End of good school bad school

[ShockerAutc]

Now, a lot of questions on here are, "Is this a good school?" or "such and such is a bad school." Then there is the talk of what princeton review says or rating from international sources. This misses the whole point of selecting a college 100%. The question that needs to be asked is, "Is this school a good fit for me?
If a school is ranked #1, say Harvard for example, and you want a school with academics, is harvard really the #1 school? Statistically yes, but is it the #1 school for you?

If you're a motivated student who enjoys the school he goes to, you will learn, whether you're at Salisbury(sp), Harvard, or Fresno State. Being accepted to Harvard doesn't mean you're smarter or will learn more then the guy who goes to Fresno. It means most likely you dedicated yourself more in high school and want to go to a place where other hard working motivated students went. You can learn as much at any school as you can at any other school, it is up to you. Which is why you should look at other things besides GPA or rankings. Is the campus nice, how big is the school, Professor taught classes or T.A's? Even, the whether, distance from home? It is your motivation and how hard you are willing to that determines how much you learn, not an arbitrary ranking. You don't learn more just b/c you went to a prestigious school. Now I'm not saying Harvard and Stanford for examples are bad schools, nothing could be more wrong, but they are not nessacarily the best school. My point is, make a decision looking at a number of factors, not just a ranking, and it is the school that is best for you is the one you will be most successfull at.

[lazylightning]

that's why I encouraged the poster to take a look at the Princeton Review and any other resource that tells you about a school. It wasn't for lacrosse it was for academics and more importantly campus life.If you go to a private college you're going to spend a lot of money- you might as well do as much research as possible.

[Agent Orange]

As someone at the hiring end of the business world, my 2-cents for high school seniors is to choose a school that has name-recogition across the country and make sure it's affordable. If for no other reason, networking in the post-college world is what opens doors.

I tell kids to put themselves in the hiring manager's position of a west coast company in, say, San Francisco: suppose you're an east coast kid and you're trying to decide between School A and School B. School A is a small private institution, perhaps ranked in the DIII top 30 or so, probably an up and coming program in the lacrosse world, and their coach has you convinced that, coincidentally, his school is also "well known" for it's grads and academics. School B, on the other hand, is a state university with major gravitas attached to the name, but who's lax program -if they have one- isn't that well known. Given those circumstances, I say to the kid, "who do you think stands a better chance of getting hired if 2 grads from either school were applying for the same job?"

I guess the central part of my point here is that I agree with you about comparing quality of received education whether it's Harvard, Sals, or Fresno, etc. But, in my humble opinion, to the business world, possesing a degree form Harvard or Stanford (vs that from Sals or Fresno) is like comparing apples to bowling balls.


Now, a lot of questions on here are, "Is this a good school?" or "such and such is a bad school." Then there is the talk of what princeton review says or rating from international sources. This misses the whole point of selecting a college 100%. The question that needs to be asked is, "Is this school a good fit for me?
If a school is ranked #1, say Harvard for example, and you want a school with academics, is harvard really the #1 school? Statistically yes, but is it the #1 school for you?

If you're a motivated student who enjoys the school he goes to, you will learn, whether you're at Salisbury(sp), Harvard, or Fresno State. Being accepted to Harvard doesn't mean you're smarter or will learn more then the guy who goes to Fresno. It means most likely you dedicated yourself more in high school and want to go to a place where other hard working motivated students went. You can learn as much at any school as you can at any other school, it is up to you. Which is why you should look at other things besides GPA or rankings. Is the campus nice, how big is the school, Professor taught classes or T.A's? Even, the whether, distance from home? It is your motivation and how hard you are willing to that determines how much you learn, not an arbitrary ranking. You don't learn more just b/c you went to a prestigious school. Now I'm not saying Harvard and Stanford for examples are bad schools, nothing could be more wrong, but they are not nessacarily the best school. My point is, make a decision looking at a number of factors, not just a ranking, and it is the school that is best for you is the one you will be most successfull at.

[Garor]

You should also consider how the college or university ranks in that department, and if you are considering grad school. You can always go to a big name school for grad school. But never put lacrosse before academics. Academics will pay the bills later in life.

[ShockerAutc]

[QUOTE=Agent Orange]As someone at the hiring end of the business world, my 2-cents for high school seniors is to choose a school that has name-recogition across the country and make sure it's affordable. If for no other reason, networking in the post-college world is what opens doors.


