6 Stick Checks - Lessons Learned

[pboyd]

Rileylax and I worked our first game today using the new multiple stick check mechanic. The Head Coach is on the NCAA Rules Committee and told us that he put it in there and used the analogy that his father was a NYC cop and the only way you stop speeders is to be out there on patrol and issuing speeding tickets - until they start obeying the posted speed limit. He even asked us to do 6+ checks.
We thought we were all over it with our Pre-game and the first quarter ended with not one stick check. It turns out that we put all our money on checking sticks after the first goal - scoreless first quarter - no checks - lesson learned. Have a backup plan - I suggest checking sticks on the first sideline OOB call and the first time serving foul. Waiting for a TO sounds good - but once again no TO's - no checks similar to waiting for a goal.
Eventually we caught up and bagged 3 sticks - one short and two pinched - if you're playing with a crosse that is named after one of the elements of the atom - you may want to check it. We also had two backup officials rotating through on the sideline and there was a lot of action from the bench players to get their sticks checked.
I am also here to tell you that we didn't do any checks in less than 1 minute. Getting the ball - getting players from opposite teams - timesharing the ball - it can't be done in under 20 secs without good communication and advance planning - plus you then have to remember the plan in the heat of the action.
BTW: The new in the box signal and the new FO mechanic will take a little repetition - we started out well but I know I "regressed" several times during the course of the game to the old ways.

[3rdPersonPlural]

Are you suggesting that we (the ref team) agree on a random stick check on the two nearest boys to the first OOB? Sounds good. This'll get the ball rolling and make it clear right from the get go that every stick is open to random checks.

Thanks for the report.

[BlueJaysLaxFan]

At tonight's rules/ongoing training meeting, we being directed to make the NFHS stick checks random either after a goal is scored or before a FO. The sideline OOB suggestion was made but the the issue about time before a restart was brought up as a negative. Also we're still emphasizing attack/middie sticks. So the mechanic will still be one per half, full equipment check, but randomly after a goal or before a FO instead of between periods.

[Rileylax]

NFHS is a different animal. The standard procedure for most associations has been to do the checks after first and third periods. There is no requirement to do more and you will be opening a Pandora's box if you do them after a goal. That would also slow down the game and their periods are shorter than NCAA games.

Pboyd was only making the point that your pre-game plan/brief has to be flexible. These checks are stick checks ONLY...no equipment. You need to be equitable on checks after goals scored. In other words, do the check after A team scores and after the B team scores. Checking the same scoring team's players is not balanced and opens us up to being accused of favoritism. Checks after goals scored and prior to face-offs is a good initial plan but be sure to discuss your other options if the goal scoring is low.

[hask319]

Fellas:
Can we do a stick on the face off middies just before the initial game starting face off?

[LaxRef]

Fellas:
Can we do a stick on the face off middies just before the initial game starting face off?

No! The game hasn't started, so you can't penalize if the sticks are illegal.

[RockStar]

Fellas:
Can we do a stick on the face off middies just before the initial game starting face off?
Suggest doing a check right before the second face-off.

If you're looking to actually catch people, this even gives you a better chance since the guys' F/O sticks may have been warped by the first draw anyway.

[C.Montgomery]

No! The game hasn't started, so you can't penalize if the sticks are illegal.
Just because the first face off hasn't occured, why can't we penalize a team? I'd say that once we get to game time, whether or not the face off has occured, an illegal stick should be penalized. The question is when does the game start? I cannot find where that is defined and would lean toward once the lineup has broken and my twenty-second timer is going, the game has started.

[eme]

This issue came up a few years ago and then it was decided that, at most, a delay-of-game assessment was in order, giving the ball to the other team while allowing the guy with the illegal stick to be subbed for.

But why wade into this swamp? Just don't do it. We have to deal with enough stuff as it is.

Why not put this "clean up the sticks" issue back on the coaches. Second illegal stick on a team during a game would also entail the ejection of the Head Coach. That would clean things up in a hurry.

[NCLAXREF]

I would like to know if anyone thinks a sideline out of bounds is good place for a check with proper communication with your crew.

Thanks

BTW I agree with EME, 2 3-minute stick fouls on a team get the the head coach an early exit! :chair:

[shrekjr]

Why not put this "clean up the sticks" issue back on the coaches. Second illegal stick on a team during a game would also entail the ejection of the Head Coach. That would clean things up in a hurry.
I like the way you think!!! :worship:

I'm headed out in a few minutes to work my first games of the year and find out for myself just how much fun this new stick check thing really is. Double header Saturday and a single on Sunday. If you don't hear back from me by Monday, check the local ICU for the old out of shape fat man. Hey, it will be my first steps towards summer sleekness! :puke:

[kryptic]

Was this at the Navy Blue-White scrimmage a week ago?

[pboyd]

Affirmative.

[kryptic]

Thought so, one of you guys check my stick...but it was clean.

[AUSTINREF]

BTW I agree with EME, 2 3-minute stick fouls on a team get the the head coach an early exit! :chair:

We'd have had a coach out today then.

[3rdPersonPlural]

I think that EME's proposal that coaches be responsible for illegal sticks resonates.

"Coach, do you certify that your players are equipped to play by rule?"

"Yup."

If we find ONE illegal stick, not two, the coach is exposed as a liar and is ejected along with a 3 minute NR on his in home.

IOW, make compliance a coaches issue, not a ref's lottery.

Brilliant stuff!

[LaxRef]

I think that EME's proposal that coaches be responsible for illegal sticks resonates.

"Coach, do you certify that your players are equipped to play by rule?"

"Yup."

If we find ONE illegal stick, not two, the coach is exposed as a liar and is ejected along with a 3 minute NR on his in home.

IOW, make compliance a coaches issue, not a ref's lottery.

Brilliant stuff!

I do see one reason to make it two illegal sticks for an ejection and not one: the coach certifies that the equipment is legal before the game starts, not that it is legal and will not become illegal during play. It's possible that everything is legal before the game starts and then it rains and a pocket sags, or a head gets bent out of shape on a faceoff. But if you said you were going to eject the coach on the first illegal stick, I guess they'd have to build in a margin of error.

[3rdPersonPlural]

OK.

2.

But most responsible coaches I know check their kids' sticks before every game. And make sure that their protective equipment is up to snuff.

This is why we certify them.

On a rainy day when a poorly constructed pocket sags out of legal limits, we can blink. But, if that coach is being a PITA, we can flag.

I LOVE this idea.

[hask319]

I like the way EME is thinking. If the caoaches want the illeagal sticks out of the game then they themseves should take some responsibility for making it happen. Furthermore they all certify their respective teams prior to each contest. IMHO 6 stick random stick checks is allot and since they will all take some time to do i thought that I would ask if we could take one on the center middies just prior to the initail FO. I was hoping to get a yes answer because that would bang out one stick check with out disrupting the flow of the game. Lax Reff says no we cant do it so the answer is no we cant do it.
That being said I have to tell you guys that last season I took more than my share of illeagal sticks and we were only checking a min of 4 sticks per game.

