Stealth

[WhoKnows]

I think the Stealth would be a lot better if they made a trade for a superstar goal scorer

[RockStar]

Guess they should never have traded Josh Sanderson.....he makes everyone score goals.

Anyway, Sanderson's favourite target Colin Doyle is now heading to SJ, so if that was the only thing wrong with the team.......

[manup5183]

I think they will do fine this year. I was browsing the roster and i realized that almost everysingle player, is canadian.

[tastycakes]

There must be more behind this really lopsided trade than meets the eyes. I thought Doyle was one of those Rock untouchables, someone Watters would never have allowed to leave the team. I smell a rat. Either way, they got fleeced on the trade and look even less likely to do any damage this year.

[BClax17]

I guess Doyle will be playing out west this summer.

[WhoKnows]

With Cosmo is net, the Stealth could surprise some people now that they have some firepower. Last year they averaged under 10 GAA for most of the season. If they can score double digits they should be in good shape.

[RockStar]

...........I thought Doyle was one of those Rock untouchables...........

Yup. He's been their best offensive player since maybe 2001, and has been among the best since the Raiders first season.

That said, I thought he played more selfishly and with a lot less hustle last winter. He certainly didn't look sharp in the one preseason game I caught. Just a wild guess, but maybe coach Clark called him out for a lack of effort and this led to a spat.

Geez, I hope Benesch is good! Is he at least a lefty? I never get to see K-W, so haven't seen Benesch for a couple years and can't rightly remember.

[tastycakes]

Yup. He's been their best offensive player since maybe 2001, and has been among the best since the Raiders first season.

That said, I thought he played more selfishly and with a lot less hustle last winter. He certainly didn't look sharp in the one preseason game I caught. Just a wild guess, but maybe coach Clark called him out for a lack of effort and this led to a spat.

Geez, I hope Benesch is good! Is he at least a lefty? I never get to see K-W, so haven't seen Benesch for a couple years and can't rightly remember.
Yes he is a lefty and was good at the junior a level, but there is a big difference between the two. Just read the Rock press release and they highlight the fact Benesch had some multi goal games in SCRIMMAGES!!! Unreal! You trade one of the best pure goal scorers in the NLL for a kid that you hype up to the masses by saying he scored a couple goals in a god damn pre season scrimmages. I hope that Clark and his new crew has at least seen Benesch play a game and are not buying into the hype, becasue he was not the best overall talent in the draft as his number one overall pick suggests. I think something went sour in the Rock camp too, but I would hope it was more than a preceived lack of effort from a new head coach, who has won a Mann Cup and multiply pro cups with said player. I am just amazed at the gong show the Rock have turned into. They will be depending way too much on some old timers and some young pups. I just have never seen this scenario really work for any team in any league.

[livinglegend]

its those two draft picks they were looking at. those draft years have some unbelievable players coming up. There looking to get Alex gagic in 08 and garret bilings in 09. both of them will make a HUGE impact once they make it to the nll

[RockStar]

its those two draft picks they were looking at. those draft years have some unbelievable players coming up. There looking to get Alex gagic in 08 and garret bilings in 09. both of them will make a HUGE impact once they make it to the nll

You heard it here first - Gajic and Billings are never going to put up numbers that match what Colin Doyle has already marked.

Besides, the geniuses that are running the show in Torontoland these days seem to prefer to draft from Barrie, so I doubt we'll see any of the Gajic family, or any other westerners here anytime soon.

[tastycakes]

its those two draft picks they were looking at. those draft years have some unbelievable players coming up. There looking to get Alex gagic in 08 and garret bilings in 09. both of them will make a HUGE impact once they make it to the nll
And all they have to do is hope that San Jose finishes last in those two years and that there is no expansion, both scenarios are pretty unlikely if they want a crack at first overall. I'd also rather have Greer or Veltman over Gagic and Sanderson and others will make 09 just as sweet on top of Billings. Even next year already has some high profile players that San Jose will have a higher crack at than the Rock no matter where either team finishes. I don't think Clark, Bullen or Kloplfer have any idea who is available (their draft this year was a joke outside of the no brainer in Macleod). This coaching staff and front office is proving to be very out of touch.

