Humans...Are we still evolving?

[jedimasterPIMP]

Ok so this topic came up in one of my classes again today so I decided to bring the debate here to see what other people think.

I think that humans, as a species, have stopped evolving. I say this based on the fact that the weak in society are allowed to live (disabled people, complete morons, and so on). This is not a bad thing because it shows the compassion of humanity and all that because no matter what is wrong with people they are still human and deserve our help to live.

However, this leads to a stop in evolution of humans as a species. The people with genes that give them an advantage over most other people (strength, speed, intelligence) live on in life and pass their genes on, but so do the people with less desirable traits that gives them no advantage in life.

This of course leads to humans as a species stop evolving because both the strong and weak live leading to no progress at all.

If anything I think that there will be several new species of humans to pop up because I think there will start to be a genetic divide within the economic levels of the world. But thats a different conversation.

Ok so for a few guide lines I did not make this trying to offend anyone that doesn't believe in evolution. I am very religious but I believe in evolution so don't think I am against all you religious people. And also, evolution is very different than just random genetic mutation so know the difference if your gonna post. So what do you guys think?

[ShockerAutc]

I'd figure we're still evolving but will not be around long enough to see its outcome. But, thats interesting, since both the strong and weak survive. Maybe it would slow the process down?

[dtl42]

maybe physically we have stopped evolving but now we are evolving in our philosophy and our thinking process, just like you said, we show compassion, which is a trait that those cavemen didnt have, we are also evolving everything around us, with new technologies growing and expanding and changing, that is a form of evolution

[THEWALL16]

Your science is sounds like what some eugenics advocates would say

[jedimasterPIMP]

Your science is sounds like what some eugenics advocates would say
No way man, I never said I was planing on doing any thing about like we should "weed out the bad". I'm against anything like that, I am just merely drawing my own conclusion on what I observe, thats all.

[dtl42]

but what you are saying implies that naturally the bad will be weeded out, and most eugenics agree that will happen eventually, no matter what humans do

[sammyduelist]

However, the 'weak' are still less likely to reproduce. Those with defects may find it harder to find someone to mate with since people find them scary/weird/unattractive. Yes they survive, but they have to produce offspring.

[chattlax2]

maybe physically we have stopped evolving but now we are evolving in our philosophy and our thinking process, just like you said, we show compassion, which is a trait that those cavemen didnt have, we are also evolving everything around us, with new technologies growing and expanding and changing, that is a form of evolution

i agree completely..we are studying this right now in bioligy and charles darwin

[laxiceman]

On this topic, anyone think that using so many resources to help 'mentally impaired' people out is slightly wrong? For one thing, sometimes they get more resources than normal children. I only have a problem with this since I don't care for the fact that my kids one day could get less educational aid, then a kid who has down syndrome, etc. What do those people give back to the world. Nothing. The consume resources, and don't return any. In all honestly, the resources, and most of the money should go to capabled children that have a real chance of growing up to being something important and will end up contributing to society,.

I know it is horrible to say, but really, life is supposed to be survival of the fittest, not "fittest help out the unfit" although that is how our society has evolved. I don't know, we shouldn't just abandon those people, but there shouldn't be so many resources set aside for them. I don't know, its not a fun topic, and I bet I'll be flamed for what I said, but oh well, the situation sucks, and those are my views.

[mikeman5]

but what you are saying implies that naturally the bad will be weeded out, and most eugenics agree that will happen eventually, no matter what humans do



He's not saying that at all, I mean if you think about it, with programs that help the poor and those less fortunate, everyone survives, where as, if we lived in an unorganized society, those who could not do what they needed to do to survive would die.

Things like insulin shots for diabetes do the same thing. I don't know much about diabetes, but if we did not have doctors and the availability of medical care, people with diabetes would die quciker and therefore not live on and pass on their traits which over a long perioid of time would result in not as many people with diabetes (hence evolving). But because we have great medical care, this does not happen and people with diabetes are able to live a healthy life.

[Lax r us]

I think that we have have started slowly evolving, you see back when we were evolving we needed to because of certain condishions. So now I think we don't need to evolve so we aren't as fast. But what do I know?

[mikeman5]

On this topic, anyone think that using so many resources to help 'mentally impaired' people out is slightly wrong? For one thing, sometimes they get more resources than normal children. I only have a problem with this since I don't care for the fact that my kids one day could get less educational aid, then a kid who has down syndrome, etc. What do those people give back to the world. Nothing. The consume resources, and don't return any. In all honestly, the resources, and most of the money should go to capabled children that have a real chance of growing up to being something important and will end up contributing to society,.

I know it is horrible to say, but really, life is supposed to be survival of the fittest, not "fittest help out the unfit" although that is how our society has evolved. I don't know, we shouldn't just abandon those people, but there shouldn't be so many resources set aside for them. I don't know, its not a fun topic, and I bet I'll be flamed for what I said, but oh well, the situation sucks, and those are my views.


yeah, I kind of understand your point, but you can't not help people because they are "weaker." The idea is to give everyone the chance to live which in turn slows evolution because we are resisting natural selection

[dtl42]

if we just stick to the "survival of the fittest" we will never evolve, by extending these peoples' lives' we are able to grow and appreciate life more, which will hopefully be a catalyst for us to find medicines and tools to extend our own lives, long after these "weaks" have died

[dtl42]

Ok so this topic came up in one of my classes again today so I decided to bring the debate here to see what other people think.

I think that humans, as a species, have stopped evolving. I say this based on the fact that the weak in society are allowed to live (disabled people, complete morons, and so on). This is not a bad thing because it shows the compassion of humanity and all that because no matter what is wrong with people they are still human and deserve our help to live.

