NCAA Stick Check Quiz

[LaxRef]

Assume the "usual" penalties for fouls (i.e., they are severe enough for a flag but don't warrant extra time served).

(1) A1 has possession and is slashed by B1 while he is clearing the ball. A1 throws the ball into the attack area, creating a loose ball. While the ball is loose, B2 illegally pushes A2. A2 picks up the ball, shoots, and scores. The officials run in and grab A2 and B2's crosses for an inspection. Both sticks measure 6.25 inches at the widest point in the head. Ruling? Be sure to include all penalty time, releasability, the correct restart, and any other relevant information.

(2) A1 has possession and is slashed by B1 while he is clearing the ball. A1 throws the ball into the attack area, creating a loose ball. While the ball is loose, A2 slashes B2. The officials stop play, and Team B calls for a timeout. The officials grab A2 and B2's crosses for an inspection. Both sticks measure 6.25 inches at the widest point in the head. Ruling? Be sure to include all penalty time, releasability, the correct restart, and any other relevant information.

(3) A1 shoots and scores. The officials run in to grab A2 and B2's crosses for an inspection; A2 pulls his strings and then B2 jams his head into the ground (B2's stick, not A2's head!). Both sticks measure 6.25 inches at the widest point in the head, and both pockets are too deep. Ruling? Be sure to include all penalty time, releasability, the correct restart, and any other relevant information.

[eme]

I need the practice
1. B1 in for a minute NR, A2 and B2 both in for 3 minutes NR. A2's goal comes off the board and this is where I skitter onto thin ice...I'd say we go find B2 and give him the bad news that since there was no goal he now serves 30 seconds NR for the push.
I would say that B1's minute is NR (and not NR for just 30 seconds) is my reading of the phrase "longest common penalty time between players of opposing team is NR..."

2. At the point of the Timeout we have simultaneous fouls B1 in for a minute slash and A2 in for a minute slash, both NR. But A2 has an additional 3 min NR tacked on for his illegal stick. B2 joins him for 3 min.NR as well. Total penalty times are equal for both teams. Since the flag was down on B for a slash when this mess started I say "flag down denotes possession" so A gets the ball back outside the box.

3.The goal stands. A2 and B2 both receive 4 min. NR. Start with a faceoff.
I get 4 total minutes by taking the one minute NR and adding the greater of of the stick infractions, 3 minutes (disregard deep pocket).

[LaxRef]

eme, I think everything you've said is correct, but you didn't discuss the awarding of the ball and location of the restart in (1).

[laxfan25]

My head is spinning!

1) B1 is in for a minute - but I think it's releaseable, since there was no simultaneous fould on A on that live-ball play. As eme picked up on, the goal is disallowed, so B2 takes 30 for the push, in addition to the 3 minutes NR that both he and A2 received for the illegal sticks. Since A2 has less penalty time than B2 received, A gets the ball outside the box.

2) B1 and A2 both take 1 min NR for their simultaneous fouls. A2 tacks on another 3 min NR, and B2 gets the same. Since A2 has more penalty time than B2, B gets the ball, under 7-3 they would get it outside the box in their D end.

3) Goal is good by A1. 4 mins for A2 and B2 for the longer illegal stick penalties, plus the minute bonus for touching the head or jamming it. Since their penalty times are equal and a faceoff was impending - let's do a faceoff!

[eme]

LaxFan: I agree on #1 that A gets ball outside the box since they had less penalty time total. But B1's time is NR as is B2's. "From the moment the flag is dropped...all the way through until the sounding of the whistle to restart the next play...all time-serving penalties on players from opposing teams are locked in...longest common penalty time blah blah.."
The longest common penalty time that both Team A and Team B have is 1 minute.

[laxfan25]

LaxFan: I agree on #1 that A gets ball outside the box since they had less penalty time total. But B1's time is NR as is B2's. "From the moment the flag is dropped...all the way through until the sounding of the whistle to restart the next play...all time-serving penalties on players from opposing teams are locked in...longest common penalty time blah blah.."