[RockStar]

........ i thought that I would ask if we could take one on the center middies just prior to the initail FO. I was hoping to get a yes answer because that would bang out one stick check with out disrupting the flow of the game. ......

Just a thought, but even if you could do this, if you routinely did it, after a while, you would stop finding illegal sticks. (They'd still be there, but you'd never be finding them on this particular inspection.) Therefore, why would you bother?

Keep it random, guys, and don't be shy about checking poles either.

[LaxRef]

Just a thought, but even if you could do this, if you routinely did it, after a while, you would stop finding illegal sticks. (They'd still be there, but you'd never be finding them on this particular inspection.) Therefore, why would you bother?

Keep it random, guys, and don't be shy about checking poles either.

I don't know why people are having such a hard time with this concept: to be effective, the inspections must be random. If they can be predicted, they're completely ineffective at discouraging the illegal sticks.

I heard one guy saying, "We don't want to find illegal sticks, so let's do the checks when they know they're coming so we won't find any!" :dummy: That's like a police chief saying, "We don't want people to speed, so let's put up a sign before the speed trap so people slow down!" Sure, it will generate compliance in a very specific window, but it doesn't achieve the goal of motivating compliance in general.

[RockStar]

I'm with you, LaxRef.

If you don't want to find illegal sticks, just skip the checks and play the game. No point wasting everyone's time.

[shrekjr]

The game I was in this weekend, the players were told at the lineup what to do, or not do, after a goal and to be prepared to be asked for the stick. It was funny after each goal watching the players hold their stick out as the officials ran past to get a different stick.

[madbenlax]

I agree that the stick checks need to be random and at different times. The NCAA clinic emphasized the checks to be random and the officials need to get the bad sticks out of the game. The presenters also state we need to do the stick checks early and we don’t want to do stick checks in the last 8 minutes.

I wonder how long it will take players to figure out that you can use your bag stick in the fourth period.

We have to be willing to do stick checks in close games in the last minutes of the game. Officials need to be supported in this action if the emphasizes is truly to get the bad sticks out of the game. Will an illegal stick call have an impact on the game? Maybe. Will a bad stick that goes unchecked in a close game have an impact on a game?

[BlueJaysLaxFan]

It looks like the NCAA will have to shake this out as the season starts, and this will help the state HS associations figure out their best practices on this too. In this forum there are already descriptions of a variety of when to do stick checks for NFHS as well (before a face-off, after a goal, after OOB sideline vs. not after OOB sideline, inform the coaches and players during pregame vs. don't tell the coaches/players anything during pregame, 2 vs. 6 checks a game, don't check d-poles vs. check them, full equipment checks vs. stick checks only). We should post updates on this as our seasons start in the next month or so (assuming the -5F termperatures we have here go away!).

[laxfan25]

We have to be willing to do stick checks in close games in the last minutes of the game.
I agree with the thought that the officials shouldn't be doing random checks in the latter stages of the game. Remember, if a coach feels that a player is using a tricked stick, they still retain their one free check that they can call for if they think it is needed.
One major reason for this new mechanic is that the coaches didn't want to be seen to violate the unspoken code that calling for a stick check is unsporting - so just have the refs do tons instead. If they feel that strongly about a particular stick late in the game, it's up to them to step up and ask for it.

[madbenlax]

If they feel that strongly about a particular stick late in the game, it's up to them to step up and ask for it.

So the kid with bag stick scores three goals for his team to take the lead. The coach final asks for a stick check and gets a man advantage as time in the fourth period expires. You are correct let us leave it up to the coaches. They will clean it up.

[hask319]

One last thing on the inital face off. My intent was not to take one every game, so the randomness is still intact. However since we cant take a check there a FAGO middie can take advantage of the rule by using an illeagal stick to take the first face off with. Any thoughts?

[LaxRef]

One last thing on the inital face off. My intent was not to take one every game, so the randomness is still intact. However since we cant take a check there a FAGO middie can take advantage of the rule by using an illeagal stick to take the first face off with. Any thoughts?

If he's truly a FOGO, you're right. But the overall advantage in the grand scheme of the game for that one faceoff is minor, and if he happens to stay on the field and score or there's a quick timeout or injury, that stick could still be checked. And if the practice became common, the coach still has the right to ask for an equipment inspection.

[Rileylax]

Rockstar said, "If you don't want to find illegal sticks, just skip the checks and play the game. No point wasting everyone's time."

Say what???? Heck, with that line of thinking you might as well tell us that we don't need officials since we wouldn't find any penalties! :WTF:

[LaxRef]

Rockstar said, "If you don't want to find illegal sticks, just skip the checks and play the game. No point wasting everyone's time."

Say what???? Heck, with that line of thinking you might as well tell us that we don't need officials since we wouldn't find any penalties! :WTF:

His point was that there are some officials who have the attitude that they don't want to call any penalties, so they would prefer to conduct the equipment inspections in a way that never forces them to call a stick illegal. And if that's the attitude, then he's right: just skip the stick checks and speed up the game.

Fortunately, there are plenty of officials who are willing to make the call when a call is warranted. The context of Rockstar's comments are important here: he's on our side!

[inblack]

you know, for all this chatter, I still cant get my head around how many players must be cheating in every game to warrant such drastic measures.

How many illegal sticks are you guys finding in an average game?

Is there nothing you can do to hold the Coaching staff responsible for the behavior of the players, make them answer "why is it that you have so many runners out here with illegal sticks?" then punish or reprimand the coach/club for blatant disregard of the rules and the concept of fair play.

[shrekjr]

How many illegal sticks are you guys finding in an average game?We found 3 last week in a game...all defensive sticks, 2 d-poles and a short.

In three games (at least 18 stick checks), we haven't had to call off a goal yet. We've had several illegal sticks in pre-game checks, but not many during the games except for that one day.

[spenny]

i think its a bit steep to be throwing coaches out of the game for illegal sticks.
i consider myself a very attentive coach, but i rarely perform stick checks on game days. i'm more likely to do that at the end of the previous practice. theres too much going on on game day for me to check all of my players sticks. (i will if asked by a player, or if a player has been having problems with a stick) i dont condone cheating, and players caught in practice with illegal equipment pay the same price as if it happened in the game (1 figure eight sprint from midfield around both goals per 30 sec in penalty time) but to eject the coach, (and essentially that teams game plan) for sticks that can become illegal without intent on the players part? thats way too far

if you can demonstrate that a coach is knowingly and intentionally breaking the stick rules, fine. in fact that coach should be suspeneded for more than one game, but i dont know how youd prove that.

[spenny]

you know, for all this chatter, I still cant get my head around how many players must be cheating in every game to warrant such drastic measures.

a portion of that is heads that begin games just barely legal, and get worse from there.

amendment to my previous post: you can throw the book at any coach who has a cheat string on his team.

[inblack]

i think its a bit steep to be throwing coaches out of the game for illegal sticks.


