Out of bounds question part deux

[3rdPersonPlural]

For each question, answer where you'd award the restart and to whom:

1)A1 has possession at the gle and B1 checks his stick so that the ball sails out of bounds at the gle

2) A1 has possession at the gle and B1 checks his stick so that the ball sails out of bounds at the gle, but A2 dives over the sideline and while airborne swats the ball. Alas for him, the ball sails 15 yards up toward the midfield line but lands out of bounds there.

3) A1 has possession at the gle and B1 checks his stick so that the ball sails out of bounds at the gle, but B2, mistaken about who last touched the ball, dives over the sideline and while airborne swats the ball. Alas for him, the ball sails 15 yards up toward the midfield line but lands out of bounds there.

4) A1 has possession at the gle and B1 checks his stick so that the ball sails out of bounds at the gle, but B2, thinking his guy checked the ball and thus touched it last, dives over the sideline and while airborne swats the ball. Alas for him, the ball sails 10 yards up toward the midfield line, where B3 tries to save it by reaching over the sideline, but he only manages to knock the ball down there.

5) A1 has possession at the gle and B1 checks his stick so that the ball sails out of bounds at the gle, but B2, thinking his guy checked the ball and thus touched it last, dives over the sideline and while airborne swats the ball. Alas for him, the ball sails 10 yards up toward the midfield line, where A3 tries to save it by reaching over the sideline, but he only manages to knock the ball down there.

[Longpole5435]

1.) B at GLE

2.) B at GLE

3.) A at GLE

4.) A at GLE

5.) B at GLE

it's not perfect, but it at least consistent, which is very important in officiating.

[3rdPersonPlural]

But in 4 and 5 that last person to touch the ball before it well and truly became an OOB ball was not at the GLE.

Nonetheless, the point where the ball transgressed the plane of the sideline was indeed the gle.

How about if B3 or A3 make a tiptoe play for the ball but miss it entirely? Still GLE, even though the last place the ball was 'played' was elsewhere?

What of A3 or B3 tip the ball and it sails another 20 yards?

[Longpole5435]

But in 4 and 5 that last person to touch the ball before it well and truly became an OOB ball was not at the GLE.

Nonetheless, the point where the ball transgressed the plane of the sideline was indeed the gle.

How about if B3 or A3 make a tiptoe play for the ball but miss it entirely? Still GLE, even though the last place the ball was 'played' was elsewhere?

What of A3 or B3 tip the ball and it sails another 20 yards?
If you're gonna do where it was last played from, how about this scenario:

A1 is a big ole pole clearing the ball. He heaves it deep for an attackman for his own restraining line, but overshoots and goes out of bounds at the opposite endline. The ball never touches another player. You can't advocate giving the ball to B at the restraining box, can you? Thus, I think the best way to approach this is to award the ball at the point where the ball crosses the OOB plane. It can be saved from beyond that point, but only if it has yet to come into contact with anything else.

[C.Montgomery]

1)A1 has possession at the gle and B1 checks his stick so that the ball sails out of bounds at the gle
B @ GLE & sideline.

2) A1 has possession at the gle and B1 checks his stick so that the ball sails out of bounds at the gle, but A2 dives over the sideline and while airborne swats the ball. Alas for him, the ball sails 15 yards up toward the midfield line but lands out of bounds there.
B @ 5 yards down from top of box & sideline (assuming A2 left from in bounds, otherwise @ gle & sideline)

3) A1 has possession at the gle and B1 checks his stick so that the ball sails out of bounds at the gle, but B2, mistaken about who last touched the ball, dives over the sideline and while airborne swats the ball. Alas for him, the ball sails 15 yards up toward the midfield line but lands out of bounds there.
A @ 5 yards down from top of box & sideline (assuming B2 left from in bounds, otherwise @ gle & sideline)

4) A1 has possession at the gle and B1 checks his stick so that the ball sails out of bounds at the gle, but B2, thinking his guy checked the ball and thus touched it last, dives over the sideline and while airborne swats the ball. Alas for him, the ball sails 10 yards up toward the midfield line, where B3 tries to save it by reaching over the sideline, but he only manages to knock the ball down there.
A @ halfway between gle and restraining line & sideline (assuming B2 left from in bounds, otherwise @ gle & sideline)

5) A1 has possession at the gle and B1 checks his stick so that the ball sails out of bounds at the gle, but B2, thinking his guy checked the ball and thus touched it last, dives over the sideline and while airborne swats the ball. Alas for him, the ball sails 10 yards up toward the midfield line, where A3 tries to save it by reaching over the sideline, but he only manages to knock the ball down there.
B @ halfway between gle and restraining line & sideline (assuming B2 left from in bounds, otherwise A @ gle & sideline)


Except for free clears when there is a time-serving penalty for a few situations for fouls around the crease, and face offs, the ball is restarted where it was when the whistle blew or laterllay from that spot. If the ball is at midfield and there is a play-on for a push and we don't blow the whistle until the ball moved 25 yards towards either goal (this is just an exageratted example and assume not blowing the whistle earlier was the proper call) we don't move the ball back to where it was when the foul occured; likewise, although coaches ask for it all the time, if there is an offsides call, there is no free clear: the ball is restarted where it was when the whistle blew or laterally from there (so as not be be inside the box). Out of bounds is similar to me. I think play should be restarted where the ball was when the whistle blew, because that is where it was declared out of bounds, or laterally from there (i.e. in bounds or further in bounds near the table area).

ETA: In response to Longpole: This is also consistent.

[laxfan25]

although coaches ask for it all the time, if there is an offsides call, there is no free clear: the ball is restarted where it was when the whistle blew or laterally from there (so as not be be inside the box).
Actually, if you are playing under NFHS rules, the coaches would be correct! This is one instance where you would get a free clear on a non-time serving penalty. Ball is awarded to the non-offside team in their offensive half.

As for 3PP's scenarios;

1) B at GLE
2) B at GLE
3) A at GLE
4) A where B3 touched it last
5) B where A3 touched it last

In 4 & 5, B3 and A3 were still in-bounds players when they touched the ball, which was not OOB yet, since it hadn't touched the ground yet. If A3 or B3 stepped out of bounds before touching the ball upfield, I'd bring it back to GLE, since they would be considered the same as a player sitting on the bench at that point.

[Longpole5435]

Actually, if you are playing under NFHS rules, the coaches would be correct! This is one instance where you would get a free clear on a non-time serving penalty. Ball is awarded to the non-offside team in their offensive half.

As for 3PP's scenarios;

1) B at GLE
2) B at GLE
3) A at GLE
4) A where B3 touched it last
5) B where A3 touched it last

In 4 & 5, B3 and A3 were still in-bounds players when they touched the ball, which was not OOB yet, since it hadn't touched the ground yet. If A3 or B3 stepped out of bounds before touching the ball upfield, I'd bring it back to GLE, since they would be considered the same as a player sitting on the bench at that point.

I have reconsidered my position and I agree with LF25. :love:

[C.Montgomery]

Actually, if you are playing under NFHS rules, the coaches would be correct! This is one instance where you would get a free clear on a non-time serving penalty. Ball is awarded to the non-offside team in their offensive half.
I was just talking about NCAA rules. I forgot to specify that.

In 4 & 5, B3 and A3 were still in-bounds players when they touched the ball, which was not OOB yet, since it hadn't touched the ground yet. If A3 or B3 stepped out of bounds before touching the ball upfield, I'd bring it back to GLE, since they would be considered the same as a player sitting on the bench at that point.
So following that logic, in 5, if A3 stepped out of bounds before touching the ball, you'd bring it back to GLE, but to which team would you award the ball? Following NCAA Rule 4, AR 38, you'd award the ball to team B since A3 touched the ball last (the situation is not a perfect match, but close enough), in which case it makes no sense to me to bring the ball back to GLE.

[3rdPersonPlural]

I would call it like you would, 25, but you realize that there is no rule that we can cite to defend our actions against someone who would rationally see things like Monty.

[3rdPersonPlural]

God help us if there is a difference between how NCAA and Federation calls this.

[Longpole5435]

I would call it like you would, 25, but you realize that there is no rule that we can cite to defend our actions against someone who would rationally see things like Monty.
I think we have a situation for LR to address for the '08 rulebook... :nut:

God help us if there is a difference between how NCAA and Federation calls this.
God save the queen. :sad:

[laxfan25]

I was just talking about NCAA rules. I forgot to specify that.


So following that logic, in 5, if A3 stepped out of bounds before touching the ball, you'd bring it back to GLE, but to which team would you award the ball? Following NCAA Rule 4, AR 38, you'd award the ball to team B since A3 touched the ball last (the situation is not a perfect match, but close enough), in which case it makes no sense to me to bring the ball back to GLE.

Yes, in NCAA you'd be correct on the offside. In 5, if A2 was the last in-bounds player to touch the ball, the ball should go to B at GLE. For instance, if A1 throws a really bad pass and hits B8 sitting on the bench (who never gets in the game - rats!) you wouldn't award the ball back to A, would you?

One good thing that came out of the sessions at the convention - a very experienced and senior official said "If you're unsure of the actual rule - do the right thing!" which means do what seems fair and logical to you. This should also be the easiest call to sell to the benches. Also, we all know that players and coaches just follow our lead on restart positions - they take the ball wherever we give it to them - most are not that knowledgeable, or care!
(This senior ref also told a coach one time (who was questioning a call) "I only got to page 34 in the rulebook - that's on page 42!" Very funny speaker)

[C.Montgomery]

Yes, in NCAA you'd be correct on the offside. In 5, if A2 was the last in-bounds player to touch the ball, the ball should go to B at GLE. For instance, if A1 throws a really bad pass and hits B8 sitting on the bench (who never gets in the game - rats!) you wouldn't award the ball back to A, would you?
There's a big difference (to me) between a substitute on the bench and a player legally in the game who happens to be out of bounds. I think the examples have gotten a little mixed up, but if A1 throws the ball down field and B2 standing out of bounds is the first OOB object(including the ground) to touch the ball, I would award the ball to team A at that spot. The basis for this is AR 38 of Rule 4.

One good thing that came out of the sessions at the convention - a very experienced and senior official said "If you're unsure of the actual rule - do the right thing!" which means do what seems fair and logical to you. This should also be the easiest call to sell to the benches. Also, we all know that players and coaches just follow our lead on restart positions - they take the ball wherever we give it to them - most are not that knowledgeable, or care!
(This senior ref also told a coach one time (who was questioning a call) "I only got to page 34 in the rulebook - that's on page 42!" Very funny speaker)
Do you remember the speaker's name?
As far as players following our lead on restarts, I agree that many don't know the rules, and others know the rules but want any advantage they can so they play dumb, but the location of a restart can be important and I'd rather get it right than make everyone happy by just going with the flow. The problem here is that it's not clear what the right way is.

[pboyd]

Total agreement w/ LF25 on the 5 restart scenarios.

[laxfan25]

Do you remember the speaker's name?
As far as players following our lead on restarts, I agree that many don't know the rules, and others know the rules but want any advantage they can so they play dumb, but the location of a restart can be important and I'd rather get it right than make everyone happy by just going with the flow. The problem here is that it's not clear what the right way is.

Phil DiDimineco - it's the second year he has presented at the convention and he has been a very entertaining speaker each time!
Since it's not totally clear, I will use the "where it crossed the sideline/endline" on it's way OOB mechanic. It's worked for me for 20+ years with no problems.