How to re-start the game

[madbenlax]

A1 scores a goal and the goal official conducts a random stick check on A1. After official warns A1 not to touch his stick, A1 pulls on the stick strings. A1 receives 1 minute foul and the goal is disallowed. (Other stick dimensions for A1 are legal.) During the random stick check, the opposing defensive player (B1) is discovered to have a deep pocket, and receives a one-minute foul.

Are these simultaneous fouls? The ball is loose and both teams have a one minute foul. Should you go AP and start the ball twenty yards laterally from the goal?


Same situation as described above. A1 pulls stick strings after a stick check is requested. No goal and A1 has a one-minute penalty. (Other stick dimensions for A1 are legal.) During the random stick check, the opposing defensive play (B1) is discovered to have a pinched stick – less than 6 1/2 inches. B1 receives 3 minute foul.

Are these simultaneous fouls? The ball is loose and team A has less total penalty time. Should team A be awarded the ball twenty yards laterally from the goal?

[massref]

The ball shouldn't be considered loose, but a dead ball after goal play is stopped etc.

For the first I would say penalty time is equal, ball not in possession of either team, so go AP outside the box at GE.

For the second situation, dead ball A1 has less penalty time than B1, restart with A possession outside box since the play was stopped when the ball was in A's goal area.

[eme]

I think LaxRef can find it in the rulebook faster than I...new rule this year I believe.
These are considered simultaneous dead ball fouls even though one stick check occurred a few seconds before the other. If penalty time is the same, you FO nine-on-nine.

[madbenlax]

I agree that you are nine on nine, but why would you face off. A1 pulled on the strings, so the goal is taken away. During the stick check neither team is in possession of the ball.

[LaxRef]

A1 scores a goal and the goal official conducts a random stick check on A1. After official warns A1 not to touch his stick, A1 pulls on the stick strings. A1 receives 1 minute foul and the goal is disallowed. (Other stick dimensions for A1 are legal.) During the random stick check, the opposing defensive player (B1) is discovered to have a deep pocket, and receives a one-minute foul.

Are these simultaneous fouls? The ball is loose and both teams have a one minute foul. Should you go AP and start the ball twenty yards laterally from the goal?

This is very tricky!

First of all, they are NOT simultaneous fouls. To be simultaneous, they must either occur during the same live ball OR occur during a dead ball such that sequence cannot be determined. Here, we can determine the sequence. Sort of.

I've always said that if you have illegal sticks on both teams then the fouls are simultaneous because it shouldn't matter whose stick you measure first. But here you have a dead ball USC for adjusting and then you measure the sticks and find one to be illegal. I think you need to treat this as a sequence of dead-ball fouls. So:

A1 adjusts -> Dead ball USC, goal is disallowed, A1 serves 1:00 NR award possession to B

Measure sticks -> Dead ball illegal pocket, 1:00 NR on B1, award possession to A

Admittedly, this doesn't "feel" exactly right, but I think it's the technically correct call. In any case, you're not going to have a hard time selling the call.

Oh, and think about it this way: what would you do differently (besides allowing the goal) if A1 didn't adjust his crosee but instead called you the no-no word that Crash called the umpire in Bull Durham? It's still a USC (maybe more than 1:00, though), so your answer should be the same.


Same situation as described above. A1 pulls stick strings after a stick check is requested. No goal and A1 has a one-minute penalty. (Other stick dimensions for A1 are legal.) During the random stick check, the opposing defensive play (B1) is discovered to have a pinched stick – less than 6 1/2 inches. B1 receives 3 minute foul.

Are these simultaneous fouls? The ball is loose and team A has less total penalty time. Should team A be awarded the ball twenty yards laterally from the goal?

Another good question, but my answer is the same as above: dead-ball fouls enforced in order.

I may put these questions in the next issue of Stripes.

[madbenlax]

Enforce dead-ball fouls in the order they happen.

The goal official (after goal) selected A1’s stick because the official could tell the pocket was deep and when the official placed the ball in the pocket it was confirmed – deep pocket. The single side official ran in from the cone (the goal was scored on a fast break). The single side requested a stick from the defender who pulled on the strings after the request had been made. The defenders foul happen AFTER the goal official confirmed the deep pocket.

You going in order on this one? Deep pocket then the USC foul?

[DanHS]

Both legal - neither adjusted - 10 on 10 faceoff
Both illegal - neither adjusted - 9 on 9 faceoff
Both legal - one adjusted - offending team is man down - time serving NR
Both legal - both adjusted - both teams serving NR
One illegal - neither adjusted - offending team is man down serving
One illegal - one adjusted - same team - serving multiple penalties - time non-releasable
One illegal - one adjusted - different team - the team that adjusted would receive possession

[eme]

Laxref: You are correct. Just for my info...where is the new rule this year about a 9 on 9 FO if the two illegal sticks have same penalty time...??