Man there's alot to know in that rulebook, and LaxRef just keeps making it longer! :grin:

[LaxRef]

LaxFan: I agree on #1 that A gets ball outside the box since they had less penalty time total. But B1's time is NR as is B2's. "From the moment the flag is dropped...all the way through until the sounding of the whistle to restart the next play...all time-serving penalties on players from opposing teams are locked in...longest common penalty time blah blah.."
The longest common penalty time that both Team A and Team B have is 1 minute.

The key in #1 is not less total penalty time overall. Team A is due possession when the whistle blows due to the flag down and the simultaneous foul situation with team B's fouls. Thus, Team A is due possession when the simultaneous fouls occur. Of course, you get the same result if you do overall penalty time (live ball + dead ball), but it's an important poitn philosophically.

Oh, and the longest common penalty time from players on oppsing teams in this case is 3:00, so all penalties 3:00 and shorter are NR.

[LaxRef]

Man there's alot to know in that rulebook, and LaxRef just keeps making it longer! :grin:

(A) Sometimes making it longer makes it simpler.

(B) I had nothing to do with creating Simul. Fouls or the new mechanic for stick checks.

[eme]

Nice to know I got the answer right in #1 even though my process of getting there was flawed.

[eme]

Wait...in #1 above B has more total penalty time than does Team A. It's a siumltaneous foul situation. Therefore , the first way to determine who gets the ball is the first one listed in the book page 87 under "Award the Ball": less total penalty time.

[LaxRef]

Wait...in #1 above B has more total penalty time than does Team A. It's a siumltaneous foul situation. Therefore , the first way to determine who gets the ball is the first one listed in the book page 87 under "Award the Ball": less total penalty time.

Sorry, I got my situations confused (I knew I should have done them one at a time!). But, in situation (1) we never get to total penalty time, because the slash by B1 is live-ball (the push is wiped out) and is not simultaneous with the stick fouls (although 7-2-d applies). Thus, Team A is due possession for the flag down, and then we have simultaneous fouls during the dead ball. Since penalty times are equal, we award the ball to the team entitled to possession, and that's Team A, so total pealty time never enters the equation (well, I guess it does in that for the simultaneous dead-ball fouls, it's equal).

For (2), we have two sets of simultaneous fouls, one live-ball and one dead-ball. Team A is due possession in the first one since penalty times were equal and they had less overall penalty time. Since penalty times are equal in the dead-ball foul situation, Team A is entitled to possession and gets the ball.

And I just realized your answer to (3) is incorrect. The adjusting of the crosses are not simultaneous, so we have a dead-ball USC on A1, then one on B1, entitling Team A to possession. Then we have dead-ball simultaneous fouls with all penalty times equal and Team A entitled to possession, so Team A gets it.

Where are the restarts in all of these?

[eme]

The better way to think of #1 is that there are two separate incidents.
The first is the flag down for the slash and then another flag for the push.
A is getting the ball out of this. THEN we have another incident: two illegal sticks with equal penalty time. Stick checks we consider to be simultaneous even though physically one follows the other.

I got into trouble with #3 thinking that, like stick checks on opposing teams, that "adjusting of the crosse" would be a "simultaneous" act (like a stick check)...but it's one USC followed by another USC.

You ask about a restart. A is getting the ball in all 3 cases. So I would go all the way back to the restart that would have happened on the original flag down (before all the stick stuff). Outside the box in the alley parallel to the goal line for the two cases involving a goal and outside the box nearest the spot the ball was when the whistle sounded on the case that didn't involve a goal..

[laxfan25]

Why is A getting the ball in situation 2?

LaxRef said above - "For (2), we have two sets of simultaneous fouls, one live-ball and one dead-ball. Team A is due possession in the first one since penalty times were equal and they had less overall penalty time. Since penalty times are equal in the dead-ball foul situation, Team A is entitled to possession and gets the ball."