I'm not suggesting that, well unless it OBVIOUS that he is party to the cheating, but a penalty or possibly a fine or some kind of league sanction for repeated offenses.

As for the 'cheat string' thing, would someone in the know be kind enough to email me a photo, or a description of this and how it works. I have never seen it. Would not even know what to look for.

Please don't post the replay to that question in here, email it to me.
I do not want to condone cheating or provide an instructional for the players. As Laxref knows I do a lot of work with our Varsity league up here and there is quite a bit of discussion going on with stick check changes for our 07 season (it's in the Fall up here)

[LaxRef]

i think its a bit steep to be throwing coaches out of the game for illegal sticks.
i consider myself a very attentive coach, but i rarely perform stick checks on game days. i'm more likely to do that at the end of the previous practice. theres too much going on on game day for me to check all of my players sticks. (i will if asked by a player, or if a player has been having problems with a stick) i dont condone cheating, and players caught in practice with illegal equipment pay the same price as if it happened in the game (1 figure eight sprint from midfield around both goals per 30 sec in penalty time) but to eject the coach, (and essentially that teams game plan) for sticks that can become illegal without intent on the players part? thats way too far

if you can demonstrate that a coach is knowingly and intentionally breaking the stick rules, fine. in fact that coach should be suspeneded for more than one game, but i dont know how youd prove that.

How many coaches do you think would turn their heads at illegal sticks if they started getting ejected from games? I really like the idea of ejecting the coach on the second illegal stick found, at the very least at the NCAA level. The coach would make it really clear to the players that their sticks had better be legal.

[eme]

1. Half of a team's games are away. A long bus ride.Not that hard to send the old ball and tape measure up and down the aisle to check sticks.
2. Half of the team's games are home. Lots of sitting around the locker room. Plenty of time to send the ball and tape measure around the room while listening for the 10th time what your responsibilities are in the zone defense package..

Coaches want the illegal sticks out of the game yet they want the refs to do it. They should share the responsibility. Second illegal stick on a team during a game means an ejection for the head coach.

[Rileylax]

concur. They want us to do their dirty work because they want to win and look like heroes. The 2nd illegal stick/eject the coach idea would work otherwise we'll become like the girls' game and have them all line up before the game for stick checks!

[MElaxRef]

As for the 'cheat string' thing, would someone in the know be kind enough to email me a photo, or a description of this and how it works. I have never seen it. Would not even know what to look for.

One way to create a 'cheat string' is as follows: Replace one of the knots on the string that secures the webbing to the back of the throat of the crosse with a spring loaded jam nut (like the ones on drawstrings on many coats). Then the string can be quickly shortened or lengthened.

You can achieve the same effect with some types of knots that slip more easily in one direction than the other (tautline hitch comes to mind). If the knot is tied so that it slips more easily in the direction to tighten the pocket, then the player can tighten the pocket with a simple tug, but may need two hands (at the bench) to loosen the pocket.

[TheKOB]

'scuse me guys.....but isn't it your JOB to enforce the rules?!? Isn't that what your PAID to do? I don't think lining everyone up and doing stick checks at the begining is a bad idea at all...it wouldn't disrupt the flow of the game nearly as much as these random stick checks do....

Besides, isn't penalty time enough? Ya'll are sounding a bit vindictive and full of yourselves...

[RockStar]

...........Besides, isn't penalty time enough? Ya'll are sounding a bit vindictive and full of yourselves...

Tell 'em!

Refs - The consequences of cheating are already defined, and what skin is it off your nose if there's a few more illegal sticks?

[LaxRef]

'scuse me guys.....but isn't it your JOB to enforce the rules?!? Isn't that what your PAID to do? I don't think lining everyone up and doing stick checks at the begining is a bad idea at all...it wouldn't disrupt the flow of the game nearly as much as these random stick checks do....

Besides, isn't penalty time enough? Ya'll are sounding a bit vindictive and full of yourselves...

You didn't quote a post, so I have no idea what you're responding to.

I personally have no problem checking sticks and assessing the appropriate penalty. But the rules committee has stated that they want the illegal sticks out of the game, and one way to do that is make the coaches actually comply with the rules and mean it when they certify that they have personally inspected all of the equipment and that it is all legal. The little charade we go through at the beginning of each game is laughable; I'd be surprised if 10% of the coaches actually meant it when they certify that their players have legal gear. By ejecting the coach for the second 3:00 stick penalty, you might actually get them to start checking this stuff. Oh, and while it's true we're paid to enforce the rules, the coach is paid to inspect all of his players' equipment: why aren't you railing against the coaches for not doing the job they're paid to do?

I'd be all for checking all of the sticks before the game if I thought it was the answer. But what's to stop the players from loosening up their pockets after the inspection, or hiding illegal sticks until after the inspection? Are we supposed to dig through every bag, search the bus, and inspect players' car trunks to make sure we're checking every stick? Or do we take a page from fencing and put control marks on each stick and then penalize if a crosse doesn't have the right colored tag on it?

[TheKOB]

You didn't quote a post, so I have no idea what you're responding to.

I personally have no problem checking sticks and assessing the appropriate penalty. But the rules committee has stated that they want the illegal sticks out of the game, and one way to do that is make the coaches actually comply with the rules and mean it when they certify that they have personally inspected all of the equipment and that it is all legal. The little charade we go through at the beginning of each game is laughable; I'd be surprised if 10% of the coaches actually meant it when they certify that their players have legal gear. By ejecting the coach for the second 3:00 stick penalty, you might actually get them to start checking this stuff. Oh, and while it's true we're paid to enforce the rules, the coach is paid to inspect all of his players' equipment: why aren't you railing against the coaches for not doing the job they're paid to do?

I'd be all for checking all of the sticks before the game if I thought it was the answer. But what's to stop the players from loosening up their pockets after the inspection, or hiding illegal sticks until after the inspection? Are we supposed to dig through every bag, search the bus, and inspect players' car trunks to make sure we're checking every stick? Or do we take a page from fencing and put control marks on each stick and then penalize if a crosse doesn't have the right colored tag on it?

I don't know if you're a coach as well, but you don't seem to have a good understanding of what we do. Making sure a player's stick is legal isn't nearly as important as building the team up to compete and building the individuals up as a person and....oh yeah...improving their skills in the sport of lacrosse.

As you already pointed out there isn't going to be a catch-all, but where your argument faulters is that you seem to assume that all players and coaches are out to dodge the rules whenever possible in their religious dedication to get another one in the W column. I'd suggest if that's truely what you think of the players and coaches of this sport, to find another place to volunteer your time....maybe fencing would benefit more from your attention.