[Timbermen]

As good a player as Doyle is, I think the Rock had to do something. They were heading into this season with the same roster that went 8-8 last year (only they're all one year older now). Other teams in the East have improved a lot, maybe they figured it was time to tear it down a bit and starting building for the future with a youngster like Benesch and the draft picks.

[#15Roadies]

I have to agree Timbermen. I don't think there is anyone that can ~replace~ Doyle, but maybe that isn't the point. Maybe there are several fronts to this, including the need for an NLL foothold in California; the Rock need to re-focus their offence and here's to hoping Aaron Wilson can reach even newer heights now.

[Crusader9]

One thing no one has mentioned is the defender Chad Thompson in the deal. Yes, the Rock need youth, athleticism, and speed on defense, but isn't this Thompson the one from Orillia, who played Jr. B and Sr. A/B in Barrie? Oh wait, and isn't one of their "new" defenders Brad MacArthur who coaches in Orillia and plays Sr. A in Barrie?.....I didn't realize Barrie & Orillia were such the hotbed of lacrosse to singlehandedly produce a professional lacrosse team......anyone like the name "Barrie Rock"....

This is just the beginning of the "gong show".....good luck Rock fans!!!!!!

[RockStar]

Doyle's huge, but the more I think about it, I'm starting to see a bit of reason.

Con:
Without Doyle, I think Toronto's set 5-on-5 and powerplay offense is going to suffer by a goal or two per game*.

Pro:
I think Toronto is now better and younger out of the back door. I also think that they have added two real transition threats and a promising left handed scorer.

If you also look at the other acquisitions, they have added a proven faceoff man who could take them from 50% wins to 60% plus.

(You might gain a tiny bit by deletion too.......The Rock were consistently burned by fast break goals last season. Doyle is always one of the slowest attackers to leave the floor, and if he gets caught out, he's a terrible defenseman.)

Now, if you get those extra possessions, and your D allows a goal fewer per game, plus you bury an extra transition goal per game, the net result could actually make up for the loss of Doyle.

Not committing to saying that the trade will work out in the Rock's favour, but it's probably not as one-sided as initially thought.

*Basis - Take a look at Rochester's drop in goal production during the season that John Grant missed - IIRC, in a very similar offense, it was down by only about one per game. Doyle's impact is certainly huge, but it's not much if any bigger than John Grant's.

........I didn't realize Barrie & Orillia were such the hotbed of lacrosse to singlehandedly produce a professional lacrosse team..........

You'd actually be very surprised at how many players from Orillia are solid NLL players now and before. A number came from the Junior 'A' Kings ca. 2002. Try Wiles, Zywicki, (and Thompson) for starters.

[dougm]

if it wasn't for that freak brodie, thompson would had been the #1 defensive prospect. when philly traded wiles & chad for regan & a pick, i was ok w/ wiles as i was getting back regan but i saw no need to give up a pick for thompson. on that part of the trade, i think toronto improved itself.

the issue will be that if toronto wants these kids to make an impact - the rock will run like its the mill all over again. if they play it slow & tight, not much this year.

[RockStar]

........the issue will be that if toronto wants these kids to make an impact - the rock will run like its the mill all over again. if they play it slow & tight, not much this year.

I have a feeling they're looking to run this year. Every year they won they had at least a couple transition threats. Clark knows this as well as anyone.

With the two new acquisitions, plus Marshall, Driscoll, and Merrill, this is as mobile a d-crew as they've ever had.

I just hope it's a tough enough crew to limit damage when playing 5v5 against big attackers like Grant.

[tastycakes]

I have a feeling they're looking to run this year. Every year they won they had at least a couple transition threats. Clark knows this as well as anyone.

With the two new acquisitions, plus Marshall, Driscoll, and Merrill, this is as mobile a d-crew as they've ever had.

I just hope it's a tough enough crew to limit damage when playing 5v5 against big attackers like Grant.
The only difference is, they didn't bring any marquee guys to do this. Fines has proved to be just average in the NLL and Thompson looked ok last year from what I heard, but nothing special, on either Philadelphia or San Jose. I just don't see this going well. Does Doyle and two first round picks, even without Halls, not garner a top notch offensive defender in this league?

