Proper Count on Restart

[pboyd]

NFHS Scenario: Player A1 in the offensive end enters the goal area ending the 10-sec count. A1 then loses the ball and his team regains possession of the loose ball (no goal or intervening possession) in the defensive end - which count starts when Team A regains possession?

[3rdPersonPlural]

You mean that the ball rolled all the way back over the midfield line without either team gaining possession?

A new 20 is called for.

[laxfan25]

It would be a new 10 count, since the other team had no possession in between. If the ball left the box in the offensive half, we would all agree it's a new 10 - just expand that space to include the whole field outside of the attack box. They seemed to be in agreement with this at the NFHS Rules Interpretation session today.

[3rdPersonPlural]

Thanks, 25. As I recall we had squabbled like siblings last season over how to interpret that scenario.

How about this scenario. David Beckham is on defense. A1 drops the ball, and Beckham boots the ball over the midfield line and the ball has rolled almost to the opposite restraining line before an A defender scoops the ball under pressure and dumps it to his goalie.

You're saying that A has 10 seconds to get it back into their offensive box?

This rule will encourage uncontrolled (ergo no possession) swatting and kicking clears in an effort to force a long speedy trek (at the risk of a clean turnover) back into the box should the attacking team re-secure the loose ball.

Did anyone argue this in the meeting, or are good kickers going to become as valued on defense as good players?

[laxfan25]

How about this scenario. David Beckham is on defense. A1 drops the ball, and Beckham boots the ball over the midfield line and the ball has rolled almost to the opposite restraining line before an A defender scoops the ball under pressure and dumps it to his goalie.

You're saying that A has 10 seconds to get it back into their offensive box?
Yes, exactly right.

This rule will encourage uncontrolled (ergo no possession) swatting and kicking clears in an effort to force a long speedy trek (at the risk of a clean turnover) back into the box should the attacking team re-secure the loose ball.

Did anyone argue this in the meeting, or are good kickers going to become as valued on defense as good players?
I think you're very wrong there. Players will still try to pick up loose balls with their sticks, since that way they have controlled possession. Kicking the ball away only gives them a 50-50 chance. No coach will be advocating this. Here are a few Becks-less scenarios that are much more likely:
A) Team A brings the ball over midfield, and the ball becomes loose before they get it into the box. If Team A kicks it back to the defensive end, should they get a new 20 count if they gain possession with no intervening possession by B?? I think we all would agree on NO.
B) Team A brings it over and gets it in the box to kill the 10 count. They pass it to a middie outside the box who drops the ball and struggles to pick it up as the count nears 10. He thinks "Aha! I'll kick it to my D-man over the line, so that when he picks it up we'll get a whole new 20 count, plus the 10 when we bring it back over!" Is he thinking wisely??
C) Team A has the ball in their attack box. They drop it, and someone kicks it into the defensive half. D-man A picks it up with no intervening Team B possession. Give him a 20 count and a new 10 when they bring it back over??

There should be one consistent call in all of these instances....

[3rdPersonPlural]

Y
There should be one consistent call in all of these instances....


Upon reflection, you win.

Bah!

[pboyd]

Don't give up so easy - take a look at 2007 NFHS 4.14 Situation (P46) that states "On any restart, ball location determines the count..."
It seems to me that this Situation is contrary to what LaxFan25 is stating although I agree with him and look forward to ongoing discussion at convention - getting underway in 5 mins for Philly - later.

[laxfan25]

We're not talking about a restart in these situations though. IF there is a whistle at any time, a full count is given on the RESTART based on where the ball is (20 in the D end, 10 outside the box in the attack half), but here we're just talking about somebody gaining possession during live-ball play. So give up!
For instance, the ball is kicked into the D half, and Team B pushes during the loose ball and we whistle the play-on dead. NOW Team A would get a 20 count.

[Longpole5435]

For instance, the ball is kicked into the D half, and Team B pushes during the loose ball and we whistle the play-on dead. NOW Team A would get a 20 count.
But then if Team A picks up the ball during the play-on, the play-on is off, and the ten second count is on. How is that fair? Shouldn't they get 20, the same 20 that they would get if B scooped up the ball and the play was blown dead?