As for the certification, it is a charade, but who's to blame, the NCAA for making everyone go through the motions? Do you honestly think I have the time to make sure everyone has a mouth guard, it's not clipped, their chin strap is buckled, their shoes are tied properly, their sticks are legal (and don't become illegal during play, which is how most sticks become illegal btw) their spikes are 1/2" and not 3/4", etc. I'm exausted just typing all that...no way I'd have the time to do all that for all 50 of my players on a game day unless it's a night game and I have 'em show up at noon. Basically, you're in a position to change it while I as a coach am not. You're taking part in this "charade" as well....except you could do something about it. Don't blame me for the way the NCAA does things. I've got a lot of problems with the NCAA, and lacrosse rules and regs don't even begin to scratch the surface. I believe someone (pretty sure it was Spenny) over at laxpower had the sig "Myles Brand is to college athletics what King Herod was to babysitting".

Basically, I'm making the point that checking all the sticks will keep the majority of the sticks that are illegal (believe it or not, sticks do become illegal by themselves through use...some are actually come from the store illegal...are illegal foils sold in fencing?...never mind, don't answer that, I wouldn't have a clue what you'd be talking about) out of the game. then maybe you could suspend a player found with an illegal stick (drawstring, etc) for the rest of the match...since IN THAT CASE it would definitely be catching a cheater with ill intentions and not some hapless lacrosse player who didn't have a tape measuer handy and thus ensued the wrath of LAXREF :devil: MUAHAHAHA!

[LaxRef]

I don't know if you're a coach as well, but you don't seem to have a good understanding of what we do. Making sure a player's stick is legal isn't nearly as important as building the team up to compete and building the individuals up as a person and....oh yeah...improving their skills in the sport of lacrosse.

I agree it's not the most important thing you do, but it is in the rules, and checking your players' equipment is part of your job. It's hypocritical to complain about officials not doing the job they get paid to do if you aren't doing the job you're being paid to do, and then lying to the officials about it.

And remember that the coaches write the rules, so they coaches themselves are the ones who decided that the head coach is responsible for certifying that the team has legal equipment.

As you already pointed out there isn't going to be a catch-all, but where your argument faulters is that you seem to assume that all players and coaches are out to dodge the rules whenever possible in their religious dedication to get another one in the W column.

I assume no such thing. What I do assume is that there are some players and coaches who will do anything they can to get an edge. Do you think all this talk about drawstrings is hypothetical? Do you not see all of the people posting on TLF about how "it's not cheating if you don't get caught?"

And when some people cheat and don't get caught, other people get to the point where they say, "Geez, if they're doing it and we want to have a chance, we need to do that, too!" And it spirals out of control.

[3rdPersonPlural]

A coach does not have to check every stick. Allz he has to say is that if a ref assesses a visit to the box for a pinched head or a short shaft, the player so assessed will run hills until he pukes at the next practice.

I view your contention that deep pockets usually start the game as legal pockets with a skeptically raised eyebrow. Nylon does not relax or contract due to water and a stable pocket will hold it's dimensions for several seasons. If your players are convinced that their games will suffer unless they run pockets so deep and unstable that one shift on the field will change the pocket's dynamic enough to make it illegal, you have a problem.

[TheKOB]

I agree it's not the most important thing you do, but it is in the rules, and checking your players' equipment is part of your job. It's hypocritical to complain about officials not doing the job they get paid to do if you aren't doing the job you're being paid to do, and then lying to the officials about it.

A ref's job is to ensure that the rules are followed, correct? Besides, what would you do if a coach says no to certification? Would you then check the equipment? NO...you'd award a forfiet. The certification does little more than allow the coach time to ask questions. It's your job to enforce the rules during, it's the coach's job to coach and to try and win games.

Have you ever coached lacrosse? Reffing for me was an eye opening experience, but you seem to assume an aweful lot about the coaching profession...


I assume no such thing. What I do assume is that there are some players and coaches who will do anything they can to get an edge.

of course there will be those kinds of people, but they're few and far between. I don't see how that meshes with your next statement or any of the prior ones...

Do you think all this talk about drawstrings is hypothetical? Do you not see all of the people posting on TLF about how "it's not cheating if you don't get caught?"

And when some people cheat and don't get caught, other people get to the point where they say, "Geez, if they're doing it and we want to have a chance, we need to do that, too!" And it spirals out of control.

Seems to me that you get irritated by people that dare break the rules knowingly or unknowingly. Seems like reffing might not be a good career choice.

[TheKOB]

I view your contention that deep pockets usually start the game as legal pockets with a skeptically raised eyebrow. Nylon does not relax or contract due to water and a stable pocket will hold it's dimensions for several seasons. If your players are convinced that their games will suffer unless they run pockets so deep and unstable that one shift on the field will change the pocket's dynamic enough to make it illegal, you have a problem.

Pockets react to water...that's one way to break in a pocket. A pocket will only hold it's dimensions for several seasons if it's sitting in a closet. The only pocket that MIGHT do that is brine's illfated fresh mesh, which is pretty much braided gimp (that plastic stuff used to make useless lanyards from summer camp...never could figure out how to do that circle weave...). Of course, if it doesn't break in it isn't much use.

As for your last comment, you've got to be kidding. What's the leeway on legality? With companies selling barely legal (and in some instances illegal) sticks how are pockets any different? A deeper pocket gives more of an advantage than a shallower one, plain and simple. To get the best advantage, you want it as deep as possible within the rules. If it didn't matter, why is everyone doing it? Seems like the lacrosse community as a whole has the problem, not just my team....

[3rdPersonPlural]

Pockets react to water...that's one way to break in a pocket.

Not mesh. Polyvinyl coated nylon is impervious to water.

A pocket will only hold it's dimensions for several seasons if it's sitting in a closet.

I played with the same stick for 6 years withour ever adjusting it, then closeted it for 15 years, then used it for some Supermasters games.

Then the leather top lace broke.

Shoddy construction, I tell ya. I wrote to Brine to complain.

However, if your team is having problems fielding pockets that are 'legal when they leave the locker room' and regularly go illegal before the inspections take place, either you are getting snowed (unlikely) or you are commiting perjury when you certify your team.

As for your last comment, you've got to be kidding. A deeper pocket gives more of an advantage than a shallower one, plain and simple. To get the best advantage, you want it as deep as possible within the rules.

Total Rubbish. The geometric difference between a solidly legal stick and a barely illegal stick is negligible, and neither you nor I nor anyone you could name could tell the difference in a blind catch and throw test.

However, an illegal stick enables considerably more lateral carry of the ball within the confines of a pocket, so a defender has to clobber the dickens out of a ball carrier to dislodge the ball. This is dangerous. Danger makes insurance companies nervous and PI attorneys salivate and if Insurance guys lose their nerve first, we lose our game. We.....LOSE..... our game! Follow the money, my friend.

If it didn't matter, why is everyone doing it? Seems like the lacrosse community as a whole has the problem, not just my team....

Yup. That's why the rule applies to the lacrosse community as a whole, and not just your team. If your team is scrupulously legal, and the other guys aren't, call for stick checks and win the game with a dozen minutes of man up. Play the game that's written, rather than objecting.

[hask319]

Fellas: As an ex player an ex coach and now an official. I can tell you first hand that there is absolutely no good reason to ever see sticks in the game that do not conform to the rules. In my expirience as a player I didnot use a nonconforming stick so I never took a penulty. As a coach I personally checked all my players sticks periodically. I also showed my players the mechanics of how to check there own sticks. As a coach my players knew that if I ever found them with a non conforming stick that there game time would be limited and they were going to run till they puked in practice. I made this crystal clear at our first team meeting every year and thankfully we never had a prob. By the way it took me less than 30 min to check the whole team gloves and sticks and teach how perform there own stick checks.
That being said... Last season roughly 20% of the sticks I checked as an official did not conform. Imho that is high and I agree with how the rules commitee has decided to adress the issue.
I for one never viewed the team certification as a "chirade". And I am willing to bet that any Athletic director does not view it as a chirade either. My point here is that if we want the illegle sticks out of the game then its going to take an effort from the top down to make it happen. In my oppinion the coaches should be the top of the food chain. If coaches do not want this as part of there job description I think it would be in the best interest of the game to let the athletic directors certify there teams or atleast make them aware that a team certification takes place before each contest.

[LaxRef]

I for one never viewed the team certification as a "chirade". And I am willing to bet that any Athletic director does not view it as a chirade either.

I do not think it should be a charade, but I think in many cases it is. I've had coaches respond with "I don't know," and one prominent local coach wanted to hire an official to come check his team before the state playoffs because he wanted to make sure his team's sticks were legal and he'd never done a stick check himself!

Plus, I know that a lot of the coaches are lying when they say their team is legally equipped by rule because I find players during the game who are not legally equipped by rule.

I stand by my assessment that KOB is being a hypocrite when he says the officials should shut up and do the job they are paid to do when the rules very clearly state that part of a coach's job is to inspect the equipment, and he doesn't seem to care that the coaches aren't doing the job they are paid to do.

Bottom line on stick checks: if the player thinks being 1/4 inch under the limit doesn't provide an advantage, then there should be no problem with being 1/4 inch over the limit either, in which case he's never going to fail a stick check. And if being 1/4 inch under the limit does provide an advantage, then he should be penalized for violating the rules and gaining an unfair advantage.

[TheKOB]

Not mesh. Polyvinyl coated nylon is impervious to water.

I'm not sure if you've ever used mesh while it was wet, but I'd suggest going over to the stringing forum and asking anyone that question and you'll find out you're mistaken....

I played with the same stick for 6 years withour ever adjusting it, then closeted it for 15 years, then used it for some Supermasters games.

Then the leather top lace broke.

Shoddy construction, I tell ya. I wrote to Brine to complain..

You just answered your own question. They just plain don't build 'em like they used to... Betcha my first head (STX Turbo) would still be legal. My Evo Pro that I got last year and I played with? Illegal.... Only in a referee's dream do all the lacrosse players do their own stick checks...in a land flowing with black and white striped milk and honey.

However, if your team is having problems fielding pockets that are 'legal when they leave the locker room' and regularly go illegal before the inspections take place, either you are getting snowed (unlikely) or you are commiting perjury when you certify your team..

You've been watching too many episodes of "law and order". One was illegal when the player got it (Evo Pro, it's an epidemic, ask any lax rat on these forums) whle the other pocket bagged out (ie stretched so that it became illegal). Neither had their stick checked because neither thought about it...and neither did I. Does that make us a little ignorant? yeah...I never said we shouldn't have been penalized. Does that make us criminals hanging out in a dark alley trying to figure out new ways to cheat? No, absolutely not.



Total Rubbish. The geometric difference between a solidly legal stick and a barely illegal stick is negligible, and neither you nor I nor anyone you could name could tell the difference in a blind catch and throw test.

I'm no talking about barely illegal heads...if people are going to cheat intentionally they won't half *** it, they'll go all out. The barely illegal stuff is the stuff that the user is unaware of because it becomes illegal. Think of the stress that's put on a lacrosse head during a game between ground ball scrums, getting checked while shooting, faceoffs, etc. Also consider that the days of the SAMII and Excaliber are over (sadly) and the advantage of a barely legal head is not lost on the manufacturers. The resulting head doesn't take a lot of time to become illegal in some cases, especially when compared to the old school heads. Basically, it takes a lot more for a head that's 6.5" exactly to go under 6.5" than one that's 7" wide.


Play the game that's written, rather than objecting.
If everyone thought that way then we'd still be killing each other on a field miles long that spanned field, stream and woods. If there's no need for discussion, then why is there a rules discussion forum?!?

[TheKOB]

I do not think it should be a charade, but I think in many cases it is. I've had coaches respond with "I don't know," and one prominent local coach wanted to hire an official to come check his team before the state playoffs because he wanted to make sure his team's sticks were legal and he'd never done a stick check himself!

If you're participating in this charade and you know that there are probably illegal sticks on the field, then why certify? Ask a stupid question and get a stupid answer. You don't see players (intellegant ones at least) saying all refs are stupid because one ref missed a call. I had a bad ref and a few bad calls this past weekend. I don't call all refs idiots, I give them the benefit of the doubt.

Plus, I know that a lot of the coaches are lying when they say their team is legally equipped by rule because I find players during the game who are not legally equipped by rule.

Can you get it through your head that this certification's only purpose is to pretty much enable the refs to call fouls? You take it as an opening for a personal crusade to expose all coaches and players as liars. What do you do with the coaches who say "no"?

I stand by my assessment that KOB is being a hypocrite when he says the officials should shut up and do the job they are paid to do when the rules very clearly state that part of a coach's job is to inspect the equipment, and he doesn't seem to care that the coaches aren't doing the job they are paid to do.

Wow....I'm amazed at your misquotation of me and your name-calling. If you don't like discussing rules and don't think you could ever be wrong, then you're in the wrong place. It may be part of a coaches job (hey...aren't jobs supposed to be paid? Let me know when I can get one of those paying gigs) but it's part of the official's job. You're trying to put all of the responsibility on the coach. It's HIS job to coach his team. It's the REF's job to enforce the rules. Have you EVER even played this sport?

Bottom line on stick checks: if the player thinks being 1/4 inch under the limit doesn't provide an advantage, then there should be no problem with being 1/4 inch over the limit either, in which case he's never going to fail a stick check. And if being 1/4 inch under the limit does provide an advantage, then he should be penalized for violating the rules and gaining an unfair advantage.

It does provide and advantage and he should be penalized....duh. Calling coaches liars etc does nothing for your credibility and honestly smacks of disrespect and a ludicrious amount of pompusness. How's the view up there from On High? I'm amazed that you can even step on the field with us filthy peasents without taking a shower during dead balls. How does you calling coaches liars help anyone? How does you calling me names help this discussion?

Get over yourself man.

[RockStar]

.........so a defender has to clobber the dickens out of a ball carrier to dislodge the ball.........
So we have dodges and goals plus huge hits versus the alternative of lots of scrumming for loose balls resulting from lighter slap checks.....Meh, dangerous or not, the deep pockets may actually make for a more entertaining spectator sport.