[LaxRef]

Laxref: You are correct. Just for my info...where is the new rule this year about a 9 on 9 FO if the two illegal sticks have same penalty time...??

It's not new this year, I think it was new last year. It's just a straightforward application of Rule 7-6.

c. Award the ball:

1. When penalty time is awarded and one team incurs less total penalty
time than its opponent, that team shall be awarded the ball.

2. When penalty times are equal or all fouls cancel:

a) If a team has possession or is entitled to possession at the time of
the flag or whistle, that team shall retain possession.

b) If neither team has possession at the time of the fouls, the ball
shall be awarded according to the alternate-possession rule.
(See Rule 4-31.) (Exception: When a faceoff is pending in this
situation, a faceoff will be held.)

[madbenlax]

How could you get 9 on 9 with two illegal sticks and faceoff? The goal is being taken away. You have either dead ball fouls or simultaneous fouls and AP.

[LaxRef]

How could you get 9 on 9 with two illegal sticks and faceoff? The goal is being taken away. You have either dead ball fouls or simultaneous fouls and AP.


He wasn't talking about your situation. Suppose you check A1 and B1 just before a faceoff after a goal scored by A2. Both sticks are 3:00 NR penalties. These are simultaneous dead-ball fouls with equal penalty time and a faceoff pending, so faceoff (NCAA) or AP (NFHS).

[eme]

Let us say to answer this that (new scenario):

A's stick is deep pocket. A's goal is erased if he just scored.
B's stick is deep pocket.

Penalty times are the same. A's goal being erased is considered as part of his illegal stick. It is not a second foul, etc. These are dead ball fouls where sequence cannot be determined. Hence, they are simultaneous fouls. ball was loose, there was going to be a FO. Now , accordig to highlighted rule above, there will still be a FO with nine-on-nine.

I see your point. You're saying that A's goal coming off the board automatically gives it to B. All things being equal thereafter...means we still give it to B

I'd be interested to hear what others think.

[LaxRef]

Let us say to answer this that (new scenario):

A's stick is deep pocket. A's goal is erased if he just scored.
B's stick is deep pocket.

Penalty times are the same. A's goal being erased is considered as part of his illegal stick. It is not a second foul, etc. These are dead ball fouls where sequence cannot be determined. Hence, they are simultaneous fouls. ball was loose, there was going to be a FO. Now , accordig to highlighted rule above, there will still be a FO with nine-on-nine.

I see your point. You're saying that A's goal coming off the board automatically gives it to B. All things being equal thereafter...means we still give it to B

I'd be interested to hear what others think.

This is the type of situation we live for here!

Goal scored, so a faceoff is pending. Now both sticks are illegal with illegal penalty time, so the goal comes off the board and there is no faceoff pending. Clearly no one has possession. Who, if anyone, is entitled to possession?

If the ball was loose and you had an inadvertent whistle, the ball would be awarded by AP(or to the defense if the ball was in the crease). But that's not really what happened.

Normally, if we had a dead ball without a goal being scored, there would either be a faceoff pending to start a period or there would be a team entitled to possession. But that's not the case here.

I would argue that this situation is a stoppage of play with no one entitled to possession, so I think the ball should be awarded by AP if we have equal stick penalties after a goal. I don't think it makes sense to punish the team that scored the goal more by giving the ball to the other team ("Wait a minute! We lose the goal, and have a guy in the box for 3:00 NR, and we lose possession?!"). Of course, there's no rule I can point to to prove this is the correct ruling.

[eme]

Feels good to stump even LaxRef. But if you award the ball to B you do, indeed, punish Team A three times in this scenario and Team B only once.

[laxfan25]

IMO, if you have two illegal stick penalties with equal time, and a goal was scored by one of the illegals - the goal is taken off the board and the ball is awarded by IP. Two dead-ball simultaneous fouls with no possession - use 7-6-c.

[LaxRef]

IMO, if you have two illegal stick penalties with equal time, and a goal was scored by one of the illegals - the goal is taken off the board and the ball is awarded by IP. Two dead-ball simultaneous fouls with no possession - use 7-6-c.


Award by IP or AP? :thinking:

[eme]

He's really thinking of all those games he has been assigned in the UP....

[laxfan25]

You're a Yooper too, eh?
One thing I found in the UP - there are a lot of shops that sell pasties - but very few gentlemen's clubs around - they must export them all!

IP - Intermittent Possession
or possibly a simple typo...

[3rdPersonPlural]

He's really thinking of all those games he has been assigned in the UP....

The OP didn't mention the UP. Or IP and AP for that matter.

I'll CC LR ASAP BTW. K?

[BlueJaysLaxFan]

One thing I found in the UP - there are a lot of shops that sell pasties
One pastie can last you for 3 games, and then some!