However, this leads to a stop in evolution of humans as a species. The people with genes that give them an advantage over most other people (strength, speed, intelligence) live on in life and pass their genes on, but so do the people with less desirable traits that gives them no advantage in life.

This of course leads to humans as a species stop evolving because both the strong and weak live leading to no progress at all.

If anything I think that there will be several new species of humans to pop up because I think there will start to be a genetic divide within the economic levels of the world. But thats a different conversation.

Ok so for a few guide lines I did not make this trying to offend anyone that doesn't believe in evolution. I am very religious but I believe in evolution so don't think I am against all you religious people. And also, evolution is very different than just random genetic mutation so know the difference if your gonna post. So what do you guys think?

even though i suggested maybe we stopped evolving physically, even that is untrue, the average height of man has been increasing drastically since atleast the late 1800s

[mikeman5]

if we just stick to the "survival of the fittest" we will never evolve, by extending these peoples' lives' we are able to grow and appreciate life more, which will hopefully be a catalyst for us to find medicines and tools to extend our own lives, long after these "weaks" have died


no, no, that's backwards. With survival of the fittest, the one's fittest to survive live on. Like let's say the fastest tigers survive and the slow one's die. The fast one's are able to live long lives and pass on their 'fast' genes. The slow ones die off early and will not be able to pass on their traits. This in turn will cause the species to evolve. It's like the things with the birds on the Galapagos island.

[jedimasterPIMP]

However, the 'weak' are still less likely to reproduce. Those with defects may find it harder to find someone to mate with since people find them scary/weird/unattractive. Yes they survive, but they have to produce offspring.
You should take a look around next time you are out somewhere and see the kinds of people that have children, it will really blow your mind sometime.

He's not saying that at all, I mean if you think about it, with programs that help the poor and those less fortunate, everyone survives, where as, if we lived in an unorganized society, those who could not do what they needed to do to survive would die.

Thank you, thats the point I'm trying to make here. Thanks to the wonders of modern medicine in technology people that would die in a unorganized society survive, which really goes against the whole idea of evolution that the "strong" survive. Thats why I say evolution as we know it has stopped in the human race.

even though i suggested maybe we stopped evolving physically, even that is untrue, the average height of man has been increasing drastically since atleast the late 1800s
That can be attributed to advances/changes in our diet and medicine. People also live longer now because of it, but that means nothing in terms of evolution.

[dtl42]

no, no, that's backwards. With survival of the fittest, the one's fittest to survive live on. Like let's say the fastest tigers survive and the slow one's die. The fast one's are able to live long lives and pass on their 'fast' genes. The slow ones die off early and will not be able to pass on their traits. This in turn will cause the species to evolve. It's like the things with the birds on the Galapagos island.
thats physical evolution, but we are very much capable of philosphical evolution at this point and that is what has begun to happen, "survival of the fittest" is cannot be accurate for the future if we wish to progress as humanity

[mikeman5]

thats physical evolution, but we are very much capable of philosphical evolution at this point and that is what has begun to happen, "survival of the fittest" is cannot be accurate for the future if we wish to progress as humanity
Yeah I think that out "physical" evolution has been greatly slowed, but we are definitely evolving "intelligence-wise" because of technology, we are geting smarter, and smarter, but that does not necessarily mean that the not so smart people will be "naturally selected" out.

[CoUgArLAX18]

I think were evolving both mentally and physically. With new technology coming every year these days, It's clear that were getting smarter. I'm also pretty sure that were bigger than we use to be and were faster too. Sure theres alot more obese people due to all the fast food consumption and bad diet habits but our I'm willing to be the fittest from out time could own the fittest from before.

[jedimasterPIMP]

maybe physically we have stopped evolving but now we are evolving in our philosophy and our thinking process, just like you said, we show compassion, which is a trait that those cavemen didnt have, we are also evolving everything around us, with new technologies growing and expanding and changing, that is a form of evolution
Most cavemen as you knew them were Neanderthals, a completely different race of human that is now extinct....

I mean I can see some light in what your saying with the whole mental evolution, but at the same point, we are just learning from our past mistakes. Its a lot like trial and error. If things work well, we keep doin them. So really that can just be attributed to humans ability to learn.

[mikeman5]

Most cavemen as you knew them were Neanderthals, a completely different race of human that is now extinct....

I mean I can see some light in what your saying with the whole mental evolution, but at the same point, we are just learning from our past mistakes. Its a lot like trial and error. If things work well, we keep doin them. So really that can just be attributed to humans ability to learn.
Yeah and I think you were talking about physical evolution in your first post, right?

[jedimasterPIMP]

Yeah I am, but I mean it can also be applied to all kinds of evolution as well just because the principles of evolution hold true for all types of evolution.

[mikeman5]

Nope, we havent. Wonder why people from this generation was bigger than the last, and they were bigger than the generation before them?

Adaption never stops.
True, but I'm pretty sure we can only grow so much because if I'm correct people who are abnormally tall (I'm talkin like 8 foot) are really slow and uncoordinated and usually die early because it takes too long for their brain to send signals to the parts of their bodies (and maybe blood circulation IDK)

[LaxDman62]

we may still physically ivolve but very slowly. Generations are having different traits. The kids that are younger than me are getting shorter and shorter.

The evolution with social classes is very possible. Some guy wrote a science fiction book about how America in the future would have fat type creatures living on top of the ground(rich,smart), and the others will live underground. Then the ones living underground would go and grab people from the top and eat them. Its hard to explain, but our teacher told us about it in social studies.

[jedimasterPIMP]

Nope, we havent. Wonder why people from this generation was bigger than the last, and they were bigger than the generation before them?