[3rdPersonPlural]

I'm not sure if you've ever used mesh while it was wet, but I'd suggest going over to the stringing forum and asking anyone that question and you'll find out you're mistaken....

I played 3 seasons in New England with a mesh pocket. It is not the nylon fibers that strech as Nylon does not absorb water, and the weave of the mesh fabric is so tight that surface tension prevents water from penetrating (which is why it doesn't swell and appear to shrink). If there is any deformation, it is the sidewall lacing that is relaxing and these days most stringers use a nylon string for that, so the problem is as old as your (and my) lax career and probably as passe :laugh:



Also consider that the days of the SAMII and Excaliber are over (sadly) and the advantage of a barely legal head is not lost on the manufacturers. The resulting head doesn't take a lot of time to become illegal in some cases, especially when compared to the old school heads. Basically, it takes a lot more for a head that's 6.5" exactly to go under 6.5" than one that's 7" wide.

We've been talking past one another. I'm discussing pockets and you're discussing heads. Sorry. I agree that a head that's exactly 6.5 and then subjected to a player can be expected to return with different tolerances. I would think that a manufacturer would promote a 6.75 stick as one that can take a lickin' and keep on being legal, but considering the razor thin performance differences between heads these days, that would probably be a market disaster.

However, heads aren't SUPPOSED to change dimensions when played with. If one gets a reputation of not standing up to the rigors of play, it's sales will suffer. Or SHOULD suffer, if this crackdown succeeds as planned.


If everyone thought that way then we'd still be killing each other on a field miles long that spanned field, stream and woods. If there's no need for discussion, then why is there a rules discussion forum?!?

OK. Light a candle. What do YOU propose?

[stinisonfire]

At our game on Saturday, I was checked right after a goal on my way to take the faceoff. Next goal, same thing, haha. I told the ref (same one who checked me about 5 mins before) that he could check me again if he wished.

Then he told me to make sure my middle stays legal, to which I told him "I'd love to, but I keep getting jammed, so I'm doing my best".

[TheKOB]

OK. Light a candle. What do YOU propose?

1) go back to the triangular shaped heads rather than keyhole.
2) no offset
3) take a note out of the girl's rulebooks and check all the sticks before a game, and keep the other stick checks. I'd do away with the lengthy stick checks that just leave everyone standing around and make the refs feel like they're in the spotlight out there all alone in the middle of the field. My prediction is that refs are going to start doing what they already did in our fourth game of the year....just wait for the next faceoff and check the fogo's stick (which is stupid because the face off guy is most likely to have an illegal stick because of all the stress and the least likely to have it be because of some usable form of intentional cheating....who wants to play with an S shaped head?). In addition to the checks at the begining of the game, keep the checks at the end of each quarter and throw in a few random ones, preferably check the stick of the goal scorer immediately after he scores (aka ask him for his stick so fast that he just wants to start dropping it to the ground on the follow through...).

Overall, lack of a pinch and no offset=easier for the d, which mens (hopfully) that at the higher levels (where calls aren't made because the players are more skilled...which leaves me scratching my head) they can call a tighter game.

[3rdPersonPlural]

I say candle and KOB comes back with a blast furnace.

I agree wholeheartely about the triangular heads. That's the quickest way to the stated goal. 7 inch width is fine too.

I dunno about offset, though. I don't think that a few degrees helps anyone but the guy writing the marketing text, but I'm only going on personal observations made under very docile circumstances. I'll take your word for it.

I agree that a pregame thorough stick check session is a great idea. This will weed out all of the pinched heads and short shafts.

A pocket check takes 5 seconds. Score, drop. and a ref picks up your stick while you celebrate. No need for structural checks as they've all been done. If a player pulls a cheater stick out of a duffel bag, the opposing coach will have to catch it

Ooh! Ooh! Each ref has a little ink stamp of a bunny or something unique and he stamps each stick in the pregame. Hit the ball stop, as that goes untouched all game.....

After a goal, check 2 sticks, the dropped scorer's stick and one other for pocket and stamp. No stamp, and the player sits for 3 . Legal pocket or no.

If you use multiple sticks, bring an armload to the pregame check for stamps, that's all.

You bring out the best in me, KOB.

[RockStar]

..........
I dunno about offset, though. I don't think that a few degrees helps anyone .........

The benefit is actually pretty big:

We're clear that a pocket that's illegal by 1/2" is a benefit, right? I mean this is a no brainer.

Well, the barely legal pocket on the 1/2" offset stick holds just like a straight stick with illegal pocket, and mitigates any negative effects on shot speed owing to deep pocket.

[LaxRef]

Ooh! Ooh! Each ref has a little ink stamp of a bunny or something unique and he stamps each stick in the pregame. Hit the ball stop, as that goes untouched all game.....

That's what we do in fencing. But it might be tricky to do in lacrosse.

After a goal, check 2 sticks, the dropped scorer's stick and one other for pocket and stamp. No stamp, and the player sits for 3 . Legal pocket or no.

How about an expulsion, since they're obviously intending to cheat in that situation.

[laxfan25]

Man, I think we all need to step back and chill a bit! I don't think coaches are liars, just because they certify a team as being legal and haven't checked each one of their players. Let's get back to the basics, both of our groups - coaches and officials - are there for the KIDS - to help them play and enjoy this great game!

An interesting story about the new stick checks; I heard that in this season's game between Penn State and Johns Hopkins - there were FOUR illegal stick penalties - each of which resulted in goals being taken off the board. So it would appear that the reason for putting in the new mechanic this year was sound, and that the message is being delivered loud and clear. I can't imagine any coach being happy about having goals taken off the board like that!

[LaxRef]

Man, I think we all need to step back and chill a bit! I don't think coaches are liars, just because they certify a team as being legal and haven't checked each one of their players.

I think by definition that is a lie, so by definition a coach who does that is a liar. He may have excuses for why he's lying, but he can't say he's not a liar in this situation. It's simple:

"Coach, do you certify that all of your players are legally equipped by rule?"

"Yes"

If the players are not legally equipped by rule, that's a lie. Now, make excuses if you want, but you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. (I'm probably not technically old enough to use that expression, but I'm going to anyway.)

[laxfan25]

Not necessarily. If you follow the news of late, you would realize that the coach has many other things on his mind, offensive sets, defensive rides, the global war on terrorism. It's not a lie, he simply forgot who he spoke to and when. Hey, it seems to work for Scooter!

[3rdPersonPlural]

LR is getting at a very good point. A certification is an assurance not much different than a guarantee, and if the coach assumes legal liability for misfortunes arising from improperly equipped players (that's what the certification is ensuring), he is also assuming responsibility for illegally equipped players.

If we want coaches to share the burden of keeping sticks legal, adding an illegal procedure on the coach to the first illegal stick, an USC to the second and subsequent violations will certainly get their attention.

2 men down is a real attention getter, so the next time that the coach certifies, he'll be confident that the assurance is more than just words.