[simcoelaxx]

Don't most coaches bring in people they are familliar with? One's they know will perform for them? I don't see the big deal here...as a fan of the Rock>>I think it is good....especially long term.

[tastycakes]

Don't most coaches bring in people they are familliar with? One's they know will perform for them? I don't see the big deal here...as a fan of the Rock>>I think it is good....especially long term.
How is bringing three unproven pro players for one of the best scorers in league history, who still probably could have gone up to ten years (so long term he would have been there too), a good thing? Isn't Clark familiar with Doyle, who he has won Mann and NLL Cups with? I love watching the young kids play, but to me this trade just doesn't add up.

[simcoelaxx]

three unproven pro players for one of the best scorers in league history, who still probably could have gone up to ten years (so long term he would have been there too), a good thing? Isn't Clark familiar with Doyle, who he has won Mann and NLL Cups with? I love watching the young kids play, but to me this trade just doesn't add up.

I am unsure about unproven...these guys got picked up for a reason...but aren't most young prospects "unproven"? Aren't they given chances so that they could prove themselves?

Anyhow...I looked at some stuff on nll.com, and if transition points are what Toronto is looking for..Fines had more than anybody else on TO last year...by a considerable margin. Thompson...defender who can score..Benesch..well SJ took him for something.

I just don't buy the whol lakeshore/rock/excelsiro scenario...most of the east teams are like that..loaded with guys who are familiar with each other.

If it doesn't add up...tells me there is more to it also, which unless someone involved spills their guts, we will never know.

Anyhow...season is around the bend for the Rock...good luck to them.

[tastycakes]

I am unsure about unproven...these guys got picked up for a reason...but aren't most young prospects "unproven"? Aren't they given chances so that they could prove themselves?

Anyhow...I looked at some stuff on nll.com, and if transition points are what Toronto is looking for..Fines had more than anybody else on TO last year...by a considerable margin. Thompson...defender who can score..Benesch..well SJ took him for something.

I just don't buy the whol lakeshore/rock/excelsiro scenario...most of the east teams are like that..loaded with guys who are familiar with each other.

If it doesn't add up...tells me there is more to it also, which unless someone involved spills their guts, we will never know.

Anyhow...season is around the bend for the Rock...good luck to them.
This'll be Fines third year in the league and he averaged a goal a game last year. First on the Rock defense, but their defense couldn't score to save their lives, so that's not really that great of a stat. Thompson scored all of seven last year, not impressive really. SJ took him and then dealt him pretty quickly, so maybe he wasn't as impressive as they thought. I can bet SJ (and maybe Toronto) were the only ones that would have taken him ahead of the likes of Snider, Iannucci, Grimes and others. I think Rochester is really the only team in the East that has loaded with summer-like talent, and we're talking Mann Cup champsions Peterborough, not Barrie, who has yet to do anything since entering the league. Rochester's GM is also not the guy that is bringing these guys aboard, like going on in Toronto right now. Yes, you give prospects a chance to prove themselve, but at the rate of Doyle? Not sure about that.

[Ottos]

I looked at some stuff on nll.com, and if transition points are what Toronto is looking for..Fines had more than anybody else on TO last year...by a considerable margin. Thompson...defender who can score..Benesch..well SJ took him for something.

Although Fines was listed as defender/transition last year...he played as a forward & on PP. During the SJ training camp, Benesch was very "soft".

[RockStar]

Wilson 3, Sanderson/Manning/Kruger 1 each.

This is the high-octane transition team that the Rock built by trading Doyle (and MacDonald, and Beisel).

Sheesh. Mr0and4 is going to be in Toronto before long, and I'm just biding my time waiting to see how quick ownership pulls the trigger on this coaching staff (They excused Comeau for a 2-4 start, but held Sanderson till the end of the season with an 0-4 start).

[BlueDevils16]

I agree with there needing to be something more tha meets the eye with than this obviously one-sided trade in the favour of SJ...Colin Doyle is the most well-rounded offensive guy in the NLL, hands down, and there's no was T.O Rock would have allowed Colin Doyle to go ANYWHERE unless they knew that these new guys would bring something to the team that Doyle couldn't...Although trading Doyle away is probably one of the stupidest things the Rock could have done, they must have seen something that didn't make it seem so ludicrous, however, Doyle is now lighting it up in SJ, and the Rock are hurting without him...Doyle was the Rock's biggest asset and he was dealt away like a rookie, could be a mistake that costs the Rock the cup this year.

[RockStar]

...........could be a mistake that costs the Rock the cup this year.
Well, if they kept Doyle, they hadn't done much to change since last year (8-8 and excused from the playoffs in the first round). With that, I truthfully didn't figure they were serious cup contenders with or without Doyle.

I guess I only think trading Doyle is the mistake that may cost them a road playoff game!

[BClax17]

I thought I had; San Jose was sucking. Zywicki had a great summer at the World Games and was destined to have a great year. Maybe the NLL wanted another big name player to be in San Jose to play with Zywicki so they could be good and actually draw a crowd. Toronto gave up too much for too little, perhaps they were pressured into trading Doyle because they already had a once potent offense and losing one player would fit them fine and give the Stealth someone to use. Now I'm not one for conspiracies but do you think the NLL would do that to keep the Stealth franchise at bay?

[tastycakes]

I am unsure about unproven...these guys got picked up for a reason...but aren't most young prospects "unproven"? Aren't they given chances so that they could prove themselves?

Anyhow...I looked at some stuff on nll.com, and if transition points are what Toronto is looking for..Fines had more than anybody else on TO last year...by a considerable margin. Thompson...defender who can score..Benesch..well SJ took him for something.

I just don't buy the whol lakeshore/rock/excelsiro scenario...most of the east teams are like that..loaded with guys who are familiar with each other.

If it doesn't add up...tells me there is more to it also, which unless someone involved spills their guts, we will never know.

Anyhow...season is around the bend for the Rock...good luck to them.
Four transition goals in three games, maybe the worst total in the league. Fines has all of one, probably because he spends most of his time in the box though. Fines and Thompson have two of the worst shooting percentages on the team and even league for that matter. Beisel's six points in four games doubles up any Rock tranny, but for some reason he went to Arizona in another dumb Rock trade.

[RockStar]

Four transition goals in three games, maybe the worst total in the league. Fines has all of one, probably because he spends most of his time in the box though. Fines and Thompson have two of the worst shooting percentages on the team and even league for that matter. Beisel's six points in four games doubles up any Rock tranny, but for some reason he went to Arizona in another dumb Rock trade.

You beat me to it.

I ran the numbers on this new and improved transition team myself, and have to say that we'd be far better if Doyle and Beisel were still here. (I understand MacDonald had to go west for his day job, so figure he should have been worth a decent d-man or high draft pick from AZ.)


Offense is really hurting without Doyle there to take most of the punishment and to be the no. 1 target for Sanderson's setup work.

[Hooligan]

From seeing the Rock in Philly this weekend, one of the glaring differences between this year's team, and past Rock teams was the lack of size. These guys were all tiny! Both Sandersons, Manning, Wilson (who's still one of my favorite players) and most of your defense were all dwarfed by the much bigger Philly Wings. This is the first time I ever saw something like that...the Wings outsizing the Rock. Canadian teams are supposed to be the big ones, leaving the Americans to deal with the speed. This isn't Rock lacrosse.

Chad Thompson on offense is another thing that confused me. You have a wrecking ball defenseman out there, ready to use, and you put him on offense? What are you thinking Glen Clark? Thompson didn't even touch the ball that I recall. If you need someone out there that bad to set picks, you really need to get some more size on your team. I mean, without O'Brien and Thompson last night in the Wings v Rock game, Toronto would have had to take all their shots outside 20 feet from the net. They didn't penetrate well. Hell, if it wasn't for Wilson's speed, they might not have even gotten anyone to the net consistently at all.

[RockStar]

..........These guys were all tiny! Both Sandersons, Manning, Wilson (who's still one of my favorite players) and most of your defense were all dwarfed by the much bigger Philly Wings............