I think the degree from stanford or harvard or yale only helps you for a first job. It might be compared to all day kindergarden. It helps at the very beginning, but by second or third grade it is nearly impossible to tell the difference. In the end, if you're a skilled worker who has qualities an employer wants and does excellent work, you will rise.

[wolfie8914]

Being accepted to Harvard doesn't mean you're smarter or will learn more then the guy who goes to Fresno.

Yea...it kinda does mean that.

[truth]

[QUOTE=Agent Orange]As someone at the hiring end of the business world, my 2-cents for high school seniors is to choose a school that has name-recogition across the country and make sure it's affordable. If for no other reason, networking in the post-college world is what opens doors.


I think the degree from stanford or harvard or yale only helps you for a first job. It might be compared to all day kindergarden. It helps at the very beginning, but by second or third grade it is nearly impossible to tell the difference. In the end, if you're a skilled worker who has qualities an employer wants and does excellent work, you will rise.

How true. As I've posted on here before, when you are 30-35, if you are successful in your career, no one cares where you went to school.

[wolfie8914]

[QUOTE=ShockerAutc]

How true. As I've posted on here before, when you are 30-35, if you are successful in your career, no one cares where you went to school.

Well yes obviously. But herein lies the problem: getting to a place where you can be successful is MUCH easer coming from say, Harvard, than it is coming from say, Fresno State.

[truth]

[QUOTE=truth]

Well yes obviously. But herein lies the problem: getting to a place where you can be successful is MUCH easer coming from say, Harvard, than it is coming from say, Fresno State.


True, but what % of high school seniors can go Ivy or afford $50K+ per year?

[Agent Orange]

You're right about that and I have to agree that the advantage isn't as workable once the years settle in. However, it's that name recognition that puts those grads at the head of the line, gets them in the door first, and in the door with the higher starting salaries with positions at most desirable companies. That's a headstart in earning power as well. And, I think that's what you're really buying -that opportunity- and connections beyond when you get that elite-school degree.

I think the degree from stanford or harvard or yale only helps you for a first job. It might be compared to all day kindergarden. It helps at the very beginning, but by second or third grade it is nearly impossible to tell the difference. In the end, if you're a skilled worker who has qualities an employer wants and does excellent work, you will rise.[/QUOTE]

[ShockerAutc]

[QUOTE=Agent Orange]You're right about that and I have to agree that the advantage isn't as workable once the years settle in. However, it's that name recognition that puts those grads at the head of the line, gets them in the door first, and in the door with the higher starting salaries with positions at most desirable companies. That's a headstart in earning power as well. And, I think that's what you're really buying -that opportunity- and connections beyond when you get that elite-school degree.

I'd have to agree the first job comes easier if you're a harvard grad. BUt nonetheless, I'm a firm believer the best rise in the end. I started this thread in the hope people would look at a larger picture then ranking and prestigious names. I mean, if you're not happy in New Haven COnneticut, I doubt you'll be doing a lot of learning @ Yale.

[wolfie8914]

[QUOTE=wolfie8914]


True, but what % of high school seniors can go Ivy or afford $50K+ per year?

yea well thats not what the question in the thread is.

[truth]

The post is discussing fit at colleges. I think academics and economics need to be taken into consideration when talking about fit.

[LAXMomx3]

The post is discussing fit at colleges. I think academics and economics need to be taken into consideration when talking about fit.

My kids' HS college counseling's office has a motto, "College is a match to be made, not a prize to be won." This said, these kids go off to some of the most elite colleges in the country. They range from state schools to the Ivy Leagues. Mostly the DI and elite III athletes are picked for hockey. However, because so many hockey boys also play lax in MN, they won the hotbed in 2005 and were in the running 2006, as well as our team going undefeated for two years in a row, we're starting to get some looks there as well. But the bottom line, these kids are students first. They know the level of academics at a school will directly impact their ability to be successful academically AND play a sport. Fit is crucial to this end. It will do you absolutely no good to go to a school like Harvard if you'd be in over your head with academics alone. While there is a certain degree of name recognition, no one is going to care in 20 years what your win/loss record was, but they WILL care whether or not you successfully graduated. And from where does open a certain amt of initial doors.

One also has to remember that some schools are more recognized in certain fields than in others, Div I, II or III. And some will better prepare students for admission into various graduate schools over others. Let's face it, we're getting to the point where a college degree is expected and it's the degrees that follow that will set you apart.

