A second ball on the field

[DanHS]

This comes from a discussion about football and I have tried to apply to lacrosse. A1 is advancing the ball near the sidelines where the B1 creates a loose ball situation with a legal check. As A and B are scrambling for the ball you notice a second ball on the field. The second ball presumably came from Team A since the play is occurring near Team A’s bench.

When if at all do you stop play? Do you wait for it to appear as if the second ball is being played? If you stop play before possession then whose ball is it?

What would you do if you believed that the second ball represented an intentional act on the part of the sidelines or is Team A responsible in any either case?

There was not complete agreement for football and I assume there would not be total agreement here.

[LaxRef]

This comes from a discussion about football and I have tried to apply to lacrosse. A1 is advancing the ball near the sidelines where the B1 creates a loose ball situation with a legal check. As A and B are scrambling for the ball you notice a second ball on the field. The second ball presumably came from Team A since the play is occurring near Team A’s bench.

When if at all do you stop play? Do you wait for it to appear as if the second ball is being played? If you stop play before possession then whose ball is it?

What would you do if you believed that the second ball represented an intentional act on the part of the sidelines or is Team A responsible in any either case?

There was not complete agreement for football and I assume there would not be total agreement here.

The general principle we apply in similar situations is that, if possible, we should wait for possession and then kill the play if doing so wouldn't interfere with an imminent socring opportunity. If there's any danger of confusion, kill the play while the ball is still loose and award by AP.

If the ball came onto the field because Team A was being stupid (guys playing catch in the team area and there's a bad pass), you could probably sell a "delay of game" call and award the ball to Team B, even though this isn't covered in the rulebook. The coach will probably be pissed at his players anyway, not you.

If Team A did it deliberately, I don't see anyone arguing with a USC.

[BlueDevils16]

Sort of off-topic, but still in the ballpark, in a Box game last year, the ball was thrown full-floor and over the opposite boards, one ref next to either net...both refs get out balls, and once one realises it, he pretends nothing happened... I gave the other ball back to one ref, which he didn't touch, because by that time the other ref had taken his ball back and acted like there was no mistake made... At this point their point man (their first man for shootouts) picked it up and scored an easy breakaway goal... What would a ref do, because if the disallow the goal, the scoring team freaks out, but if the goal is allowed, the team trying to fix an officating mistake gets screwed for a goal?

[inblack]

i have to assume that one of the officials blew the play in.
probably the official that DID NOT return the ball to his pocket.

This play should have started nearest where the ball went out of bounds. At the far end of the floor.
The the point man ran the entire length (200 feet) of the floor and scored on your team.
There was a whistle to start play, and not one of your defenders took this guy on?

I would have to say that the referees mis-communicated. They should not start the play with two balls on the floor. They should be aware of which one of them is putting the ball in play and starting the play.

However if the Ref's did not react fast enough to kill the play, they can't take the goal away. You teammates have to realize and react to the whistle' this play is live! and play the ball/man until the whistle sounds to stop the play again.

[laxfan25]

Sort of off-topic, but still in the ballpark, in a Box game last year, the ball was thrown full-floor and over the opposite boards, one ref next to either net...both refs get out balls, and once one realises it, he pretends nothing happened... I gave the other ball back to one ref, which he didn't touch, because by that time the other ref had taken his ball back and acted like there was no mistake made... At this point their point man (their first man for shootouts) picked it up and scored an easy breakaway goal... What would a ref do, because if the disallow the goal, the scoring team freaks out, but if the goal is allowed, the team trying to fix an officating mistake gets screwed for a goal?
If it was the refs' mistake, where they introduced two balls into play - the refs have to suck it up, admit they made the mistake and go back and correct the error. In this case, disallow the goal and put ONE ball back in play where it would have been after sailing out of bounds.

[inblack]

LF25 you are right, that would be fair

cant do that in a box game. we blow the play in and its live until we stop it. It is our responsibility to make sure the situation is correct before we start it. If its not, we are supposed to recognize this fast enough to act before it effects the game

These referees would have been crucified by a supervisor if one were present at the game, but they cant take the goal back.

What I find truly odd is that the official on the Opposite end of the floor is taking a ball out of his pocket. He should only be doing this if his partner is asking him for one, because he is out.
The referee starting the play should be surveying the floor prior to blowing his whistle, did the the ball that went over the glass bounce back on to the floor? Is my partner ready? is the goalies helmet on? etc ....

[DanHS]

1. I would agree that we have to admit our mistake if the officials introduce a second ball during a dead ball. It happens lots of times in field when the ball goes over the sidelines.

2. On the original scenario, I am not sure there is a specific rule that could be cited but most would agree - I hope - that the play should be killed immediately. In football the foul would be illegal participation since it is a non-player foul or USC. If the ball entered the field during play as opposed to a dead ball, I think a penalty is in order but time-serving may be too punitive. What would you call to simply ige possession to the offended team?

[laxfan25]

LF25 you are right, that would be fair
It is certainly the fair thing to do, but in the NCAA rulebook, they even give us something to fall back on...
Mistakes by Officials
SECTION 12. When a timekeeper, scorer or official makes a mistake
that would result in a team or player being penalized and another official
becomes aware that a mistake is being made, that official shall promptly
correct the mistake. If goals are scored during the mistake made by the
timer, scorer or an official and it is brought to the attention of the referee
before the next live ball, the referee must allow or disallow the goal,
depending on the circumstances.

[LaxRef]

LF25 you are right, that would be fair

cant do that in a box game. we blow the play in and its live until we stop it. It is our responsibility to make sure the situation is correct before we start it. If its not, we are supposed to recognize this fast enough to act before it effects the game

I find it troublesome that a goal could be allowed to stand in box as a result of a gross error by the officials. The offensive team in possession of two balls, both of which must be defended, is such a huge disadvantage to the defense that I don't see how the goal could be allowed to stand.

[eme]

At least a 1 min. USC if deliberate and, of course, two minutes if it didn't have the NCAA or NFHS stamp on it, respectively....

[inblack]

I find it troublesome that a goal could be allowed to stand in box as a result of a gross error by the officials. The offensive team in possession of two balls, both of which must be defended, is such a huge disadvantage to the defense that I don't see how the goal could be allowed to stand.


The key to that is in his example he clearly states that the one official took his ball back

I gave the other ball back to one ref, which he didn't touch, because by that time the other ref had taken his ball back

so player A1 is given a ball by R1 at the same time as player A2 is given one by R2. (frankly this should NOT have happened)
R2 takes the ball back away from A2. (good, one of 'em noticed an error)
A1 tries to give R1 his ball back but by this time R1 has blown the play in. R1 refuses to take the ball. B1 picks up this now loose ball and breaks down the floor towards A's goal. (at this time R1 should have reacted and blown play dead, this did not happen) B1 shoots and scores.

This is how I read Blue Devils question, and the sequence of events.
In this situation there is only one live ball. Referee error FOR SURE but only one ball.