[laxfan25]

But then if Team A picks up the ball during the play-on, the play-on is off, and the ten second count is on. How is that fair? Shouldn't they get 20, the same 20 that they would get if B scooped up the ball and the play was blown dead?
LP5435, you have really come a long way since you started chiming in on the Rules forum! My example as poor, and this exact instance came up in discussions at the convention. The feeling was that if the ball was sent to the defensive end and there was an occurence that caused a play-on, the offended team should get a new 20 count, since if the offended player did nothing and there was a whistle, they would get a new 20 count. So if you encounter that situation, give them the big Swirlie signal, indicating that they get a new 20. Without the play-on or some other whistle, they're only going to get a new 10 count. Great work! :worship:

[pboyd]

One last NFHS scenario: Team A has possession on offense inside the goal area. A1 runs the ball out of the goal area and the 10-sec count starts. At 9 secs on the count A1 crosses the center line and calls a timeout in the defensive area - what is the count on the restart?

[laxfan25]

One last NFHS scenario: Team A has possession on offense inside the goal area. A1 runs the ball out of the goal area and the 10-sec count starts. At 9 secs on the count A1 crosses the center line and calls a timeout in the defensive area - what is the count on the restart?
They would get a 20 second count, since the rule says the field position determines the count on any restart. If they want to burn a timeout to avoid a turnover or to get an extended count - so be it.

[pboyd]

LF25 - I guess that we'll have to agree to disagree. The NFHS added Situation 4.14 this year stating "On any restart, ball location determines the count....." which clearly supports your position. Taking this to an extreme - if we allow this "extended" count - Team A goalie can make a save, Team A can then use the full 20-sec to advance beyond the midfield line, another 10 sec to get a touch in the goal area, pull it back using 9 sec and then calling a TO in the defensive end followed by 20-sec count on the restart, another 10 secs to get a touch and do it all over again if they have another timeout left - if you do the math this allows a team to kill almost 2 mins without having spent 2 nannoseconds in their goal area by using their two TO's. Recognizing that NFHS added this new situation under Rule 4-12 "Offside Enforcement" provides the first clue that it should be questionable and I'm not ready to embrace it just yet - remember Rule 4-29 last year which implied that we restart the ball inside the goal area following a TO?
As you know, the NCAA clarified the 10-sec count situation by adding 6 conditions where the 10-sec count ends and stating that "Once the officials start a 10-sec count on a team, any new count for that team will also be a 10-sec count (even if possession is established in the defensive end) ...." - I would hope that we get the attention of NFHS Rules committee before the season starts to fix this to align with NCAA just like we got them to fix 4-29 last year.

[LaxRef]

Team A goalie can make a save, Team A can then use the full 20-sec to advance beyond the midfield line, another 10 sec to get a touch in the goal area, pull it back using 9 sec and then calling a TO in the defensive end followed by 20-sec count on the restart, another 10 secs to get a touch and do it all over again if they have another timeout left - if you do the math this allows a team to kill almost 2 mins without having spent 2 nannoseconds in their goal area by using their two TO's.

You'd let a team pull a stunt like this without putting a stall warning on? Before they stepped into the attack area the second time, I'd tell them they were going to have to keep it in.

[Longpole5435]

You'd let a team pull a stunt like this without putting a stall warning on? Before they stepped into the attack area the second time, I'd tell them they were going to have to keep it in.
Agreed. If a team is clearly trying to burn clock and not advance the ball, just hit them with the stall warning.

I don't think any coach I know would b creative enough to think of this.

It also assumes though that the team can posess the ball long enough, which is an iffy proposition in HS.

Therefore, I am with LF25 on this. The team gets their 20.

[Snake~eyes]

You'd let a team pull a stunt like this without putting a stall warning on? Before they stepped into the attack area the second time, I'd tell them they were going to have to keep it in.
I agree 100%. Just stall warning them and don't allow them to use this technique. If the ball becomes dead in the defensive area then they get a defensive count.

[eme]

Pboyd:
I have never seen a hs team good enough or smart enough to do anything close to what you have described. As others have said, there is a stall warning we can apply if the situation ever did occur.