The little guys, Sanderson, Wilson, Kruger all played for Brampton last summer. They had extraordinary trouble getting inside against bigger tougher defenses like Peterborough's.

Clark and Koepfler should have noticed this. If they did, they might have realized that trading the one big strong guy who takes most of the punishment and can crash through a defense to get at the crease better than almost anyone in the league maybe wasn't such a great idea.

With the league calling penalties for looking at attackers the wrong way this year, Doyle could have had a career year with Sanderson feeding him.

I still wish I was a fly on the wall in training camp........only valid reason I can see for this trade is a war of words between Doyle and Clark.

[wcwarriorlax]

i went to the game last night and the stealth looked horible they were sloppy and the best part was running on the field with the spy girls before the game
100th POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[manup5183]

I also was at the game yesterday. I saw ALOT of plays blown from bad passes.

[dougm]

stealth traded moss to colorado for burkholder and 2007 1st round pick. burkholder helps the offensively challenged stealth but govett continues to trade 1st round picks. you can't argue w/ winning a cup along the way but that gives sj i think 3 first rounders for this draft - 1 they own, 1 from tor and now 1 from col.

[RockStar]

.......burkholder helps the offensively challenged stealth.....

You know, Colin Doyle hasn't make much difference to the bottom line (wins). Burkholder can't hurt, but is he going to be any kind of saviour? There is potential, but facts are that he's had trouble cracking the starting rotation everywhere he's been.

At least this year, I'll get to see Moss play in Toronto.

[Hooligan]

I still don't understand why Philadelphia fans have this grandeuresque vision of Andrew Burkholder. If he was so friggin good, wouldn't the 3 teams that have had him since leaving Philly tried just a bit harder to keep him?

Flat out, Burkholder = huge disappointment.

[dougm]

I still don't understand why Philadelphia fans have this grandeuresque vision of Andrew Burkholder. If he was so friggin good, wouldn't the 3 teams that have had him since leaving Philly tried just a bit harder to keep him?

Flat out, Burkholder = huge disappointment.

well on the floor, andrew has provided goals + loosies and the woolies needed him to come up big for their playoff run. before he bummed his knee in philly, we were looking at a playoff berth. in rochester, you gonna sit accursi or one of the evans' brothers? in colorado, well you would figure that w/ the loss of gill, stroup & jalbert that he could find floor time, but he wasn't getting it. he wouldn't be the first player to be moved alot despite putting up decent numbers.

[stealthfan37]

Call me stupid, but I think the stealth are missing Ryan Boyle. Ryan Boyle was a good goal scorer, and though he was a rookie last year, i think he could have developed into a great force for the stealth.

[BClax17]

Last year was actually his second year. He experianced quite the sophmore slump after winning the Rookie Of The Year Award the year before. Brodie is kinda having the same thing this year, hopefully he will pick it up.

[Hooligan]

Burkholder wasn't rookie of the year. He did make the "all rookie team", though.

Maybe its just me, I don't believe he's the real deal. He is a nice role player though.

[RockStar]

Call me stupid, but I think the stealth are missing Ryan Boyle. Ryan Boyle was a good goal scorer, and though he was a rookie last year, i think he could have developed into a great force for the stealth.
Your homework assignment is to research his production drop between 05 and 06.

He was actually a sophomore last year and he suffered big time sophomore jinx when opponents fully realized what a threat he was and keyed in on him. Hell, check the Stealth offense numbers for those two years as well.....seemed like the whole offense really struggled last year, and maybe a big part of this was shutting down the best setup man they had.

[ND14]

He's putting up better numbers this year though... 31 points in 6 games.

[stealthfan37]

Your homework assignment is to research his production drop between 05 and 06.

He was actually a sophomore last year and he suffered big time sophomore jinx when opponents fully realized what a threat he was and keyed in on him. Hell, check the Stealth offense numbers for those two years as well.....seemed like the whole offense really struggled last year, and maybe a big part of this was shutting down the best setup man they had.


okay, i guess my facts were kinda off...but i still think they should have kept him