25, it's no secret that I'm a player's ref. However, getting legal and staying legal is a life lesson that has considerable value. That being illegal hurts more than just you is another good lesson. If 'what can I get away with' is replaced in the player's heads with 'I'm relaxin' because I'm clean and I know it', that is an accomplishment.

[RockStar]

........
"Coach, do you certify that all of your players are legally equipped by rule?"

"Yes"..........

Not a lie, just depends on how you define "is" :grin:

[laxfan25]

25, it's no secret that I'm a player's ref. However, getting legal and staying legal is a life lesson that has considerable value. That being illegal hurts more than just you is another good lesson. If 'what can I get away with' is replaced in the player's heads with 'I'm relaxin' because I'm clean and I know it', that is an accomplishment.
I just think you're dumping on the coach too much. We already have a major tool of enforcement with a 3 min. NR AND possibly goals being taken back - that is certainly going to encourage the coach to get the kids to not play fast and loose with the law. It hasn't been a big issue for me all these many years, and I want to maintain the partnership aspect of game management.
Coming into a certification with an attitude that "you're a lyin' SOB" doesn't lend itself to a spirit of cooperation. I, for one, am not in favor of tacking on bench penalties in addition to the aforementioned death penalty. JMHO.

[3rdPersonPlural]

25, I am proposing that the rules committee dump on the coach. If we are obliged by the rule book to ding the coach for illegal equipment, we become partners with the coach in ensuring that the kids are equipped illegally.

Also, a penalty on the coach in this case is just a penalty on the in home. The coach does not have to sit down and shut up. More's the pity.

[spenny]

then why not penalize the coach when a player slashes?

we simply dont have that level of control over our players.
i dont condone cheating in any way shape or form, but ive had illegal sticks called on my players, and i usually have less than 20 to deal with. i cant imagine trying to check sticks for an entire college team every day

[CardinalPuff]

Also, a penalty on the coach in this case is just a penalty on the in home. The coach does not have to sit down and shut up. More's the pity.
if the penalty is assessed as an USC and the coach is tossed for 2 USCs there are some coaches that would be well advised to take the sit down and shut up approach.....

[LaxRef]

then why not penalize the coach when a player slashes?

Because the coach didn't certify at the beginning of the game that none of his players would commit a slash, but he did tell you that he inspected all of the gear and that the gear is all legal.

[Lax-Umpire]

OK a late comment here -- Womans's side check every stick before every game and also permit random stick checks during the game. Very unlikely that anyone will be using a ilegal stick. Why not adopt this for the mens side.

Ounce of prevention > pound of cure

[REFNCOACHK]

I'm also an ex-player and current coach and official. At my opening game I asked for 7 stick checks. All were illegal in my opinion, but the refs considered a stick that held a ball in it to 80 degrees as legal. The other 6 served 1 minute penalties. A few wiped out goals. I think the new high school rules call for 3 minute penalty if used to score a goal and caught, deep pocket or altered makes no difference. My position is this: I'll use stick checks as when I need time outs or when I suspect an illegal stick. Some are so obvious it's laughable. Last night I called for a stick check on the same player 4 times...he served 3 separate 1 minute penalties. If there are no illegal sticks on the other team, why would they take offense? I ended each half with all my time outs. Even if I run out of time outs, I'll still ask for one in games like these where they're abundant. by rule if illegal, no penalty on me...if legal illegal procedure on me and we lose possession or serve 30 seconds technical. the other teams and coaches moan when I ask, but I wouldn't have to if their players followed the rules.

[TheKOB]

I think by definition that is a lie, so by definition a coach who does that is a liar. He may have excuses for why he's lying, but he can't say he's not a liar in this situation. It's simple:

"Coach, do you certify that all of your players are legally equipped by rule?"

"Yes"

If the players are not legally equipped by rule, that's a lie. Now, make excuses if you want, but you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. (I'm probably not technically old enough to use that expression, but I'm going to anyway.)

So here's the problem. If you'll call me a liar if one of my player's sticks becomes illegal during a game (and let's face it, the more I read your posts the less and less I respect or even care about your opinion of me) then why don't I just answer "no" or request that YOU do your job and check all my players equipment and sticks? I remember reading somewhere that you'd then slap me with a delay of game. It would be especially hard for ANY stick checks to be done especially since our refs seem to get there just before the game and leave right after (as in blowing the game dead as they're running to their cars).

To use another expression (maybe not as colorful as sows ear, but it fits better) a coach is stuck between a rock and a hard place (only if you're reffing a game).

If you want to become a better ref, I'd suggest taking your nose out of your rulebook and maybe try coaching for a change. You don't seem to get much enjoyment out of the game, and if there's something that can put a smile on an old sourpuss's face better, it's 8 helmets with legs going for a gb.

[TheKOB]

I'm also an ex-player and current coach and official. At my opening game I asked for 7 stick checks. All were illegal in my opinion, but the refs considered a stick that held a ball in it to 80 degrees as legal. The other 6 served 1 minute penalties. A few wiped out goals. I think the new high school rules call for 3 minute penalty if used to score a goal and caught, deep pocket or altered makes no difference. My position is this: I'll use stick checks as when I need time outs or when I suspect an illegal stick. Some are so obvious it's laughable. Last night I called for a stick check on the same player 4 times...he served 3 separate 1 minute penalties. If there are no illegal sticks on the other team, why would they take offense? I ended each half with all my time outs. Even if I run out of time outs, I'll still ask for one in games like these where they're abundant. by rule if illegal, no penalty on me...if legal illegal procedure on me and we lose possession or serve 30 seconds technical. the other teams and coaches moan when I ask, but I wouldn't have to if their players followed the rules.

Throw this candle out there....when a pocket is illegal and can apparently be fixed, the stick has to be approved by the ref to reenter the game, at a dead ball or quarter, in addition to any stick checks that were going to happen anyways, since you can't asses a penalty since the stick wasn't in play. This should happen at the ref's convienence and should only take a second since they're checking to see if the in question part is fixed.

[LaxRef]

Throw this candle out there....when a pocket is illegal and can apparently be fixed, the stick has to be approved by the ref to reenter the game, at a dead ball or quarter, in addition to any stick checks that were going to happen anyways, since you can't asses a penalty since the stick wasn't in play. This should happen at the ref's convienence and should only take a second since they're checking to see if the in question part is fixed.


There is no rule that the stick has to be inspected to return, only that it be adjusted for a deep pocket. I think that should be the rule—requiring it to be inspected—but it's not.

And a stick doesn't need to be in the game to be inspected.

[LaxRef]

So here's the problem. If you'll call me a liar if one of my player's sticks becomes illegal during a game

I won't call you that, but I might think it.

why don't I just answer "no" or request that YOU do your job and check all my players equipment and sticks? I remember reading somewhere that you'd then slap me with a delay of game.

If you don't answer "Yes," we don't play the game.

If you want to become a better ref, I'd suggest taking your nose out of your rulebook and maybe try coaching for a change. You don't seem to get much enjoyment out of the game, and if there's something that can put a smile on an old sourpuss's face better, it's 8 helmets with legs going for a gb.

You forget that I have tried coaching.

[TheKOB]

Inspected? No.
Incur a penalty? Yeah. That's what I was referring to.

[TheKOB]

I won't call you that, but I might think it.



If you don't answer "Yes," we don't play the game.



You forget that I have tried coaching.


1) Grow up.
2) You made my point
3) Lacrosse?

[laxfan25]

In our game last night, we were discussing when to do our stick checks; 2nd faceoff, after the second goals by each team, timeouts, etc.
On the timeout one, my feeling is that you want to grab sticks as they head to the timeout. One of my go-workers said No, take them as they come back on the field. We tried it that way a couple of times, and I feel it is more disruptive that way than doing it while the teams are congregated together. On the third time out we did it my way, and I felt it was much smoother. Anyone have thoughts on timeout stick checks and when they should be done?
Only one illegal stick, a deep pocket on the D man that we checked with the goal scorer. It was kind of funny though. There was plenty of daylight showing above the ball, but the owner said "I was told that if you could put a dime on top of the ball and not see daylight you were OK." I have to admit I've never heard that one before! The team came out of the Minnesota area - is that something you do in the great white North?

[LaxRef]

In our game last night, we were discussing when to do our stick checks; 2nd faceoff, after the second goals by each team, timeouts, etc.
On the timeout one, my feeling is that you want to grab sticks as they head to the timeout. One of my go-workers said No, take them as they come back on the field.

That is just plain wrong. The whole point is to NOT interrupt the flow of the game; that's why you do it when the timeout is called. And if the policy was to do it after the timeout, players would just learn to stash their illegal sticks at each timeout.


We tried it that way a couple of times, and I feel it is more disruptive that way than doing it while the teams are congregated together. On the third time out we did it my way, and I felt it was much smoother. Anyone have thoughts on timeout stick checks and when they should be done?

Absolutely when they go into timeout. This is probably the least disruptive time we can do them, and it generally gives us time to check the sticks and report penalties, if any. After goal checks don't slow the game down much, either, unless of course there's a penalty.


Only one illegal stick, a deep pocket on the D man that we checked with the goal scorer. It was kind of funny though. There was plenty of daylight showing above the ball, but the owner said "I was told that if you could put a dime on top of the ball and not see daylight you were OK." I have to admit I've never heard that one before! The team came out of the Minnesota area - is that something you do in the great white North?

I think he meant to say, "I scored a dime bag, used it, and then tried to think of an excuse to use if I got busted for my deep pocket."

Two games for me so far. The first game, we had 4 out of 12 sticks illegal for 12 minutes of penalty time and 1 goal wiped out. In the second, we had 2 out of 12 illegal for 4 minutes and no goals wiped out. We had a little trouble getting our checks in because one team was shut out; we held one in reserve in case they scored until a goal was scored by the other team with about 8 minutes to go. I told my partner that we were doing a check but told him not to get the goal scorer (since that would have given us 2 checks on team A goal scorers and 0 on team B). We did checks after goals, during timeouts (going into, not coming out of!), and we also did one going into halftime because we'd been holding back waiting for Team B to score. I would say that at most in this game the equipment checks added 1 minute to the game, and probably substantially less.

I hope they stick with this, because I think it will drive down the illegal crosses.

[eme]

Some more thoughts on stick checks, in RANDOM order:

1. Have the R on the game involved in as many as possible...this avoids having to "call him in" when there's a problem. Thus, if you want the R doing the initial FO, do the first check after the second goal.
2. Single gets shooter. Lead signals goal, gets ball, grabs a pole. Trail watches the field/players.
3. One ref measures a stick and does his own ball depth check, etc. Other ref does same for his stick.
4. If doing a FO check, wait until both FOGOs are out there..don't show your hand early.
5. Doing a check end of period, end of half, prior to a period's FO causes little disruption.
6. Do not do one during an injury timeout...makes it appear you are insensitive to the injury.

[LaxRef]

Some more thoughts on stick checks, in RANDOM order:

1. Have the R on the game involved in as many as possible...this avoids having to "call him in" when there's a problem. Thus, if you want the R doing the initial FO, do the first check after the second goal.


This was emphasized at the convention: you CANNOT call in the R if there is a problem, you have to make the call yourself. If you call in the R, one coach is going to lose it depending on whether you flag or don't flag the stick.

[eme]

I must have missed that part with my nap. Your correction notwithstanding, it's still a good policy to have the R involved in as many checks as possible.

[MElaxRef]

To add to eme's recommendation to involve the R in as many checks as possible -

If the R is not involved in the stick check and a stick is tossed, be sure to explain to the R exactly why. That way, when the coach asks for clarification at halftime, the R can do the talking, as suggested / required by the mechanics.

[DanHS]

Two interesting wrinkles in a prep game under modified NCAA rules (time periods shortened)

1. A player's stick was checked a second time in the game following a goal. It was found to be illegal (< 6.5 inches). I am not sure if it was a second stick or if I missed it the first time. The player complained that I checked it earlier - not that the stick was in fact legal. At least two other sticks were illegal.

2. Home team's coach took an illegal stick from the bench area - twice. The first time the scorer/teimekeeper brought it our attention and told us they warned the coach not to remove it. I gave them a bench penalty - feeling kind.

He removed it again. He was standing with it in the coaches area when we got the double horn. That time was USC.

I am sure the assigner will hear a modified story.

[LaxRef]

Two interesting wrinkles in a prep game under modified NCAA rules (time periods shortened)

1. A player's stick was checked a second time in the game following a goal. It was found to be illegal (< 6.5 inches). I am not sure if it was a second stick or if I missed it the first time. The player complained that I checked it earlier - not that the stick was in fact legal. At least two other sticks were illegal.

The only question is whether it's legal right now. Sticks can become illegal through play—don't be close to the edge and you won't have any problems.

2. Home team's coach took an illegal stick from the bench area - twice. The first time the scorer/teimekeeper brought it our attention and told us they warned the coach not to remove it. I gave them a bench penalty - feeling kind.

He removed it again. He was standing with it in the coaches area when we got the double horn. That time was USC.

I am sure the assigner will hear a modified story.

When I confiscate a stick, I always walk over to the table and say—loudly enough for the coaches to hear—"This stick stays on the table for the rest of the game. No one from either team can touch it. If someone touches it, sound a double horn at the next dead ball and I will come over and assess a USC penalty."

[laxfan25]

I also put the stick head under a table leg to discourage curiosity as well.

[DanHS]

Securing the stick is a good idea. If there is a table (Northern VA area) it is often a picnic bench and I would not want to otherwise damage the stick. I will put it with my bag and any contact there would be most unwelcome.

I think I will add a commment to the coaches in the pre-game and the the score keeper and time keeper. No one should examine the crosse no matter how great their curiosity.