Most important: What I have always loved about watching the NCAA Championships is the player bios about their academic success. That is truly what sets lacrosse above the rest. Unless the sport lowers it's standards and will take any thug on the street like so many football and basketball programs, it will always behoove the lacrosse afectionado to be as academically successful as possible while also putting out their best on the field. As for costs: While scholarship and the rest are limited in Division I and non-existent in Division III, never underestimate the ability of a division III school with a large endowment to give away academic scholarship and creatively use their financial aid for students. I honestly don't believe that the cost of a school should ever prevent the academic athlete from applying. Sometimes, simply because of their flexiblity, the yrly cost of a private institution can be less than that of a state school who is completely held hostage by federal dollars.

It's what you do with opportunity, not that it came knocking. This said, protect your assets, your best investment in lacrosse should be your helmet! :-)

[ShockerAutc]

The post is discussing fit at colleges. I think academics and economics need to be taken into consideration when talking about fit.


But I think academic rank is something that is overbloated for importance. And that people miss the point you will learn just as much at a local school then an Ivy League if you're actually a student. Basically, just b/c you went to yale doesnt me you learned more then the guy went unlv. Maybe ask yourself, do I want to go here b.c it is ranked highly and thats it or do I want to go here for the overall package. Or, am I not going here b/c of an arbitrary ranking that really has nothing to do with an individual person. But yes, I agree acadedmics is part of the fit. I just think its what you put into it is what you'll get out of it. Economics too, unfortunaley is a part of the decision.

[truth]

But I think academic rank is something that is overbloated for importance. And that people miss the point you will learn just as much at a local school then an Ivy League if you're actually a student. Basically, just b/c you went to yale doesnt me you learned more then the guy went unlv. Maybe ask yourself, do I want to go here b.c it is ranked highly and thats it or do I want to go here for the overall package. Or, am I not going here b/c of an arbitrary ranking that really has nothing to do with an individual person. But yes, I agree acadedmics is part of the fit. I just think its what you put into it is what you'll get out of it. Economics too, unfortunaley is a part of the decision.

I agree 100% about what you put into is what you get out of it. When you are 30 and killing it in the business world, no one will care where you went to school.

[nelax]

The advantage to going to an "elite" school is for the opportunities to work with the people who are the tops in their fields and the challenge that goes with it . At a school like Harvard you may get an opportunity to work on a study with a Noble Prize winner. You won't get that opportunity like that at Salisbury.

[pantherLax]

So grades dont really matter as long as you have the heart and determination to succeed when it matters?

The only difference between a Harvard and a Fresno State is the environment you are in and the difference in opportunity of experiences? But those experiences in the end dont matter because its the determination that matters...correct?

(This isnt my POV, but from this thread, thats what I'm concluding...but maybe I read wrong..)

[wolfie8914]

So grades dont really matter as long as you have the heart and determination to succeed when it matters?

The only difference between a Harvard and a Fresno State is the environment you are in and the difference in opportunity of experiences? But those experiences in the end dont matter because its the determination that matters...correct?

(This isnt my POV, but from this thread, thats what I'm concluding...but maybe I read wrong..)

Obviously too a certain degree determination matters. But a place can only raise you to a certain level, whereas a place like Harvard can raise your potential even higher.

At the end of the day.....the fact is....a determined student at Harvard is SO MUCH MORE likely than doing well and succeeding in life than the Fresno kid. I dont understand why people arent accepting this fate. This is life.

Even the kid that isnt a super determined kid at Harvard will probably do better than the Fresno kid. Why? Well, because when you graduate a lot more people want a kid coming from a place called "Harvard" than a place called "Fresno State." There is a lot in a name.

Lastly, people have been saying that it doesnt matter where you went to college when you are 30 and doing very well. There are a few problems with this assumption. First of of all, unless you have guranteed job security, finding a new job and using your credentials is something that matters. Also, you assume the Fresno State kid is automatically going to be successful. Sure, it's possible that Fresno student does well, but it is so much more likely that the Harvard kid does.

[checklax]

So youre saying, if two kids, one that came from Fresno and one that came from Harvard applied for a job after graduating, the fresno kid might be picked over the Harvard kid? For example, say both students have the same grades, same foreign language, and instrument or sport. Who do you think is going to get the job? It's not going to be the Fresno kid.

[wolfie8914]

So youre saying, if two kids, one that came from Fresno and one that came from Harvard applied for a job after graduating, the fresno kid might be picked over the Harvard kid? For example, say both students have the same grades, same foreign language, and instrument or sport. Who do you think is going to get the job? It's not going to be the Fresno kid.

Correct, it's obviously not going to be the Fresno kid. And no, I am not saying the Fresno will be picked over the Harvard.

[Riot]

You can learn as much at any school as you can at any other school, it is up to you.
Yes, but if a Harvard student would put the same amount of energy into learning while at Harvard as the Fresno State kid did to learn enough to have learned as much as an average Harvard student, I have no doubt that the Harvard kid would come out ahead.

[ShockerAutc]

I'm saying arbitrary rank of school academics is for the most part pointless, b/c that rank doesn't really affect you, it wont make you a better or worse student. If the kid at fresno is a lot more determined to learn his field then the kid from Harvard, he will learn a lot more then the slacker at harvard. Obviously, this works both ways. The point of the thread is to take other things into account besides a ranking, simply an number put on a piece of paper which has little affect on you, to choose the place that you will be the happiest at. I will not compromise on the point that you will learn more from the place you are happiest at then at the place that has the best ranking. if the best package for you is Harvard, then take it, but if it isn't, don't go to the college simply b/c of prestige. Obviously the prestigious degree will get you the first job, but as stated above, ten years later, no one gives a damn where you went, they care about the work you have done since leaving. So, unless you're a Bush or a Rockefeller, plan on doing something after you graduated, not relying on a name. If a kid from two schools, take your pick, put in the same amount of work, I think they'd learn about the same...

So when choosing your college take these things into account(this is the order of importance to me, but if it is differnt for you then change it)

1. location 2. size of school 3. Weather 4. Professor or TA taught 5. Prestige 6. Ranking (3 and 4 might seem of out place, but I decided if can't stand the weather then it doesn't matter who teaches the class anyways)

But, there are other factors besides a ranking, since the ranking doesn't make you a better student, you make yourself a better student. Make a list of important factors and choose from there. No point in going the highest ranked and most prestigious school if you're unhappy there...

[lilaxgurl23]

1. location 2. size of school 3. Weather 4. Professor or TA taught 5. Prestige 6. Ranking (3 and 4 might seem of out place, but I decided if can't stand the weather then it doesn't matter who teaches the class anyways)

I hope you're taking into consideration if they have your major or not. It would be horrible to end up at say RPI if you wanted to major in something like a language :ahhno:

Anyways, I believe that going to a more prestiegious or well-known college, such as an Ivy, will open more doors for you. Not necessarily because of the name (although no doubt that should help you), but because of the many, many connections that you will gain from going to a school with a name. That being said, once you're out an into the real world and have had a few jobs, I have heard that your college becomes less important. Employers are going to look at previous employers and what they have to say, moreso than your education (especially in this day and age where you're constantly learning even after college anyways). My mom is a pretty high up at a fortune 500 company, I could tell you about numerous people. Some attended Ivies while others attended local colleges (albeit, those are pretty legit colleges). Really, how hard you work determines a lot, but the college you attend could make it a tad bit easier on you.

At the end of the day, I strongly encourage you guys to seriously research your options. Don't go to a school without knowing every detail of what you're getting yourself into, whether it includes an extended lacrosse career or not. You want to go to a school that fits you best, in all aspects, so that you can succeed to your highest potential.

[wolfie8914]

I hope you're taking into consideration if they have your major or not. It would be horrible to end up at say RPI if you wanted to major in something like a language :ahhno:

Anyways, I believe that going to a more prestiegious or well-known college, such as an Ivy, will open more doors for you. Not necessarily because of the name (although no doubt that should help you), but because of the many, many connections that you will gain from going to a school with a name. That being said, once you're out an into the real world and have had a few jobs, I have heard that your college becomes less important. Employers are going to look at previous employers and what they have to say, moreso than your education (especially in this day and age where you're constantly learning even after college anyways). My mom is a pretty high up at a fortune 500 company, I could tell you about numerous people. Some attended Ivies while others attended local colleges (albeit, those are pretty legit colleges). Really, how hard you work determines a lot, but the college you attend could make it a tad bit easier on you.

At the end of the day, I strongly encourage you guys to seriously research your options. Don't go to a school without knowing every detail of what you're getting yourself into, whether it includes an extended lacrosse career or not. You want to go to a school that fits you best, in all aspects, so that you can succeed to your highest potential.

nicely put.

[ShockerAutc]

I hope you're taking into consideration if they have your major or not. It would be horrible to end up at say RPI if you wanted to major in something like a language :ahhno:

Anyways, I believe that going to a more prestiegious or well-known college, such as an Ivy, will open more doors for you. Not necessarily because of the name (although no doubt that should help you), but because of the many, many connections that you will gain from going to a school with a name. That being said, once you're out an into the real world and have had a few jobs, I have heard that your college becomes less important. Employers are going to look at previous employers and what they have to say, moreso than your education (especially in this day and age where you're constantly learning even after college anyways). My mom is a pretty high up at a fortune 500 company, I could tell you about numerous people. Some attended Ivies while others attended local colleges (albeit, those are pretty legit colleges). Really, how hard you work determines a lot, but the college you attend could make it a tad bit easier on you.

At the end of the day, I strongly encourage you guys to seriously research your options. Don't go to a school without knowing every detail of what you're getting yourself into, whether it includes an extended lacrosse career or not. You want to go to a school that fits you best, in all aspects, so that you can succeed to your highest potential.


I agree for the most part. Ha, yes, having your major would help. Can't go to my local school for masters, as they don't have a law program.

[wolfie8914]

Well one thing is for sure.. if you go to grad school, where you go for that matters a whole lot more in terms of a career than where you went undergrad.

[tomtom]

My 2 cents-(probably already stated somehwere or another in this thread/forum)

-Grad school is more important than undergrad.
-LAX is less important than academics.
-Big name state schools will get more recognition than small artsy schools.
-No matter what school you go to, what you get out of it will be what you put into it! Hard work and your nbatural and dderived talents will make a greater impact than the name of your school!

[wolfie8914]

[QUOTE=tomtom-Big name state schools will get more recognition than small artsy schools.
[/QUOTE]


I completely disagree. Unless you mean recognition in a very literal sense. People know a school like middlebury is far more prestigious than like Ohio State...

[Agent Orange]

There was a study a few years back conducted by a professor at Princeton on the validity of what we're all say here. His conclusion was that, with the exception of schools such as the Ivies, MIT, Stanford, etc., there is no discernable difference in earning power for grads 5 years after graduation. I think the findings were based on survey results, etc.

So, I think what his study was saying was this;
If you can do an Ivy, and MIT, etc., then do it -because the proof is in the pudding (starting salaries and beyond for the first 5 years are higher, etc.). However, he also concluded that, other than this tier of schools, you're wasting your tuition money if you think, for example, that Small-Private-College is a better buy at $40k per year over, say, Fresno State or Salisbury. For that, there is no proof of support

[pantherLax]

However, he also concluded that, other than this tier of schools, you're wasting your tuition money if you think, for example, that Small-Private-College is a better buy at $40k per year over, say, Fresno State or Salisbury. For that, there is no proof of support

So the professor concluded that say if you go to a college like Vassar, Hamilton, or Union, you'll get the same level of education as Fresno or Salisbury? Or that the $40k Vassar isnt worth $40k but Fresno would be worth its price?

But then theres no proof for it right?

[LAXMomx3]

The study referred spoke only to earning power, and not related to how well one has been educated. And for what it's worth, another study suggests that the same five years will make your college major obsolete. As I said far earlier in this thread: Now adays a college degree is practically expected. Far more so than when I went to school back in the dark ages of the early 80's. :-) And earlier in this thread someone mentioned heart and determination as more important than academics. Not a chance. Heart and determination HELP but they won't make up for crap grades. And frankly, without good grades, it doesn't look like you have much heart OR determination to not have done better when you should have.

[Agent Orange]

Okay gang: I googled the words "Princeton University study earnings power school attended" and found the actual study papers. The name of the study is, "Estimating the Payoff to Attending A More Selective College: An Application of Selection on Observables and Unobservables" by Stacy Dale and Alan Krueger.

The conclusions I read were multiple, conflicting (a little), amusing, etc. The PDF can be downloaded at http://www.princeton.edu/pr/news/00/q1/0126-krueger.htm (link at the bottom of the page). It's interesting because it supports almost everything that's been said on this thread on both sides of the debate.