Adaption never stops.
Once again, diet and medicine man. Think of all the different types of nutrients you got at a young age compared to your grandparents or 100 years ago.

And yes your right, adaptation does never stop because of random genetic mutation will produce people better suited for their environment. But it is almost canceled out because people who are not as well suited still survive in today's civilized world.

[Lax r us]

True, but I'm pretty sure we can only grow so much because if I'm correct people who are abnormally tall (I'm talkin like 8 foot) are really slow and uncoordinated and usually die early because it takes too long for their brain to send signals to the parts of their bodies (and maybe blood circulation IDK)

Your correct about the tall people dieing early because of heart problems and oother condishions that come from being that huge. But I do think we are still growing mentally, because isn't it a fact or something that every generation is smarter than the one before it?

[mikeman5]

Your correct about the tall people dieing early because of heart problems and oother condishions that come from being that huge. But I do think we are still growing mentally, because isn't it a fact or something that every generation is smarter than the one before it?
Yep deffinitely because of new technology and discoveries, we are alwasy getiing smarter.

[jedimasterPIMP]

Your correct about the tall people dieing early because of heart problems and oother condishions that come from being that huge. But I do think we are still growing mentally, because isn't it a fact or something that every generation is smarter than the one before it?
Yeah each generation is getting smarter because of research being done on the stages in live where learning is very important (mainly childhood). But think about it, we have learned already stuff that our grandparents didn't learn until college, not necessarily because we are smarter, but because it is forced on us and we have to learn it at a younger age which in effect can make you smarter.

But on a whole traits like intelligence are not passed down through the normal hereditary process. A kid may be more likely to be intelligent because he has two smart parents, but nothing is guaranteed because the expression of some genes depend on the environment. So quite frankly I'm not too sure why we are talking about intelligence.

[Lax r us]

Yeah each generation is getting smarter because of research being done on the stages in live where learning is very important (mainly childhood). But think about it, we have learned already stuff that our grandparents didn't learn until college, not necessarily because we are smarter, but because it is forced on us and we have to learn it at a younger age which in effect can make you smarter.

But on a whole traits like intelligence are not passed down through the normal hereditary process. A kid may be more likely to be intelligent because he has two smart parents, but nothing is guaranteed because the expression of some genes depend on the environment. So quite frankly I'm not too sure why we are talking about intelligence.

However, you have to be smarter to create better and new technology, because no one teaches you how to make something new or whatever.

[jedimasterPIMP]

However, you have to be smarter to create better and new technology, because no one teaches you how to make something new or whatever.
Yeah you are right, but that all comes from learning and understanding and building upon prior knowledge.

[SilverZeppelin]

hvae you read war of the worlds? the aliens were so technologiaclly advanced, that they evolves so that their bodies were no more than walking brains

[libertyvillelax]

I think well eventually just evolve into a blob and will have machines do everything for us, then global warming will fry the earth, everyone will die, earth will cool off, and then everything willl start over again. (6)

[cali feeder]

I haven't read any of the previous posts besides the thread originators, but here's what I have to say.

If you compare the average height of the human being 100 years ago (an EXTREMELY small time frame on the scale of all life), you will see that they were MUCH shorter than the average human now. Does this mean that smaller people have ceased to exist? No. But, there has been a gradual change among the majority of the human species, since there are fewer people the size of a human from 1910, which says that the human species IS still evolving. I believe that this is some form of adaptation, and natural selection.

Height is just one example. On a mental level, humans now compared to 8,000 years ago have MUCH more self control, and are far more aware of their surroundings, and possible consequences of certain actions. Humans are also far more compassionate for those who are less physically, mentally, and economically talented than themselves. But, I do not believe that is because of evolution, or even adaptation; it is merely because the mindset of the individual has changed over the years to put more value on the human individual. But, is that evolution? IMO, a change in thinking is not an evolution OR adaptation.

Back on the subject of compassion for other humans. If those who were not able to perform physical and mental tasks needed to independently survive on Earth, were say, killed at birth, human kind would still be on the same evolutionary path as before, still evolving, still going through the process of natural selection. But more individuals would be "naturally selected", because so many more humans are able to survive and thrive, and therefore the gene pool would gradually expand, until those who were not capable of performing normal physical and mental tasks would die off, leading back to a smaller gene pool of those "who made it out on top of the hill". Then, they would reproduce, making the gene pool bigger...you see where I'm going.

So essentially, my theory is that human kind is evolving in one big circle. Which means that humans are still evolving. The physical traits that vary from generation to generation are only part of the whole scheme, and will not affect that "big circle". Only some unforseen outside force (such as nuclear war, a meteor hit, etc...) could interrupt this "big evolutionary circle" and create a new one, starting only with the species that adapted to their new environment.

Whew.

EDIT: Now that I read that, it may not make sense to some people. It's a weird theory, but I like to think outside the box.

[SilverZeppelin]

I think well eventually just evolve into a blob and will have machines do everything for us, then global warming will fry the earth, everyone will die, earth will cool off, and then everything willl start over again. (6)
thats war of the worlds in a nutshell lol

[jedimasterPIMP]

I haven't read any of the previous posts besides the thread originators, but here's what I have to say.

If you compare the average height of the human being 100 years ago (an EXTREMELY small time frame on the scale of all life), you will see that they were MUCH shorter than the average human now. Does this mean that smaller people have ceased to exist? No. But, there has been a gradual change among the majority of the human species, since there are fewer people the size of a human from 1910, which says that the human species IS still evolving. I believe that this is some form of adaptation, and natural selection.

Height is just one example. On a mental level, humans now compared to 8,000 years ago have MUCH more self control, and are far more aware of their surroundings, and possible consequences of certain actions. Humans are also far more compassionate for those who are less physically, mentally, and economically talented than themselves. But, I do not believe that is because of evolution, or even adaptation; it is merely because the mindset of the individual has changed over the years to put more value on the human individual. But, is that evolution? IMO, a change in thinking is not an evolution OR adaptation.
Ok...
1. Yes 100 years is an extremely small amount of time. So small in fact that it is very doubtful the the effects of evolution would be seen so drastically today. Think about it, there is no actual advantage of being tall (unless you play basketball). We don't have to reach up into the trees and look for food anymore, so being tall does not carry with it many advantages besides the satisfaction of looking down on other people. So to say that evolution is responsible for the change in height from 100 years ago doesn't make that much sense.

Seriously, the reason for the height change is because of diet and medicine. I can't remember the year, but a 17 year old boy was found living on the streets since he was a child. He was under nourished and was extremely small and light for his age. However, once hospitalized and put on a regular diet full of nutrients, both his weight and height shot up to close to normal levels for his age. If that doesn't show that diet and medicine are responsible for the height change, I don't know what else does.

2.I'm not saying that humans never have evolved, because way before civilized society we definitely did. 8,000 years ago humans were very instinctive, acting more on their emotions than their thoughts and logic. Through those 8000 years humans have evolved. The point I'm trying to make is that recently, maybe since the dawn of modern society and technology, that evolution has come to a seemingly stand still because one of the key ingredients, natural selection, is not able to work.

[libertyvillelax]

Cali Feeder is right about the height thing. I am 15 right now and about 6'4. Yes I am taller than most, but not by a ton. Back in the 1800's/early 1900's I would have been considered a freak.

[cali feeder]

Ok...
1. Yes 100 years is an extremely small amount of time. So small in fact that it is very doubtful the the effects of evolution would be seen so drastically today. Think about it, there is no actual advantage of being tall (unless you play basketball). We don't have to reach up into the trees and look for food anymore, so being tall does not carry with it many advantages besides the satisfaction of looking down on other people. So to say that evolution is responsible for the change in height from 100 years ago doesn't make that much sense.

Seriously, the reason for the height change is because of diet and medicine. I can't remember the year, but a 17 year old boy was found living on the streets since he was a child. He was under nourished and was extremely small and light for his age. However, once hospitalized and put on a regular diet full of nutrients, both his weight and height shot up to close to normal levels for his age. If that doesn't show that diet and medicine are responsible for the height change, I don't know what else does.

2.I'm not saying that humans never have evolved, because way before civilized society we definitely did. 8,000 years ago humans were very instinctive, acting more on their emotions than their thoughts and logic. Through those 8000 years humans have evolved. The point I'm trying to make is that recently, maybe since the dawn of modern society and technology, that evolution has come to a seemingly stand still because one of the key ingredients, natural selection, is not able to work.

Hmm. I see your point, which is definetly a good one. I think it just depends on which way you look at it.

[goalie33fan]

We will never stop evolving. Soon there will no longer be anymore blond hair, or pinky toe nails.

[raykessler]

However, the 'weak' are still less likely to reproduce. Those with defects may find it harder to find someone to mate with since people find them scary/weird/unattractive. Yes they survive, but they have to produce offspring.

i disagree completly, sure people with very obvious physical or mental defects those very overt 'weak' people are less likely to reproduce, but what about people with much less obvious 'weaknesses.' Type I (child) diabetes used to be EXTREMLY rare, now you see it all the time, you know why? It's because with the advances in monitering and insuline shots children who are born or who develop diabetes are able to live almost if not completly full lives. Last time i checked i don't really care if a girl has diabetes. It's the same with people who are genetically disposed to certain types of cancers, in a more primative society they might not live long enough to reproduce, but with developments in chemo and other treatments, they can live long enough to pass that down.

I am in no way saying it's a bad thing, but yes i think to a certain extent we have stopped evolving. Evolution arises in response to an external challenge that we face and must overcome. With a large number of the world's population living in relative comfort and with modern healthcare there's nothing left for us to adapt to. For now.

[marflax33]

I apparently have no sternum tip, while everyone else i know does... So i guess?

[libertyvillelax]

I apparently have no sternum tip, while everyone else i know does... So i guess?
That is a mutation. Mutations can lead to evolution. If having no sternum tip greatly beniifited you, then many many generations later it is possible that no one would have a sternum tip.

[marflax33]

That is a mutation.

Oh thanks, I'm just going to go kill myself now.

[manup5183]

i think we may be done with nervous system and brain and organ ect evolutuion. but i think our phisical apereance may change later in life

[Mavido]

No.



Human are not evolving.


Because of our advances in the medical feild and the fact that we allow the weak and diseased to have offspring, we will not evolve. Because the good genes are mixing with the crappy ones.

I know alot of people who should not have had children, and they did.. and their children as just as bad.

[cali feeder]

Okay you guys have convinced me, mainly these two points:

i think we may be done with nervous system and brain and organ ect evolutuion. but i think our phisical apereance may change later in life

I agree with that.

No.



Human are not evolving.


Because of our advances in the medical feild and the fact that we allow the weak and diseased to have offspring, we will not evolve. Because the good genes are mixing with the crappy ones.

I know alot of people who should not have had children, and they did.. and their children as just as bad.

We need to stop letting morons have kids. Because generally, morons produce moron kids who are messed up because their family life is messed up, and the gene pool gets worse and worse. Maybe making birth control over-the-counter and more available would be a solution. Anyways, we need to stop letting idiots have kids.

[marflax33]

Because the good genes are mixing with the crappy ones.

Aryan and Vegan... Interesting combination.

[Mavido]

Aryan and Vegan... Interesting combination.
Yeah, aryan, sure.


So the people who have genetic dispositions toward certain diseases, while other people manage to be 6'1, in great shape and are never sick. One of those would not survive if nature were allowed to take its course.


You dont see wolves with parkinsons and things of that nature.


Now im not saying that the way we live life, and that we should kill these people or not let them reproduce.

What im saying is, that is the reason why humans have stopped evolving, because, natural selection has been stopped.

[marflax33]

I really have to disagree with you on this Mavido... Yes, i am not saying we don't have people that should not even consider having children, But you don't see many odd matches. Think about it, If you happen to be one of the stronger ones, say a strong, bigger, healthy guy... You would obviously be drawn to a better looking, more sexually attractive/sexually able woman. They attract eachother... The same goes for people of today who do not abide by Darwin's Law. They are attracted to lesser males of their same stature in life. So quite a few would probably continue to evolve, The others will just well... Not sure what.

[Mavido]

Sexual attractiveness, has absolutly nothing to do with physical or genetic strengh.


If a chick who is attractive as can be, yet dumb as a goat, has kids with a good looking guy who is a genius, that doesnt work. Yet it happens all the time *different variations of that*


Or say a guy with metal disabilities who has children with a woman who is basicly perfect... that wouldnt happen naturaly.

Purebreed dogs dont go and have pups with retarded mutts.

It doesnt work that way. Because animals dont have medications masking their disabilities, which still come though in their offspring.

[cali feeder]

Sexual attractiveness, has absolutly nothing to do with physical or genetic strengh.


If a chick who is attractive as can be, yet dumb as a goat, has kids with a good looking guy who is a genius, that doesnt work. Yet it happens all the time *different variations of that*


Or say a guy with metal disabilities who has children with a woman who is basicly perfect... that wouldnt happen naturaly.

Purebreed dogs dont go and have pups with retarded mutts.

It doesnt work that way. Because animals dont have medications masking their disabilities, which still come though in their offspring.

Bingo. Thats it right there.

[laxiceman]

There is a very simple solution to this: We neuter all males deemed unworthy to breed, including all males that are: weak, small, disfigured, retarded in any way, 'stupid', overwieght etc. And spay females with said disibilities. No more undesired mating occurs.

Well, no, that wouldn't work, and it would suck for all the people denied breeding rights. Then there would be the whole, who decides if they are worthy or not thing. Oh well, we're screwed.

I just had a mental image of a society where people would randomly get stopped by cops and have to show their 'Right to breed papers".

[gigo567]

I just had a mental image of a society where people would randomly get stopped by cops and have to show their 'Right to breed papers".
Kind of like the Nazi's with the Jews...

[Mavido]

There is a very simple solution to this: We neuter all males deemed unworthy to breed, including all males that are: weak, small, disfigured, retarded in any way, 'stupid', overwieght etc. And spay females with said disibilities. No more undesired mating occurs.

Well, no, that wouldn't work, and it would suck for all the people denied breeding rights. Then there would be the whole, who decides if they are worthy or not thing. Oh well, we're screwed.

I just had a mental image of a society where people would randomly get stopped by cops and have to show their 'Right to breed papers".
Now that is an aryan thought.


The way which humianity is going right now is great. We dont need to evolve further, medical advances will allow us to actually correct such genetic problems in the not to distant future any way.

[laxiceman]

Kind if like the Nazi's with the Jews...

Serious? I never knew that.

[Mavido]

Serious? I never knew that.
Yeah, go take like 6th grade history... and pay attention this time.

[laxiceman]

Yeah, go take like 6th grade history... and pay attention this time.

That was a long time ago.

I know the basics of the holocaust, but It's not a topic that really interests me to the point where I want to learn all I can about it.

I never heard anything about Jews and breeding papers.

[gigo567]

That was a long time ago.

I know the basics of the holocaust, but It's not a topic that really interests me to the point where I want to learn all I can about it.

I never heard anything about Jews and breeding papers.
Thats not what I meant.

Its like the Nazi's checking the papers that the Jews had. Basically if they weren't the right papers or something they were killed.

[laxiceman]

Thats not what I meant.

Its like the Nazi's checking the papers that the Jews had. Basically if they weren't the right papers or something they were killed.

Oh, well I actually did know that.

The breeding papers thing is where I got thrown off. I wouldn't have been surprised though, after all the unthinkable things the nazis did.

[Mavido]

Oh, well I actually did know that.

The breeding papers thing is where I got thrown off. I wouldn't have been surprised though, after all the unthinkable things the nazis did.
Thats actually alot like the apartheid aswell. So your idea not only related to the nazi ideals of the "one superior race" but also to the greatest show of racism and segregation ever.

Congradulations. I feel as if you diserve a darwin award. Or to have your breeding rights revoked.


----------------------------------------------------


Kay, back on topic eh?


So heres the deal, unless someone can offer some evidence that a species can evolve with out natural selection. Im conviced *and i believe several other people are aswell* that Humans have stopped evolving at this perticular point in time.



Also, I would love to be an X-man.... They're ballin.



And i dont see how a species, like humans would evolve with out a need, we have managed to survive in areas that would normaly be unsurvivable. We have managed to defeate nature. So we have no reason to evolve.

[cali feeder]

....And i dont see how a species, like humans would evolve with out a need, we have managed to survive in areas that would normaly be unsurvivable. We have managed to defeate nature. So we have no reason to evolve.

Exactly. Natural selection no longer "selects". Humans have overcome natural selection, so evolution is now based on humans.

[Mavido]

Exactly. Natural selection no longer "selects". Humans have overcome natural selection, so evolution is now based on humans.
Lets spend some time bathing in nuclear waste.... its pretty awesome from what i hear.


Oh and i want to be bitten by some spiders...


I CONTROL MY DESTINY!

[CSlax06]

Lets spend some time bathing in nuclear waste.... its pretty awesome from what i hear.


Oh and i want to be bitten by some spiders...


I CONTROL MY DESTINY!

Your destiny along with your exceeding ugly mutations. Good luck, hope you turn out like spider-man :)

Uh-hem...But anywho, I think were still evolving. The second we stop evolving is when the world ends and another form of life inhabits the earth.

[BuckWyld]

Of course humans are still evolving, and so does survival of the fit. The only thing that has changed is the environment which we live there for the criteria of fit has changed. The only thing that determines if an animal is fit to survive is living long enough to have offspring.

[homeskillet313]

i think that what we need to do to allow us to leave on hydrogen/nitrogen filled planets with minimal oxygen is secretly take hundreds of people a year over the next couple hundred years and gradually immerge them into an environment where theres enough oxygen to breath, and almost too much nitrogen to breath, and force them to live until they start evolving. then take the F2 set of offspring who should be slightly more adapted and let them breed, and so on until we have offspring who are evolved enough to live on another planet. and we teach them all about survival of the fittest and let them start their own civilization. thats just a condensed version, but essentially with enough time it should work :)

[faceofflax15]

And i dont see how a species, like humans would evolve with out a need, we have managed to survive in areas that would normaly be unsurvivable. We have managed to defeate nature. So we have no reason to evolve.

Whos to say we don't have a need.

Global warming, if thats true is a need, we will need to evolve to be able to stand warmer temperatures.

[raykessler]

There is a very simple solution to this: We neuter all males deemed unworthy to breed, including all males that are: weak, small, disfigured, retarded in any way, 'stupid', overwieght etc. And spay females with said disibilities. No more undesired mating occurs.

Well, no, that wouldn't work, and it would suck for all the people denied breeding rights. Then there would be the whole, who decides if they are worthy or not thing. Oh well, we're screwed.

I just had a mental image of a society where people would randomly get stopped by cops and have to show their 'Right to breed papers".

that's what nazi's tried to do to people with physical/mental disabilities. IT was called action T4 and essentiall, they would kill or steralize anyone that was handicapped. The German people (the same germans who stood idely by while the Holocaust occured) were so outraged by the program that the NAZI's were forced to stop because a lack of popular support.

[Gannonthecannon]

....my coach often yells that we are the reason they should bring back natural selection....

[Stringer4Lax]

A family at my school has started to evolve that everyone in their blood line has 6 fingers on both hands. all the way back to her great-great-grandparents. And she heals faster than everyone else. Weird huh

[the wister]

People will never stop evolving. As long as we're reproducing, we will be evolving.

I'm sure people a couple hundred years ago felt pretty content with themselves, up until the point when bubonic plague wiped half of them out. These days we are better able to slow something like that from happening, but medicine cannot fix everything. They still have yet to produce a fully automated artificial heart.

It's really all about perspective. Perspective and intelligence, or ignorance, however you want to look at it. Before any sort of healthcare, people would die of infected cuts and think it was a pretty normal thing, because they didn't know that those sort of things could be prevented. They were ignorant. Then we got a little smarter and people would live past scrapes and cuts, but they'd die from small pox, chicken pox, rabies, etc, all very preventable illnesses, but at the time it seemed like a natural way to go. Now we have vaccines, innoculations and boosters, and we think we're pretty damn smart cause they only things that kill us now are cancer and heart attacks, strokes and HIV. They are currently studying HIV resistant individuals who are just further proof that humans as a species are still evolving. It's true that healthcare is slowing genetic evolution, but it's not stopping it. Some scientists even argue that healthcare is a form of evolution, although I highly disagree with them.

Wolves may not have Parkinson's Disease, but monkeys have their own variety of HIV. Dogs get asthma, cataracts, heart murmurs. Rodents poke their own brains out if they don't whittle their teeth down ffrom time to time.

And Purebreed dogs don't breed with retarded mutts because they are purebreed and their reproduction is obviously controlled by humans. If they were free to they would breed with mutts, just like they try to hump anything they can lean on. Just like horses will mate with giant wooden models if they are horny enough (Jackass 2 anyone?). My point is that animals (or any living organism) do not evolve because they are sexually selective, they evolve because they have a survival advantage.

A species is defined as related organisms that freely interbreed with each other when not prevented. So whoever it was that said it can squash dreams of 'new species of humans.'

And lastly, to clear up all the inane 'Lets keep retards from having kids' comments, here is a brief lesson in genetics. Retardation, Kleinfelter's Syndrome, Down Syndrome, Turner's Syndrome, etc, are not caused by bad genes. Certain diseases are, sure, but half of the ones I listed are results of bad chromosome pairing, not bad genetics. In other words, you could have perfect genes and have kids with someone who has perfect genes, but if there is a mismatch in gene pairing during reproduction (a naturally occurring event that can happen to anyone), you will have mutations that can result in mental handicap. It's not something that can be bred against, it's just nature and probability.

[jedimasterPIMP]

People will never stop evolving. As long as we're reproducing, we will be evolving.
NO! Not at all man. Evolution is a much more complex process then simple reproduction. It takes a combination of genetic mutations and natural selection to evolve and like Mavido and I have been saying, naturual has basically stopped in todays world.

[homeskillet313]

Wolves may not have Parkinson's Disease, but monkeys have their own variety of HIV. Dogs get asthma, cataracts, heart murmurs. Rodents poke their own brains out if they don't whittle their teeth down ffrom time to time.



this is about the only analogy that you tried to provide relevance that i disagree with its relevancy. long long ago, deep in the jungles of whereever the original SIV monkeys lived, (Simian Immunodifiency virus, the monkey form of HIV), some weirdo hunting monkeys for food cut open an infected monkey, (monkeys aren't affected by the virus as we are, to an extent.) and rubbed the skin on a cut or some other such non-important method of transporting, and the disease was mutated into the human form of the virus that now kills millions and millions of humans each year. it's almost relatable to the bird flu, except 10 years in the future when the right combination of events occurs and the bird flu turns into a highly contagious airborne pathogen. so you see, i dont really see the relevance of how wolves without parkinsons or monkeys with SIV, or birds with the bird flu carry any relevance with the topic on hand. although i do agree that our evolving minds and the fact that our brains are starting to think outside the box more as a society as compared to thousands of years ago where only a lucky few had that ability and they were called philiosophs. the outcast way of thinking way back when that led to hundreds of underground discoveries that could've changed the face of the world as we knew it if only the world had accepted them and their ideas. galileo anyone? i think the point of all this rambling is to show that while our immune systems adapt more slowly to viruses and bacteria and still dont completely cure ourselves of very many of them, such as chicken pox, our brains either have been evolving to meet the tip of the bell curve to keep modern society alive, or there really was a martian landing and roswell and we stole all their technology....the world may never know..

[HdGLaxWarrior]

i think we still have a way to go, look at all those morons in the middle east killing their neighbours with an ak-47. because that's really intelligent.

[the wister]

NO! Not at all man. Evolution is a much more complex process then simple reproduction. It takes a combination of genetic mutations and natural selection to evolve and like Mavido and I have been saying, naturual has basically stopped in todays world.
My point was not that reproduction is the source of evolution, just that, as long as we are reproducing, we are also evolving. Which is my way of saying, as long as human beings exist, they will be evolving
. . .so you see, i dont really see the relevance of how wolves without parkinsons or monkeys with SIV, or birds with the bird flu carry any relevance with the topic on hand. . .
The parkinson's disease reference was in response to someone saying how wolves are still evolving because they don't have diseases, but humans are not because we combat our diseases with healthcare instead of letting it kill those who are not immune to it. My point was that animals still get viruses and still suffer from chronic diseases, they are just different from the ones that we have.

[Mavido]

The parkinson's disease reference was in response to someone saying how wolves are still evolving because they don't have diseases, but humans are not because we combat our diseases with healthcare instead of letting it kill those who are not immune to it. My point was that animals still get viruses and still suffer from chronic diseases, they are just different from the ones that we have.
I was not saying that Wolves are still evolving because they dont have diseases, i was saying that though natural selection a process which does not affect humans any more, wolves (along with most species) have elimiated such diseases.

[Mavido]

People will never stop evolving. As long as we're reproducing, we will be evolving.

I'm sure people a couple hundred years ago felt pretty content with themselves, up until the point when bubonic plague wiped half of them out. These days we are better able to slow something like that from happening, but medicine cannot fix everything. They still have yet to produce a fully automated artificial heart.

It's really all about perspective. Perspective and intelligence, or ignorance, however you want to look at it. Before any sort of healthcare, people would die of infected cuts and think it was a pretty normal thing, because they didn't know that those sort of things could be prevented. They were ignorant. Then we got a little smarter and people would live past scrapes and cuts, but they'd die from small pox, chicken pox, rabies, etc, all very preventable illnesses, but at the time it seemed like a natural way to go. Now we have vaccines, innoculations and boosters, and we think we're pretty damn smart cause they only things that kill us now are cancer and heart attacks, strokes and HIV. They are currently studying HIV resistant individuals who are just further proof that humans as a species are still evolving. It's true that healthcare is slowing genetic evolution, but it's not stopping it. Some scientists even argue that healthcare is a form of evolution, although I highly disagree with them.

Wolves may not have Parkinson's Disease, but monkeys have their own variety of HIV. Dogs get asthma, cataracts, heart murmurs. Rodents poke their own brains out if they don't whittle their teeth down ffrom time to time.

And Purebreed dogs don't breed with retarded mutts because they are purebreed and their reproduction is obviously controlled by humans. If they were free to they would breed with mutts, just like they try to hump anything they can lean on. Just like horses will mate with giant wooden models if they are horny enough (Jackass 2 anyone?). My point is that animals (or any living organism) do not evolve because they are sexually selective, they evolve because they have a survival advantage.

A species is defined as related organisms that freely interbreed with each other when not prevented. So whoever it was that said it can squash dreams of 'new species of humans.'

And lastly, to clear up all the inane 'Lets keep retards from having kids' comments, here is a brief lesson in genetics. Retardation, Kleinfelter's Syndrome, Down Syndrome, Turner's Syndrome, etc, are not caused by bad genes. Certain diseases are, sure, but half of the ones I listed are results of bad chromosome pairing, not bad genetics. In other words, you could have perfect genes and have kids with someone who has perfect genes, but if there is a mismatch in gene pairing during reproduction (a naturally occurring event that can happen to anyone), you will have mutations that can result in mental handicap. It's not something that can be bred against, it's just nature and probability.


Know it all....



*with a swift kick to the shins and a nananananannananana Mavido runs for cover*

[the wister]

Well, I'd retort, but I'm still reeling with pain and did not see where you went.

[Mavido]

Well, I'd retort, but I'm still reeling with pain and did not see where you went.
See ladies and gentlemen, this is how we used to handle arguments on TLF, back in the preIL days.


Still works like a charm.

[livin4lax09]

i think if we were evolving you wouldn't see it anyways because it takes hundreds of years to make any real progress in evolution.

[jedimasterPIMP]

My point was not that reproduction is the source of evolution, just that, as long as we are reproducing, we are also evolving. Which is my way of saying, as long as human beings exist, they will be evolving
Not technically. Like I said before there are many different mechanisms besides just existing to evolution. Simply being there doesn't mean anything. Natural selection is basically the motor for evolution while genetic mutation is all the parts and pieces of the machine. What happens is civilized society is that natural selection is basically wiped out. People with less desirable genes that give them no advantage, if not a disadvantage in life are allowed to live thanks to modern medicine. Because the weak and strong survive, the genetic pool is just a huge mumbo jumbo of all kinds of genes, not necessarily the ones that give people advantages in life.

I will agree that people in more brutal environments or in a less civilized society are in fact evolving. For example, take the Inuits or Sherpas. Both civilizations live in a brutal environment that is very secluded from the modern world. Because of this, they are not able to save all the weaker people in their civilization. If you can't take the cold and altitude from birth, you die. That is natural selection. The strong survive and the weak don't. In fact, because these two people are so secluded and their genetic pool is relatively small, it could lead to speciation, which means a new species of human.

However, the point I'm trying to make is that in the modern world, the world that you and I live in, natural selection is not allowed to work which means that evolution has stopped in the civilized, modern world.

See ladies and gentlemen, this is how we used to handle arguments on TLF, back in the preIL days
Oh the good ol days back when men could settle things like men none of this sissy stuff

[the wister]

I'm in no contest with your argument that natural selection has been greatly hampered, but that does not stop evolution. Evolution is ONLY brought about by genetic mutation. With genetic mutation, people would not have different characteristics. Selection simply hinders reproduction for individuals with less advantageous traits, it does not promote 'good' genes and it does not induce evolution, it merely selects against certain genes.

Without selection, the gene population is extremely diverse. With selection, it is narrowed. This is not evolution, this is just genetic drift. Selection promotes evolution, but it does not cause it, or stop it for that matter.

For example brown eyes are dominant. If, eventually everyone in the world had brown eyes, that would be evolution. It would not require selection. I think the problem everyone is having is with the definition of evolution, so let me clear it up: Evolution is change, it is not improvement. The change is usually improvement, but regardless, evolution is only defined as change.

[jedimasterPIMP]

I'm in no contest with your argument that natural selection has been greatly hampered, but that does not stop evolution. Evolution is ONLY brought about by genetic mutation. With genetic mutation, people would not have different characteristics. Selection simply hinders reproduction for individuals with less advantageous traits, it does not promote 'good' genes and it does not induce evolution, it merely selects against certain genes.

Without selection, the gene population is extremely diverse. With selection, it is narrowed. This is not evolution, this is just genetic drift. Selection promotes evolution, but it does not cause it, or stop it for that matter.

For example brown eyes are dominant. If, eventually everyone in the world had brown eyes, that would be evolution. It would not require selection. I think the problem everyone is having is with the definition of evolution, so let me clear it up: Evolution is change, it is not improvement. The change is usually improvement, but regardless, evolution is only defined as change.

What your describing is genetic drift, not evolution, evolution cannot happen without natural selection. Genetic drift is just the natural movement of genetic characteristics based on the principle of genetics like dominance and all that. Since the allele for brown eyes is dominant over the other alleles, brown eyes will be more common, but, not because of evolution.

[TeXaSLaX14]

Physically we are still evolving people are beginning to be born without things un necessary to the body(wisdom teeth, epindix, tounsals, ect.) we learned it in science today.

[the wister]

How about a popular example, I'm sure you've seen the kiwi video floating around recently. Why would birds evolve to a form without wings? All the ones that could fly were eaten? Obviously this isn't true, they don't fly because, basically, they didn't need to. As a result, they EVOLVED into flightless birds. This was achieved without natural selection, proving gene fitness can result it evolution when selection is absent.

Another example would be homo sapiens. History shows that people today are, in general, taller than people 100, 200, 300 years ago. While in pre AD times, being taller would offer an advantage to run from prey, we have since become the dominant species on the planet and, really, wouldn't need to keep growing, but we still are. It's been over thousands of years since we have been 'naturally selected' against for our height, so the fact that we continue to show an increase in average height proves that, again, selection is unecessary for evolution.

The reason for this can be explained through fitness. Taller individuals are more appealing to members of the opposite sex, so they are more likely to reproduce. On the other hand, this does not imply selection against shorter people, being shorter does not handicap them in anyway. Selection is when a gene provides the organism with a lesser chance of survival; fitness is when a gene has a greater chance of being passed on. Taller people have more fit genes than shorter people, but shorter people are NOT being selected against. ALL genes have a certain level of fitness, NOT all genes have a certain level of selection.

Evolution can occur in one of three ways:
Selection against one gene
Greater relative fitness of one gene
Genetic drift (very rare, requires mutation)

Evolution occurs as a result of all three, but in theory, only one needs to occur.

[brikk9]

On this topic, anyone think that using so many resources to help 'mentally impaired' people out is slightly wrong? For one thing, sometimes they get more resources than normal children. I only have a problem with this since I don't care for the fact that my kids one day could get less educational aid, then a kid who has down syndrome, etc. What do those people give back to the world. Nothing. The consume resources, and don't return any. In all honestly, the resources, and most of the money should go to capabled children that have a real chance of growing up to being something important and will end up contributing to society,.

I know it is horrible to say, but really, life is supposed to be survival of the fittest, not "fittest help out the unfit" although that is how our society has evolved. I don't know, we shouldn't just abandon those people, but there shouldn't be so many resources set aside for them. I don't know, its not a fun topic, and I bet I'll be flamed for what I said, but oh well, the situation sucks, and those are my views.
Dang fool, karma, your kids are gonna have down syndrome, and when that happens are you gonna complain about the special attention... doubt it