B1 had a slash in live-ball play, then A2 took a slash call also - equal times. A2 and B2 both got three minutes for the illegal sticks, so it appears that penalty times are equal across the board. How does this equate to A getting possession?

[Lax Fan26]

Assume the "usual" penalties for fouls (i.e., they are severe enough for a flag but don't warrant extra time served).

(1) A1 has possession and is slashed by B1 while he is clearing the ball. A1 throws the ball into the attack area, creating a loose ball. While the ball is loose, B2 illegally pushes A2. A2 picks up the ball, shoots, and scores. The officials run in and grab A2 and B2's crosses for an inspection. Both sticks measure 6.25 inches at the widest point in the head. Ruling? Be sure to include all penalty time, releasability, the correct restart, and any other relevant information.

(2) A1 has possession and is slashed by B1 while he is clearing the ball. A1 throws the ball into the attack area, creating a loose ball. While the ball is loose, A2 slashes B2. The officials stop play, and Team B calls for a timeout. The officials grab A2 and B2's crosses for an inspection. Both sticks measure 6.25 inches at the widest point in the head. Ruling? Be sure to include all penalty time, releasability, the correct restart, and any other relevant information.

(3) A1 shoots and scores. The officials run in to grab A2 and B2's crosses for an inspection; A2 pulls his strings and then B2 jams his head into the ground (B2's stick, not A2's head!). Both sticks measure 6.25 inches at the widest point in the head, and both pockets are too deep. Ruling? Be sure to include all penalty time, releasability, the correct restart, and any other relevant information.

In #1 & 2, I presume that when you say A1 is clearing and "throws the ball into the attack area", you mean A's offensive area instead of the area near where he was slashed. Once A1 crosses the midfield, we no longer say that A1 is clearing, yes? :thinking:

[LaxRef]

Why is A getting the ball in situation 2?

LaxRef said above - "For (2), we have two sets of simultaneous fouls, one live-ball and one dead-ball. Team A is due possession in the first one since penalty times were equal and they had less overall penalty time. Since penalty times are equal in the dead-ball foul situation, Team A is entitled to possession and gets the ball."

B1 had a slash in live-ball play, then A2 took a slash call also - equal times. A2 and B2 both got three minutes for the illegal sticks, so it appears that penalty times are equal across the board. How does this equate to A getting possession?

B1 slashes A1, flag down. Then, during the same live ball, A1 slashes B1. By definition, these are simultaneous fouls. Since Team A was entitled to possession by the original flag down, and since penalty times are equal, Team A gets possession. The key is that B had the first penalty in the live-ball sequence.

Now we're in a dead-ball situation, and we have simultaneous fouls with equal penalty time. Team A was entitled to possession from the first sequence, so they still get possession.

Make sense?

[LaxRef]

In #1 & 2, I presume that when you say A1 is clearing and "throws the ball into the attack area", you mean A's offensive area instead of the area near where he was slashed. Once A1 crosses the midfield, we no longer say that A1 is clearing, yes? :thinking:

You're right, but he's slashed while he's clearing. Once that happens, he could throw the ball from the defensive zone into zone 4, or he could run into zone 3 and then throw the ball into zone 4.

But, yes, when I say "the attack area," I always mean the offensive attack area, or zone 4.

[eme]

LaxFan: go to NCAA page 89 AR 29 and this will answer your question. Penalty times were identical but the first flag down indicated possession....

[avo]

Thank god I only do NFHS games and play would have ended with loose ball on 1 & 2.

On 3 wouldn't restart be at midfield since goal counted?

[LaxRef]

Thank god I only do NFHS games and play would have ended with loose ball on 1 & 2.

On 3 wouldn't restart be at midfield since goal counted?

You are correct regarding 3; it's going there even if no goal is scored because we can track the sequence of the first two dead-ball fouls.

You are correct regarding 1 & 2, but it wouldn't be too hard to modify the situations so they more or less track for NFHS rules.

[Longpole5435]

Shouldn't have even tried. :DOH: :bawling: :WTF: