that it can be taken off for indoor play.
laxcanada
12-12-2006, 08:31 PM
I think they will eventualy just make the identity in a box version if it gets any sales in Canada, other than that it may even be illegal to remove it unless it has been approved without the visor
maskman
12-12-2006, 11:09 PM
From what I was told today. The OTNY junior and senior have been tested on hockey helmets and have both been okayed. That came directly from OTNY when I called. The O'Neill is still not allowed. Sorry Marty.
#15Roadies
12-13-2006, 07:09 AM
Interesting that there are conflicting reports, but not surprising as there was this confusion last time this issue was brought up. The OLA official on the Jr B podium was pretty sincere in recommending that teams and players not invest in cages, esp the O'Neil & NAMI since they were all but illegal. I presume the OTNY cages are the same as the NAMI cages.
I suppose one will have to wait to see if the cages + helmets make the CSA radar because, if I recall correctly, that is the certification required for OLA play.
KnightsLAXDad
12-13-2006, 11:18 AM
Does anyone know where the flip-up requirement stems from? CSA, insurance, some medical findings that the CLA has latched onto??
Honestly, this debate has been going on since I first got involved in lacrosse 4 years ago, so I don't see it being resolved quickly. The one memo looks like it has all kinds of holes in it in terms of its reasoning and looks like another misguided insurance/liability thing.
The "flip-up" requirement makes good sense but as a Lacrosse Trainer (plus Coach & Referee) I have never heard of it. I have taken hockey Trainer courses and in regard to access to airways, masks were never referred to in that way, probably because it's taken for granted that all "hockey" masks flip up. If this is the main criteria that would put an end to field lacrosse helmets. I have seen Boxdad's idea of modifying the ONTY / Nami 20/20 Sr. mask to flip up like the Jr. mask and I think that's an excellent idea.
You are right KLD about the CLA memo having a few holes in it. No offence to the author, who has done a lot of good things for lacrosse over the years, but memos such as this probably should be vetted by a lawyer for liabilty reasons before they are released (sad to say but true).
One last thing, the 2006 rule re the ONTY / Nami 20/20 Sr. mask was that it was allowed for Bantam age players (13 & 14 yrs) and up PROVIDED THAT it was fitted to a size large hockey helmet. That was a bit hard to enforce. I scanned the OLA website and I could not find the equipment rules on it - I know they were there at the end of last season.
MBLacrosse
12-13-2006, 06:58 PM
I'm pretty sure the flip up reasoning is because with an oneal or nami cage it is fixed and the entire helmet must be removed to gain access to an airway. If someone is knocked unconscious and happens to stop breathing, it is first not a good idea to remove the helmet because of the chances of neck injury.with a flip up, you can instantly access airways by flipping up the mask. That would be the only reasoning i could see behind it
boxdad
12-14-2006, 08:32 AM
True about the Oneal ,Nami cages but I went to The Lax shop last night
to look at helmets ,and Lacrosse helmets have no means to gain fast
acsess to airways.Most helmets took 5 to 6 screws to remove the cage
or cutting the plastic cage tabs. Are all trainers going to be required to
have bolt cutters in thier kit so they can gain fast airway acsess when a child
has swallowed his tounge and is turning purple?
MBLacrosse
12-15-2006, 01:08 AM
True about the Oneal ,Nami cages but I went to The Lax shop last night
to look at helmets ,and Lacrosse helmets have no means to gain fast
acsess to airways.Most helmets took 5 to 6 screws to remove the cage
or cutting the plastic cage tabs. Are all trainers going to be required to
have bolt cutters in thier kit so they can gain fast airway acsess when a child
has swallowed his tounge and is turning purple?
that is a great point. Lacrosse helmets also fit so much tighter and its very hard to take one off rather than snapping off a chin strap and easily sliding a head out of a helmet that has a nami or oneal cage on it.
K Baz
12-15-2006, 09:13 AM
Have the kids wear them like most NLL or senior players and we will be fine. Most NLLer's/senior wear the chin strap so a strong wind would blow the helmet off. May increase head/throat injuries in the younger players but atleast this way we could get at there heads/throats once the accident(s) happened.
RockStar
12-15-2006, 10:36 AM
Have the kids wear them like most NLL or senior players and we will be fine. Most NLLer's/senior wear the chin strap so a strong wind would blow the helmet off. May increase head/throat injuries in the younger players but atleast this way we could get at there heads/throats once the accident(s) happened.
???
We don't need kids being trained at the John Tavares school of helmet fitting.
Helmets serve their intended function best when they're still strapped to the head.
K Baz
12-15-2006, 11:51 AM
Satire is one of the most imprecise literary terms; usually it has a very definite target, which may be a person or group of people, an idea or attitude, an institution or a social practice. In any case the target is held up to a ridicule that is often quite merciless, and sometimes very angry; ideally in the hope of shaming it into reform. A very common, almost defining feature of satire is a strong vein of irony or sarcasm, in fact satirical writing or drama very often professes to approve values that are the diametric opposite of what the writer actually wishes to promote.
/Have a 4 point on my RBK
RockStar
12-15-2006, 12:28 PM
Satire is .......
Thank you for the English lesson, but I was already aware of what satire is.
Your previous post had no indication that it was intended to be satire.
[QUOTE=K Baz]Satire is one ......
If you want to use satire you should consider the age of ALL of the people who are on this forum. A lot of the younger ones won't get it.
Also, if you are going to quote something from Wikipeda you should say so otherwise some of us might think you wrote it. There's a word for that.
boxdad
12-16-2006, 08:38 AM
K Fed ????? re:satire
boxdad
12-16-2006, 08:48 AM
Before we were derailed the topic was cages and helmets.I wonder if any of the cage
manifactures are aware of what is going on.They may be working on a CSA/NOCSAE
kit to make Oneil, Nami etc cages meet the flip up rule.
RockStar
12-16-2006, 09:14 AM
.........They may be working on a CSA/NOCSAE
kit to make Oneil, Nami etc cages meet the flip up rule.
If you're a little bit clever, you can custom mod an O'Neill or Nami senior to flip up.
You just bolt it to the top, get rid of the side clips and bolts, and use tight snap straps clipped to the snaps at the ears.
I'm actually not sure where the hell they decided flip-ups were a good idea.....I mean football's far worse for head and neck injuries, yet no one's advocating a need for flip-up masks there.
Anyone have a copy of the technical bulletin that discusses this? My reffing clinic's not for several months yet, and the OLA hasn't sent me a thing.
edit to add: OK, I'm a dummy, there's a link in the first post!
boxdad
12-16-2006, 10:18 AM
If you're a little bit clever, you can custom mod an O'Neill or Nami senior to flip up
I can do no problem but it has no CSA or NOCSAE approval.
see post 12\12 /06 at 12;22 pm
The cage makers need to be made aware if cage ban is true.
RockStar
12-16-2006, 10:27 AM
........I can do no problem but it has no CSA or NOCSAE approval........
Funny thing is there never was CSA for hockey helmet with lacrosse mask.
The end user is made responsible to install an aftermarket mask onto the helmet himself. Until they sell the helmets pre-fitted with the mask, there's no way for CSA to meaningfully approve it
My kit - a RBK helmet, an O'Neill pro, and hardware from an Itech goalie helmet repair kit holding it all together.
Helmet had CSA originally. Mask might have had CSA originally (I doubt it, there's no tag, nor is there any with any lacrosse cage I've seen). The installation job certainly has no CSA stamp of approval, and other than my cage being illegal for minor, I don't thinkthe situation is any different for thousands of minor players.
( My old bucket is even better for safety - Rusty, dented Cooper SFG110 cage fitted to Cooper SK2000 with parts from same Itech goalie kit!)
boxdad
12-16-2006, 10:56 AM
I just want to know if I should drop the $100
on cages for my sons.ONTY jr seem to be ok but I would like a sure answer.
Santa loves Lacrosse in our house.
I just want to know if I should drop the $100
on cages for my sons.ONTY jr seem to be ok but I would like a sure answer.
Santa loves Lacrosse in our house.
The CLA website indicates that the ONTY Jr. is approved. The CLA memo that started this thread doesn't say that that will change. If you are in doubt contact the CLA, OLA or even one of the Equipment Committee members.
boxdad
12-21-2006, 07:54 AM
From what I was told today. The OTNY junior and senior have been tested on hockey helmets and have both been okayed. That came directly from OTNY when I called. The O'Neill is still not allowed. Sorry Marty.
At what age group can they wear a SR cage.
My eldest was born in 1994.
At what age group can they wear a SR cage.
My eldest was born in 1994.
The 2006 rule was, Bantam age players (13 & 14 yr olds) could wear the Sr. mask provided that they wear a size large helmet. There used to be an equipment guide on the OLA website but I can't seem to find it. I think it has been removed and I don't know whether this will be the rule in 2007.
This year Bantam age players will be those born in 1993 and 1994 so you should be OK provided your kid has a big head (lol). It seems impractical to me that Coaches, Referees and parents should have to deal with this; some Bantam players can and some can't wear the Sr. mask. I would hate to think some "small headed" players are wearing a size large helmet just they comply with the rule.
boxdad
12-21-2006, 11:11 AM
test
cant get 2nd page
LacrosseDan
12-22-2006, 03:18 PM
Thats total BS if they need to get to a players face they can just undo the clips on the side of the helmet.
Thats total BS if they need to get to a players face they can just undo the clips on the side of the helmet.
The point is that getting to a player's airway (face / mouth) is easier if he has a hinged mask. If the player has a permanently fixed mask the helmet would have to removed to get to his airway. If that player has head and/or neck injuries that makes removing his helmet a lot more difficult. If he has those injuries and there are no airway issues, most Trainers would leave the helmet on until the player recieved proper medical care as removing the helmet could aggravate the injury.
LacrosseDan
12-26-2006, 11:02 PM
Are we still allowed to use field helmets?
#15Roadies
12-27-2006, 12:36 AM
"Are we still allowed to use field helmets?"
Yes, so long as they NOSCAE certified.
"Are we still allowed to use field helmets?"
Yes, so long as they NOSCAE certified.
That's my understanding too. However, the use of field helmets seems to fly in the face of what the CLA Technical Bulletin that started this thread identifies as a problem (access to airways).
I find it odd that a few years ago there was a push by some at the CLA for field helmets only. It was never clear to me what the reasons were but there was resistance not so much for technical, safety, etc. reasons but rather for cost reasons. In particular, the question was; why should should players, the majority of which also play hockey, have to own 2 helmets (one for each sport)? I think the CLA realized that it would be harder to sell the game to new players if before you got started you had to shell $150 to $200 for a lacrosse specific helmet.